Time to begin the rebuild

[ArmyBengal]

This organization and team are an embarrassment. 

When looking back, it was the decision to bring back Marvin after news went out that he was getting fired that did it for me.
I just haven't followed or supported the team in the same way since and I won't be changing back.

I come here to chat and discuss what I hear about or catch here and there, but I'm not invested anymore.
On one hand it's freeing and on another it's sad.  I just have no faith in anything the front office does.
I truly do not believe they care.  If they do, they have an odd way of showing it.

[COB]

6 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

This organization and team are an embarrassment. 

When looking back, it was the decision to bring back Marvin after news went out that he was getting fired that did it for me.
I just haven't followed or supported the team in the same way since and I won't be changing back.

I come here to chat and discuss what I hear about or catch here and there, but I'm not invested anymore.
On one hand it's freeing and on another it's sad.  I just have no faith in anything the front office does.
I truly do not believe they care.  If they do, they have an odd way of showing it.

They care, but not enough to cross the street.

[HoosierCat]

Somehow this only depresses me further.

https://www.bengals.com/news/bengals-founder-paul-brown-named-the-nfl-s-no-1-game-changer

 

[AMPHAR]

Yeah the brilliance of Paul.  Just no pride from his children or grand children. 

 

 

[HoosierCat]

The Quitter speaks.

He’s not wrong.

But he’s still a quitter.

[cincyhokie]

“The (Oakland Raiders) were just a solid organization. ... And we built something special. We got better every year. ... We continued to improve and make strides and so it was just so comforting - coming from Cincinnati, who is a whole nother kind of mess and disaster. So coming from that and then going to Oakland and then all of a sudden, I got to Arizona, I was like, man, this is the NFL. This is how you're supposed to do it. This is right. And it was just so comforting. And so much less stress and pressure.

 

There's so much pressure on quarterbacks as it is. When you have to worry about some idiot making the decision on a roster move, or hiring coaches, or some of the stuff you have to worry about ... when you have that added pressure and stress of not trusting the organization and knowing that they don't know what they're doing, that's just an added amount of stress you don't need as a young player. And going through that and seeing that and then getting to Arizona and going through what I went through in Cincinnati and what I went through in Oakland and then winning and appreciating the wins. And then winning a bunch ... it really let me really enjoy each win. My five years in Arizona were so much fun because we were winning and I knew how to enjoy it because I knew the other side of it. I knew what it was like to be bad, and be on a bad, bad team. ... Unfortunately, it took me too long to get (to Arizona). But it was refreshing, no doubt.

 

From the jump ... everybody, every single person - NFL people, agents, ex-quarterbacks I had talked to that were since retired and moved on - said, 'You can't go to Cincinnati. You can't go to Cincinnati. It's a quarterback graveyard.' ... I, at the time, was arrogant, young dumb, 20-year-old kid, and I was like, 'I'm gonna go there and make a difference. I'm gonna go there and change it. I don't care what all these people are saying.' ... I was naive. I didn't want to believe it and want to hear it. And I thought, 'Well, they haven't had me. I'll go there and change it.' ... I thought I was the difference-maker. I thought, 'The organization doesn't matter. The players on the field are what matters.' And I was 100 percent wrong. All that matters is the organization. Because great organizations get the right players. So I was wrong on that. And it was just an accumulation of so many things.

 

We won our division. We got good one year. We were close to getting good and we needed some key pieces. And I had gone to the organization and was like ... we need a couple players here, a couple players there ... and then of course the offseason comes, and nothing happens. Nothing changes. And it was year after year. In order to win in the NFL ... you've got to be desperate to win a championship. You've got to be all in. The financials and the money side of it are very important obviously to owners, and to everybody that's invested in the organization. But if the most important thing is the financials and the second-most important thing is winning, then you don't have a chance. And it's so important that ownership is willing to do what it takes to win. ... If you just kinda sit there and hope that things fall your way, you've got to get really, really lucky to win a championship. But if you're desperate and you're willing to do what it takes and you'll spend to go get this player. ... You've got to be consistently trying to build a championship team. If you're just kinda sitting there and hoping somebody falls in your lap, it's hard to do it that way. You've got to have the ball bounce your way a number of times in the playoffs. And you've got to get lucky here and get lucky there. You look at New England and there's not a lot of luck. And lot of that is built specifically. You look at what Pittsburgh's done the last 20 years, there's not a lot of luck involved in that ... you look at what Seattle's done, there's not a lot of luck. ... That's not hoping that somebody falls to you in the draft. That's being manipulative of the draft and moving players and churning up rosters and building the right chemistry in the locker room and there's so much that goes into it, it's just not a lucky thing. In order to be successful in the NFL, the organization is of the utmost importance.”

I don't blame Palmer one bit. Never have. He saw something. He said something. Then he did something about it.

[COB]

“When you have to worry about some idiot making the decision on a roster move, or hiring coaches, or some of the stuff you have to worry about ... when you have that added pressure and stress of not trusting the organization and knowing that they don't know what they're doing,”

 

Pretty brutal.  “And knowing that they don’t know what they’re doing.”  Carson’s off the Brown family Christmas card list, that’s for damn sure.  

We could easily be facing Burrow’s agent, or Tua’s agent, pulling the old “don’t draft my guy because he won’t sign with you” gambit.  Probably the smartest thing a young guy could do.  The Bengals just don’t seem serious about investing in the guys up front to protect a young quarterback.  This youngster they’re about to run out there for 8 games behind the worst line in the league is going to get a dose.

[COB]

"8-8 is like winning the Super Bowl for the organization in Cincinnati," - Palmer in the same interview cited above.  

[AMPHAR]

3 hours ago, HoosierCat said:

The Quitter speaks.

He’s not wrong.

But he’s still a quitter.

I think he is wrong and deflecting his failures. 

He could have stayed and been much better than Dalton between the period of 2011-2014.  

He made the mistake and destroyed a better legacy, IMO. 

[HoosierCat]

7 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

I think he is wrong and deflecting his failures. 

He could have stayed and been much better than Dalton between the period of 2011-2014.  

He made the mistake and destroyed a better legacy, IMO. 

Palmer definitely has an “it’s everyone’s fault but mine” thing going on, always has. The fact they went so quickly from terrible in 2010 to good in 2011 amply demonstrates that he deserves a big share of the blame for their poor performance imo. But that said, I think his assessment of the organization is accurate. We saw exactly the behavior he describes this past offseason.

As to whether he’d have been better than Dalton, I dunno. 2005 Palmer, definitely, but he was never right after the knee.

[HoosierCat]

9 hours ago, COB said:

“When you have to worry about some idiot making the decision on a roster move, or hiring coaches, or some of the stuff you have to worry about ... when you have that added pressure and stress of not trusting the organization and knowing that they don't know what they're doing,”

 

Pretty brutal.  “And knowing that they don’t know what they’re doing.”  Carson’s off the Brown family Christmas card list, that’s for damn sure.  

We could easily be facing Burrow’s agent, or Tua’s agent, pulling the old “don’t draft my guy because he won’t sign with you” gambit.  Probably the smartest thing a young guy could do.  The Bengals just don’t seem serious about investing in the guys up front to protect a young quarterback.  This youngster they’re about to run out there for 8 games behind the worst line in the league is going to get a dose.

This is what drives me the craziest: it’s always the oline. When FA first became a thing back in the 90s what was the very first thing to happen? The lost Max Montoya. When they finally got a winner again in 2005 what immediately happened? Oline was allowed to fall apart. When they finally finally got a winner again in 2015, what happened? Bye Whit, bye Zeitler, bye oline, bye winning.

You would think that by now someone in the FO would get a clue. It’s almost enough to make me believe it’s deliberate sabotage, except that would require a level of competence too, and that isn’t something I associate with the Browns.

[AMPHAR]

12 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

Palmer definitely has an “it’s everyone’s fault but mine” thing going on, always has. The fact they went so quickly from terrible in 2010 to good in 2011 amply demonstrates that he deserves a big share of the blame for their poor performance imo. But that said, I think his assessment of the organization is accurate. We saw exactly the behavior he describes this past offseason.

As to whether he’d have been better than Dalton, I dunno. 2005 Palmer, definitely, but he was never right after the knee.

Eh it’s easy to grind an axe when they are 0-8.    He was quiet as a mouse regarding them when they went 5 straight years immediately after him with a young struggling Dalton. 

What’s next?  Are we going listen  to Andy Dalton telling us it’s the front office that stressed him out in the majority of prime time and playoff games?  That’s the reason his QB rating was 20 points lower? 

 

 

 

 

[cincyhokie]

First of all. Palmer is not the first prominent Bengal to point out these kinds of facts about the front office. Get your butt hurt all you want about Palmer. He spoke up and was a huge reason the Bengals had a resurgence in 2011 and on. Their hand was forced to get a new QB and they acquired additional draft picks. 

Second. Who gives a shit who said it? Look at what he's saying instead of attacking the person saying it.

Third. Occam's razor. Evidence and stats don't lie. You can cherry pick some good seasons here and there but what's the average win total the last 29 years?

Last. What evidence is there to say the Bengals can maintain any level of success that could lead to a championship? There is none.

[AMPHAR]

19 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

This is what drives me the craziest: it’s always the oline. When FA first became a thing back in the 90s what was the very first thing to happen? The lost Max Montoya. When they finally got a winner again in 2005 what immediately happened? Oline was allowed to fall apart. When they finally finally got a winner again in 2015, what happened? Bye Whit, bye Zeitler, bye oline, bye winning.

You would think that by now someone in the FO would get a clue. It’s almost enough to make me believe it’s deliberate sabotage, except that would require a level of competence too, and that isn’t something I associate with the Browns.

The o line down turn is front and center.  It doesn’t excuse poor QB play entirely. 

Palmer was a poor performing QB with a good line his last years.   He had 2008 with bad bad o-line.  In 2009 and 2010 that line was coming about Palmer didn’t.

Current day the Front Office (Tobin) and the Lewis staff have set records on bad o line decisions. 

 

 

[ArmyBengal]

I ABSOLUTELY believe damn near EVERYTHING Palmer said. Him having an “everyone’s fault but mine” does not make him wrong.

What has anyone seen out of the front office to think he’s wrong ?? Again, I don’t believe all the different issues we’ve heard from one year to the next, but I’m all in with the “they just don’t care enough” thought.

The Bengals front office is clueless and does not care. I really need to just stop all things Bengals and move into the world of happiness.

[AMPHAR]

Just now, cincyhokie said:

First of all. Palmer is not the first prominent Bengal to point out these kinds of facts about the front office. Get your butt hurt all you want about Palmer. He spoke up and was a huge reason the Bengals had a resurgence in 2011 and on. Their hand was forced to get a new QB and they acquired additional draft picks. 

Second. Who gives a shit who said it? Look at what he's saying instead of attacking the person saying it.

Third. Occam's razor. Evidence and stats don't lie. You can cherry pick some good seasons here and there but what's the average win total the last 29 years?

Last. What evidence is there to say the Bengals can maintain any level of success that could lead to a championship? There is none.

5 straight playoff seasons immediately following his departure is cherry picking?  Lol whatever, Jordan.  Big bro simply quit when times got tough.

 

[cincyhokie]

8 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

I think he is wrong and deflecting his failures. 

He could have stayed and been much better than Dalton between the period of 2011-2014.  

He made the mistake and destroyed a better legacy, IMO. 

So Carl Pickens, Takeo Spikes, Corey Dillion, Lee Johnson, Boomer Esiason, and Andrew Whitworth are all wrong too?

And what about the players we don't hear about. One player in particular that I know of (in the last 3 years) wanted out of Cincinnati for the same reasons. Coaching and culture were his motivators to leave. 

This isn't some blown up conspiracy to smear the Brown family.

[cincyhokie]

2 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

5 straight playoff seasons immediately following his departure is cherry picking?  Lol whatever, Jordan.  Big bro simply quit when times got tough.

 

Who is Jordan? 

2011, 9-7

2012, 9-7

2013, 11-5

2014, 10-6

2015, 12-4

5 straight playoff losses in the first round. They were a decent team but never were going to go anywhere. They needed help in 2013-2015 at center and LB and did nothing to address it.

[AMPHAR]

2 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

I ABSOLUTELY believe damn near EVERYTHING Palmer said. Him having an “everyone’s fault but mine” does not make him wrong.

What has anyone seen out of the front office to think he’s wrong ?? Again, I don’t believe all the different issues we’ve heard from one year to the next, but I’m all in with the “they just don’t care enough” thought.

The Bengals front office is clueless and does not care. I really need to just stop all things Bengals and move into the world of happiness.

5 straight playoff seasons immediately following his departure makes him wrong.

His excuse making is worthless, IMO.

He simply went through a period of bad play and he doesn’t want to own it. 

Now he’s credible because they are 0-8 again 9 seasons after his last. 

Worthless comments from a quitter QB. They got better when he left. 

 

[cincyhokie]

 

Mike Brown's record. It's a .410 winning percentage.

Total 29 Years 186-267-3 

[cincyhokie]

Yeah. Everybody's just making stuff up. Occam's razor.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2018/4/19/17256716/nfl-agents-bengals-least-prepared-contract-talks-not-trustworthy

We debate all the time whether or not NFL teams know what they are doing. I’ve often found myself giving the benefit of the doubt to the teams, considering owners and general managers have a lot of money riding on their decisions and prep, so you’d think they’d do their homework.

Well, USA Today decided to find out how true that is as they polled the people who work directly with teams on behalf of the players: the agents. USA TODAY Sports NFL columnist Jarrett Bell and NFL reporter Lindsay H. Jones polled 25 agents on their thoughts on NFL teams and their top personnel.

Their findings were not great for the Bengals and can be considered quite embarrassing. Cincinnati ranked first as the team that is least prepared for contract negotiations, and Mike Brown also came in fourth among NFL decision-makers agents trust the least.

This pretty much puts a big rain cloud on this offseason, and offseasons going forward. It has been no secret that the Bengals rarely bring in big-name free agents, and in recent years they have been more prone to losing their homegrown talent. This could be a big reason for all that. I mean, according to this poll the agents trust the current organization in Cleveland more than they trust Mike Brown.

[AMPHAR]

3 minutes ago, cincyhokie said:

So Carl Pickens, Takeo Spikes, Corey Dillion, Lee Johnson, Boomer Esiason, and Andrew Whitworth are all wrong too?

And what about the players we don't hear about. One player in particular that I know of (in the last 3 years) wanted out of Cincinnati for the same reasons. Coaching and culture were his motivators to leave. 

This isn't some blown up conspiracy to smear the Brown family.

Dude what are you talking about?  

It’s fact they went to 5 years of playoffs right after Carson’s disaster 2010. 

Clearly the reality he is speaking off doesn’t exist or those results don’t happen.    So?  

Takeo made a similar bad choice.  Is every front office to blame he kept choosing bad teams. He never played in the playoffs several years after the bengals.  His fault. 

Whitworth? He was trying to get an extension here.  He wanted multiple years How is that relevant? 

Talk about cherry picking. 

What about the multiple players that have signed extensions and speak positively?

Palmer is a quitter. I mean they carried his brother for Christ sakes then he’s going to cry about the front office when his play sucks?  GTFO.  

 

[AMPHAR]

15 minutes ago, cincyhokie said:

Who is Jordan? 

2011, 9-7

2012, 9-7

2013, 11-5

2014, 10-6

2015, 12-4

5 straight playoff losses in the first round. They were a decent team but never were going to go anywhere. They needed help in 2013-2015 at center and LB and did nothing to address it.

Uh, Burfict and Bodine?   Two acquisitions tied directly to Lewis.

Not sure exactly what this had to with Palmer quitting and being proven wrong. 

[cincyhokie]

10 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

Dude what are you talking about?  

It’s fact they went to 5 years of playoffs right after Carson’s disaster 2010. 

Clearly the reality he is speaking off doesn’t exist or those results don’t happen.    So?  

Takeo made a similar bad choice.  Is every front office to blame he kept choosing bad teams. He never played in the playoffs several years after the bengals.  His fault. 

Whitworth? He was trying to get an extension here.  He wanted multiple years How is that relevant? 

Talk about cherry picking. 

What about the multiple players that have signed extensions and speak positively?

Palmer is a quitter. I mean they carried his brother for Christ sakes then he’s going to cry about the front office when his play sucks?  GTFO.  

 

Whitworth had plenty of things to say about the Bengals front office. 
 

Whatever, Katie.

[cincyhokie]

3 minutes ago, AMPHAR said:

Uh, Burfict and Bodine?   Two acquisitions tied directly to Lewis.

Not sure exactly what this had to with Palmer quitting and being proven wrong. 

Because it’s to his point that they don’t go to the level of effort to win a championship. They clearly ignored key positions such as center during those years.