Clutch Dalton v. Colin Chokernick

[HoosierCat]

Oh why not, we haven't had a Dalton thread in a while, right? :P/>

FO did some breakdowns in their Quick Reads column this a.m., things like best/worst QB in the red zone or on fourth down.

/>http://www.footballoutsiders.com/quick-reads/2014/week-12-quick-reads

One thing they looked at was best/worst QBs when trailing by 1-8 points in the fourth, and best/worst QBs protecting a small lead in the fourth.

Game-Winning Situations (Tied or Trailing by 8 Points or Less, Fourth Quarter/Overtime)

These are the players who have done the best and worst job of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat.

Best Passers: Nick Foles, PHI, 203 DYAR; Mike Glennon, TB, 134 DYAR; Andy Dalton, CIN, 112 DYAR

Worst Passers: Austin Davis, STL, -199 DYAR; Kirk Cousins, WAS, -86 DYAR; Colin Kaepernick, SF, DYAR, -84

Kapernick also shows up in the list of worst rushers in that situation. Some more detail:

It was an up-and-down half-season for Nick Foles, but he did get credit for three game-winning drives (against Jacksonville, Indianapolis, and Washington) in eight starts. Most of Mike Glennon's production came in the win over Pittsburgh, but he also threw a late go-ahead touchdown against Minnesota. (Someone please explain to us why Tampa bay is starting Josh McCown, again?) Andy Dalton hasn't had a ton of comeback opportunities, but he has been explosive in those situations, going 18-of-24 for 323 yards (13.5 yards per pass!) (!!!) with two touchdowns, one interception, and one sack. Austin Davis, meanwhile, has had 31 "comeback" plays, and has thrown three touchdowns -- all to the wrong team. No offensive touchdowns and five picks? That's bad. Kirk Cousins has been woefully inept, going 4-of-13 for 70 yards with no touchdowns and two picks. So Davis and Cousins have been benched for good reason, but what's up with Colin Kaepernick? He has not thrown a game-tying or go-ahead score in the fourth quarter or overtime this year, going 25-of-44 for 302 yards with one interception and seven sacks in comeback/game-winning opportunities.

And then this:

Protecting A Late Lead (Ahead by 1 to 8 points, Fourth Quarter)

Think of this as the "all-four-minute-drill team." These players have been best at hanging on to the ball and preventing comeback attempts by the other team, or adding insurance scores to secure leads.

Best Passers: Peyton Manning, DEN, 113 DYAR; Tom Brady, NE, 103 DYAR; Philip Rivers, SD, 81 DYAR

Worst Passers: Colin Kaepernick, SF, -75 DYAR; Nick Foles, PHI, -50 DYAR; Tony Romo, DAL, -37 DYAR

So far he's also worst in the league protecting a late lead. Basically this year, when it matters in Q4, he stinks.

So, anyone still want Kapernick? :)/>

[ArmyBengal]

I always think it's hard to say. Who knows what Kapernick might have been capable of with the Bengals offensive roster ??

He might have been one of the all time greats. Then again, he didn't have to start right away in San Fran and if he had to, it might have turned out so poorly that he became an afterthought in the league.

We took Dalton because they thought he was the better player for what the team was trying to do and they have done a good job of building around him.

It's not Dalton's fault that some guys get injured along the way.

The things that are Dalton's concern, I think he has tried hard to correct and/or improve.

Sometimes that has worked out and sometimes it hasn't.

Bottomline for me is that I am happy where we are as a team with Dalton, while also being happy to know they can move on after 2015 if they wish.

[HoosierCat]

Well, if anyone wants Kap, 9ers fans are ready to run him out of town on a rail after tonight. Here's one:

On CalTrain back from game and as much flak as I can give Roman (which he does partially deserve), 80 percent of this team's failure is due to stupid f**king kaepernick. I saw receivers (including Vernon Davis, who's been flamed for his play) streaking open all day and this one-read, piss for brains, self-absorbed, teenage baby giraffe continually couldn't see them. And we're talking plays that would have went for forty, fifty, sixty yards.

He can't even decide to run or do that well anymore. I've seen enough and I'm done. Teams know how to play him and he cant adjust because he's not any good.

Maybe he should stay off instagram and act like a man instead of a 13 year old.

#idontgettired...of course you don't. Because you go 3 and out every time you ass hat.

/>http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/178789-kaepernick-thread-2014-15-season/page781/

Nothing I love more that miserable 9ers fans. :sure:/>

[TJJackson]

except miserable Steelers fans

[HoosierCat]

Some interesting Dalton conversation in footballoutsiders' Audibles column today. These are from emails the writers trade back and forth during the game.

/>http://www.footballoutsiders.com/audibles/2014/audibles-line-week-13

Cian Fahey: What does Andy Dalton have to do to find his way to the bench? Seriously. Nobody ever even mentions this as a potential move, not least the Bengals.

As I type, the scorelines 24-0, 38-0, 21-3 and 28-6 exist. This has been a weird day and it feels like some teams have simply given up.

Tom Gower: The Bengals selected A.J. McCarron in the draft. He was the only quarterback in the draft who wasn't better than Dalton was at anything. Bizarre pick, even in the fifth round.

Aaron Schatz: I need to speak up for Andy Dalton here. The problem with "shouldn't Andy Dalton be pulled" is "what else is there?" You aren't going to be going Wildcat with Giovani Bernard taking snaps, right? I may win the All-Time Jason Campbell Apologist award but that was like six years ago that I was writing pleasant things about Jason Campbell. And A.J. McCarron probably isn't any better.

Andy Dalton has an average DVOA. He has an average DVOA pretty much every year. He has the benefit of one of the best receivers in the game, and usually a good offensive line, but that offensive line has had tons of problems with Gerald McCoy today and you can't blame him for that. Dalton is not a bad quarterback. He's an average NFL quarterback. Not everybody can be a top ten quarterback. What gets me about Dalton is that it feels like he should be much more consistent than he actually is. I don't have any research to back this up -- maybe that's an idea for the offseason -- but doesn't it *feel* like a quarterback who is primarily dependent on short accuracy like Dalton should be more consistent from game to game than a quarterback who is primarily dependent on arm strength like Joe Flacco or Matthew Stafford? And yet Dalton has really great games like he had against the Saints a couple weeks ago and total, horrid stinkers like today or every single time he has ever been on national television since the day television was invented.

Andrew Healy: For a quarterback with average DVOA, Dalton sure seems like he has an awfully high variance game-to-game. Not sure if that squares with the data over his career so far.

Just one more thought on Dalton: Watching him against the Browns a few weeks ago, I wondered if there might be something personal going on that caused him to be off. We forget that these guys are human beings sometimes, and people differ in their abilities to block stuff out. I have no idea if that's true, but he just looked so out of sorts and off-field stuff has to be a factor sometimes when players look that bad. Right no cue, Dalton with a nice throw down the left seam to AJ Green for the touchdown that puts the Bengals ahead 14-10.

Rob Weintraub: Dalton has a new baby at home. As any parent knows, that is something of a distraction. I remember when Carson Palmer's twins were born he went into a two month funk.

Meanwhile, Cincy just failed on the surprise onside kick. Works for everyone else, but not the Bengals. Like the call though.

Late here today but the real issue from what I've seen is that Marshall Newhouse is getting overrun at right tackle, and the Bengals have moved Clint Boling over there at times to try and sustain some blocks, with Mike Pollak playing left guard. But the Bucs, even without Lavonte David and Clinton McDonald, are in the backfield on virtually every play.

Aaron Schatz: Didn't Melvin Mora hit .230 the year his wife had sextuplets?

Rob Weintraub: It's a study/story idea I've wanted to do for a long time, except so far as I know there is no "new parent athlete" database out there, and when interviewed, I strongly suspect most players would hesitate to blame any outside forces for their struggles. But common sense says something like a new baby has to be a factor in your job performance.

This is what I've been saying for a while about Dalton--no, he's not great, and when he stinks he really stinks. But he is mentally tough, does more right than wrong on a consistent basis, and has his team in play for a fourth straight playoff appearance, unprecedented in franchise history. And more to the point, who's better that's available? Everyone always says to trade for this guy or draft that guy, almost all of whom turn out to be worse than Dalton. Yes, I'd prefer Rodgers or Roethlisberger to be my quarterback. Alas, they ain't for sale.

[ArmyBengal]

He was the only quarterback in the draft who wasn't better than Dalton was at anything.

But wait, McCarron was suppose to be the starter this year !?!?!?

Sorry, I found that quote amusing.

Seriously though, I don't think there should be any talk of benching Dalton.

This isn't Cleveland where there is a 1st round QB sitting on the bench waiting for an opportunity.

I like Campbell, but don't think you pull Dalton when he has his moments of silliness.

I see where the amount of IV bags Dalton got before the game is now up to 3.

The next thing you know, the report will be where they had to filter all of his blood prior to the game.

They want to know what's up with him in that game ?? Well Sanu had him vomiting about 20+ times prior to the game.

I'm no longer a medical person, but i'm thinking that might be a good place to start.

What does that tell you about the other QB's that the team is willing to throw Mr. Barfbag out there instead of starting them against the Bucs ??

[volcom69]

Yea I didnt know he had the flu till halftime I heard Lap talking about it. He defenitly toughed that game out, many guys can't even stand up with the flu. I'm sure all of the media will not take the time to read about his illness, and just assume it was another sucky Dalton game. I was pissed about the ints but that was before I knew of the flu.

[ArmyBengal]

Oh, i'm still not pleased with the INT's, but when you walk out of a visiting stadium with the "W", you just say thank you and keep moving.

Like I said before, make sure Dalton is eating his Flintstones and get him ready to go for the Steelers.

[HoosierCat]

I see where the amount of IV bags Dalton got before the game is now up to 3.

The next thing you know, the report will be where they had to filter all of his blood prior to the game.

Wait until the playoffs, he'll be back in the second half of games after having open heart surgery at halftime.

Seriously what I find amusing is that it comes out that Dalton played with the flu and everyone's all "grumble, grumble well even so he has to play better, grumble grumble." Now imagine that it had been Ben Roethlisberger barfing his guts out. Today the media would be full of stories about super-tough Ben gutting it out and OMG he could have died from dehydration give him another ring now!!!!!

What does that tell you about the other QB's that the team is willing to throw Mr. Barfbag out there instead of starting them against the Bucs ??

It tells me we'll be in the market for a backup QB again next year.

[TJJackson]

I'd still say we need some DL (especially pass rushers) and OL help as top priority in this year's draft

GIMME A (COUPLE O') LINEMAN!

But if a talented QB not named Jameis falls substantially in the draft, I do think we need to pick him up

[ArmyBengal]

I think McCarron is obviously the backup QB for 2015 and doubt anything will change that thought.

I'm totally on board with offensive and defensive linemen for the 2015 draft.

Linebacker has to get some serious consideration as well depending on how things fall.

Honestly, if Dalton really puked up his guts that many times prior to the game, i'm surprised he was able to play.

If I puke once, i'm lucky to get out of bed.

[HoosierCat]

I haven't paid a lot of attention to the draft, but in the mocks/big boards I've skimmed it seems like there are a lot of DE prospects ranked late in the first/early second. That could be a spot where BPA and need align neatly. Ourlads just did a new big board over the holiday weekend and had like 5-6 DEs in the 25-35 range.

As for QBs, the top guys are Winston and Mariota and they'll be long gone by the time Cincy picks. Probably the next guy is the UCLA kid, Hundley. As prospects go, you could do a lot worse.

[kingwilly]

I'd still say we need some DL (especially pass rushers) and OL help as top priority in this year's draft

GIMME A (COUPLE O') LINEMAN!

But if a talented QB not named Jameis falls substantially in the draft, I do think we need to pick him up

There is no way I'd draft Winston, apart from the immaturity concerns.

I think they need to look at WR, OT, and LB in the first three rounds. QB should be an afterthought.

[ArmyBengal]

I would say WR as well, but I can't say as i'm overwhelmed with the prospects at this point.

I don't want another small, slot type of WR and the big ones are limited.

You either have to get them early, take a chance on issues, or wait until later.

We need another LB for sure. Outside ?? Is Maualuga back ?? Does Burfict move ??

I could guess that we see Lamur, Maualuga, and Burfict again in 2015.

If so, how high do we draft depth ??

Linemen just seem like the logical way to go for me.

You couldn't go wrong draft almost any line spot on either side of the ball.

Center might be the one spot we are good at for now, as I think Bodine will only improve.

[HoosierCat]

Before we go drafting a wide receiver, can we see a bit more of James Wright? As Marvin said today in his presser, every time they've called on him, he's responded. 3/59 yesterday, plus a run for 6. If he keeps growing, the combo of Green, Sanu, Jones and Wright may be pretty good.

[ArmyBengal]

I'm all for seeing what James Wright can do with more opportunities.

I'm also for seeing how the Bengals are going to handle AJ, Jones, and Sanu all being FA's after next year.

That doesn't mean they need to rush out and drop a 1st on a WR, but I don't think it should be ignored either.

What about another TE ?? If the line of thought is Gresham being gone (please, please, please) then that is certainly an option.

Curious how the comp picks are going to shake out for them as well.

What was this thread about ??

[HoosierCat]

I am reluctantly coming to the conclusion that Gresham will be re-signed. The biggest reason is that he's all they have. Alex Smith will turn 33 next spring, Eifert remains more potential than reality, and all that's left after him on the roster are taxi squad types.

Nope, The Villain will be back in 2015.

[ArmyBengal]

If he's back, I will start calling him the villain.

I thought he was just playing that up, in a oh poor pitiful me act, but i'm going to roll with it if he returns.

He ranks up there in players that are seemingly can't miss prospects with tons of potential and while decent, nothing to really write home about.

And his little celebrations after picking up a 1st down or kicking his fumbled ball into the endzone for a TD are just stupid.

I use to call them silly, but i'm done with that. Stupid is no way to go through life so please stop Jermaine.

[redsbengalsbucks]

I think McCarron is obviously the backup QB for 2015 and doubt anything will change that thought.

I'm totally on board with offensive and defensive linemen for the 2015 draft.

Linebacker has to get some serious consideration as well depending on how things fall.

Honestly, if Dalton really puked up his guts that many times prior to the game, i'm surprised he was able to play.

If I puke once, i'm lucky to get out of bed.

I'm to the point where I'm mad the coaches left a player on the field after knowing what he was going through. Campbell had to be a better option yesterday, unless he was down ill as well.

[HoosierCat]

From combing through all the post-game comments, I get the impression that Andy had a stomach flu bug and it hit at the last minute, Saturday/Sunday. That would mean he went through practice as the starter all week and Campbell would have just gotten whatever garbage reps he usually gets. I think if he had gotten sick earlier and Campbell had gotten more practice time they might have made a different call.

But yeah, in general I agree that this coaching staff is far too reluctant to sit a guy when he is obviously struggling. Andy should have been benched in the Cleveland game, it was blindingly obvious that he wasn't on that day and wasn't getting better. At least against Tampa while he was terrible in the first half he came back strongly in the second.

[GapControl]

Compare Gresham to Gates career numbers and you won't see much difference. Imagine how much better Gresham would be with Brees and Rivers throwing to him.

[volcom69]

Compare Gresham to Gates career numbers and you won't see much difference. Imagine how much better Gresham would be with Brees and Rivers throwing to him.

Maybe, but it's also because we had OC in here that didnt use the TE like some other teams. Now he stays in a lot to help block and give Dalton time, things might be different if Eifert were back. One thing I know is he tries harder, and fights harder then anyone out there, he just needs to be carful with the ball and not to turn it over. He is quickly becoming a great blocking TE as well.

[ArmyBengal]

I was going to say imagine how much better he would be if he caught and was more careful with the ball.

We can compare stats all day, just look at Dalton. They don't however tell the whole story.

I will give some in the thought of Dalton being inconsistent, which could lead to others inconsistency, but him droping passes and poor ball security aren't something you can pin on anyone else but him. I will also say that I do like his blocking ability these days.

Maybe I just expected more out of him. I just remember him being this can't miss kind of guy, who would change our offense.

That hasn't exactly happened. Maybe i'm still pissed about the playoff game that was put on his shoulders, only to watch him crumble.

[Wraith]

Not to mention Jermaine is good for at least one drive killing penalty a game.

[redsbengalsbucks]

I was going to say imagine how much better he would be if he caught and was more careful with the ball.

We can compare stats all day, just look at Dalton. They don't however tell the whole story.

I will give some in the thought of Dalton being inconsistent, which could lead to others inconsistency, but him droping passes and poor ball security aren't something you can pin on anyone else but him. I will also say that I do like his blocking ability these days.

Maybe I just expected more out of him. I just remember him being this can't miss kind of guy, who would change our offense.

That hasn't exactly happened. Maybe i'm still pissed about the playoff game that was put on his shoulders, only to watch him crumble.

That playoff game is very hard to forget, if he makes even half of the catches that he dropped the Bengals probably win that game.