Dalton vs Flacco

[gregcook68]

I tried this thread over at the bad forum to no avail.

If you look at stats, seasonal, and playoff, minus the 2012 playoffs, Flacco and Dalton have very similar stats and inconsistencies, Flacco having the edge with the superior arm to Dalton.

Even though the Ravens have made the playoffs in all of his first 5 seasons, Flacco, himself, has not played well until last year.

FLACCO/DALTON FIRST 2 YEAR COMPARISON:

Flacco First Regular Season

2008

Comp Atts Pct TDs Ints Yards

257 428 60 14 12 2971

Dalton First Regular Season

2011

Comp Atts Pct TDs Ints Yards

300 516 58 20 13 2954

Flacco Second Regular Season

2009

Comp Atts Pct TDs Ints Yards

315 499 63.1 21 12 3613

Dalton Second Regular Season

2012

Comp Atts Pct TDs Ints Yards

329 528 62 27 16 3669

Flacco First Playoff Stats

2008

Comp Atts Pct TDs Ints 3 Games Played

33 75 44 1 3

Dalton First Playoff Stats

2011

Comp Atts Pct TDs Ints 1 Game Played

27 42 64.3 0 3

Flacco Second Year Playoff Stats

Comp Atts Pct TDs Ints 2 Game Played

24 45 53 0 3

Dalton Second Year Playoff Stats

Comp Atts Pct TDs Ints 1 Game Played

14 30 46.7 0 1

Outside of the 2012 playoffs, where Flacco played out of his mind, and was clearly deserved the MVP, and the fact that it was his 5th season as an NFL QB......do you believe that the success Flacco and the Ravens have had is, in a big part, because of that reliable consistent Raven defense, and the weapons (Ray Rice, Bouldin, Jacoby, to name a few)?

[COB]

Yes, the Ravens are a football team. No way are they a one man show. I think he's better than Andy right now. Andy in year five? We'll see. I'd take it.

[HoosierCat]

The comparison between Dalton and Flacco has been drawn before and it's a valid one IMO. I'm not even sure that Joe's arm is significantly better. Look at last Thursday's game. Flacco tossed two long bombs early, both underthrown. And there have been plenty of guys on both teams to point at as responsible for good or bad things other than the QB.

I think the impatience with Dalton boils down to a couple things. One is that Bengals fans are in general impatient. 20 years of losing will do that to a fan base. I have memories of both Super Bowls so I at least have some good days to dwell on, but for anyone born after, oh, about 1985, all they know is losing. And what modest success they've had under Marvin has teased rather than satisfied. And so the frustration boils hotter.

The other thing is that Dalton continues to be widely dismissed. It's been that way since the day he was drafted. The media and many fans venerate the QB position far beyond its actual importance, and a second round QB cannot succeed with them by definition. Such a QB is not elite since he was not drafted in the top 10 and since you absolutely need an elite QB we can't win with Dalton. QED.

[cincyhokie]

It's not that Andy can't throw the ball long, it's that his intermediate passes lack an accurate strength and speed. Granted some of his interceptions are not his fault, but you can clearly see a lack of "zip" (compared to Flacco) on the ball within that 10-30 yard range.

I don't even know how to classify it. When I played baseball I could throw the ball consistently from the outfield on a single hop or a straight line fly (I had a pretty damn good outfield arm). When I tried to pitch the ball of the mound, I had average to below average velocity. I could rarely strike a batter out with velocity. But I could throw a runner out from 1st to 3rd from right field frequently.

All that being said, I think Flacco has better arm strength. Though, I do think that Dalton has more than enough arm strength, and "zip" (though it's average) to be a consistent QB for years to come. It's more of his mechanics and reads with him that are his problem right now.

[gregcook68]

Well said to both Hooiser and Cincy! So nice to actually have logical and rational

discussions for a change!

[HoosierCat]

Yah, I've heard the "zip" argument before. I don't think there is much, if anything, there. If like me you are stuck watching a lot of non-Bengals ball, it's obvious there aren't many QBs throwing 20-30 yard darts, and under that range Andy is as good as anyone.

If there is any place that I think Dalton falls down, it's making something happen after a play goes south. Once he is forced to scramble he may as well throw the ball away. And when he tries to run a light slap on his leg is enough to bring him down. He's basically the anti-roethlisberger in that respect.

[cincyhokie]

Yah, I've heard the "zip" argument before. I don't think there is much, if anything, there. If like me you are stuck watching a lot of non-Bengals ball, it's obvious there aren't many QBs throwing 20-30 yard darts, and under that range Andy is as good as anyone.

If there is any place that I think Dalton falls down, it's making something happen after a play goes south. Once he is forced to scramble he may as well throw the ball away. And when he tries to run a light slap on his leg is enough to bring him down. He's basically the anti-roethlisberger in that respect.

Good assessment.

[ArmyBengal]

I've said it many times this season.

When looking at Dalton throw the ball deep, he has heaved them 50+ yards. Some to the good, some to the bad.

My question is, how many QB's can throw the ball 50+ yards and have it fall right in stride with the WR ??

I've watched all the so-called "elite" QB's this season have the exact same problems.

Overthrown, underthrown, INT's, whatever. Maybe Dalton doesn't have the same percentage, but that isn't how this offense is set to run anyway.

With the type of offense they run, Dalton is all they need (minus the recent turnovers).

What did "Air Brat" and Carson's arm get this team ??

Give Dalton time and a dedication to running the ball and this offense is potent.

Flacco ?? Most said the same things about his inconsistency (and are again) until he went on that crazy postseason run last year and won it all.

However, that wasn't all on him either.

[gregcook68]

I've said it many times this season.

When looking at Dalton throw the ball deep, he has heaved them 50+ yards. Some to the good, some to the bad.

My question is, how many QB's can throw the ball 50+ yards and have it fall right in stride with the WR ??

I've watched all the so-called "elite" QB's this season have the exact same problems.

Overthrown, underthrown, INT's, whatever. Maybe Dalton doesn't have the same percentage, but that isn't how this offense is set to run anyway.

With the type of offense they run, Dalton is all they need (minus the recent turnovers).

What did "Air Brat" and Carson's arm get this team ??

Give Dalton time and a dedication to running the ball and this offense is potent.

Flacco ?? Most said the same things about his inconsistency (and are again) until he went on that crazy postseason run last year and won it all.

However, that wasn't all on him either.

Good stuff Army! Interesting how both Flacco and Dalton inherited bad teams. 2007 Ravens 5-11, 2010 Bengals 4-12.

Ray Rice was a rookie in 2008 along with Flacco.

2008 Flacco

Comp Atts Pct TDs Ints Yards

257 428 60 14 12 2971

2011 Dalton

Comp Atts Pct TDs Ints Yards

300 516 58 20 13 2954

Since both QBs stats were pretty much identical, yet the Ravens were 2 and 1 in the playoffs, in spite of Flacco's sub part stats:

Comp Atts Pct TDs Ints 3 Games Played

33 75 44 1 3

What does that tell us? It tells me that Flacco inherited an established veteran defense.

I think the Bengal defense, this year, despite the injuries and youth, may be close to that same point this year!

Time will tell!

[ArmyBengal]

That's the biggest difference when looking at both Flacco and Rottenfurburger.

They both went to teams that had top 5 defenses and few other concerns.

I think people forget how much Dalton has faced and been asked to overcome since being drafted.

None of this is to say he doesn't have things to improve, because he does.

[gregcook68]

That's the biggest difference when looking at both Flacco and Rottenfurburger.

They both went to teams that had top 5 defenses and few other concerns.

I think people forget how much Dalton has faced and been asked to overcome since being drafted.

None of this is to say he doesn't have things to improve, because he does.

Spot on!

One of the reasons Marvin and Jay said they chose Dalton, because of his intelligence, and passion to work hard and his mental toughness.

Also because he has a very similar demeanor that Flacco has. Very stead, doesn't get rattled and give up when he messes up, and doesn't get too pumped up or showboat like Newton, Rodgers, and Kaepernik, to name a few.

[gregcook68]

I am so hoping they can leave San Diego 8-4!!! Not just because of the obvious fan thing, but as an old baseball coach, I've always had a soft spot for those humble, hard working players, that make up a lot of this team.

I just want the Bengals to get some deserved respect!

I really think this game today, is the pivotal game, not as far as winning the division necessarily, but to gain the confidence to win out, with only one away game left at Pittsburgh.

[volcom69]

I think Jay Gruden and Dalton need to watch the Eagles game tape, and learn from them how to use the 2 TE. How to work the middle of the field with those TE. Not to mention Foles makes it look that easy.

Just saying I'm still not sure what kind if offense they are trying to be, but I never see them use the middle of the field.

[jjakq27]

What did "Air Brat" and Carson's arm get this team ??

Give Dalton time and a dedication to running the ball and this offense is potent.

I agree. I think Andy has had a much shorter leash here because of Carson. Many of us would excuse away Carson's issues for years but Andy has never really gotten that same benefit. But that's OK. I think the QB needs to be held to a high standard.

I hope that Andy will settle into a more consistent mode the rest of the year. I think we have seen the highs of what he is capable of when he is in the groove.

Going forward, I am still not sure if he is the long term (next three to five years) answer at QB.

[ArmyBengal]

I don't know what to make of Dalton.

I like him and know he has the ability, but we keep seeing inconsistent Andy.

That sh*t is just frustrating when looking at what this team is capable of.

Moving forward, I want to see the o-line to stay this way from here on out.

Pound the hell out of the ball and set Dalton up early with some easy screens or whatever.

I wish I knew where exactly to point the finger, because Gruden still frustrates the hell out of me as well.

Some of the playcalling can be seen coming from a mile away.

[HoosierCat]

A couple thoughts.

One, y'all do know that Peyton Manning throws interceptions too? Same for Brady, Brees, Wilson, and all the other QBs. They all also sail passes, throw too high, throw behind, miss open receivers, don't see open receivers and throw balls into the dirt.

And just like Dalton, they also make great throws, throw touchdowns, thread needles (did you see that throw to Hawk yesterday?) and all the rest.

I would humbly suggest that, in general, Bengals fan expectations for the QB, and really for the team as a whole, are a wee bit too high. I don't mean that in the sense that expectations of the playoffs or a Super Bowl are too high, but the expectation that every player be Superman, or he sucks. I mad my usual mistake last night of lurking on some other boards, and it's clear there are more than a few fans who just won't be happy until the entire offense is made up of sharks with friggin lasers and the defense stocked with blaster armed battle droids.

The Bengals under Dalton are 8-4. That's not all because of Andy, but some of it is, both on the 8 and the 4 side. Same for the rest of the offense, the defense and special teams. There's a lot more here to like than dislike. I for one am determined to enjoy the ride.

[gregcook68]

What keeps my peace Army is that no matter even if we think we have it figured out we have no control over it and makes no difference. Because the coaches are going to do what they think is best regardless weather we agree or disagree. I still think Andy Dalton is every bit as good as Flacco and if Flacco can win with a team around him so can Andy.

[gregcook68]

Great point Hoosier! I can remember on the other form when Dalton threw that across the body pic for his first red zone pic. Everybody was going crazy blasting him even the media was. How quickly they forgot Peyton Manning took his team out of the playoffs last year with across the body interception against the Ravens.and he's probably the veteran quarterback its been in the league the longest right now.

[Wraith]

For me the more apt comparison is Ben Roethlisberger, look at his stats the first three years.....

2006 Pittsburgh Steelers

15 15 280 469 59.7 3,513 7.5 18 23 46 280 75.4 32 98 3.1 2 5 2

2005 Pittsburgh Steelers

12 12 168 268 62.7 2,385 8.9 17 9 23 129 98.6 31 69 2.2 3 2 1

2004 Pittsburgh Steelers

14 13 196 295 66.4 2,621 8.9 17 11 30 213 98.1 56 144 2.6 1 2 2

Compare those to Andy,

2013 Cincinnati Bengals

12 12 266 433 61.4 3,144 7.3 22 16 26 156 85.1 45 119 2.6 0 4 3

2012 Cincinnati Bengals

16 16 329 528 62.3 3,669 6.9 27 16 46 229 87.4 47 120 2.6 4 4 4

2011 Cincinnati Bengals

16 16 300 516 58.1 3,398 6.6 20 13 24 160 80.4 37 152 4.1 1 4 2

[ArmyBengal]

A couple thoughts.

One, y'all do know that Peyton Manning throws interceptions too? Same for Brady, Brees, Wilson, and all the other QBs. They all also sail passes, throw too high, throw behind, miss open receivers, don't see open receivers and throw balls into the dirt.

And just like Dalton, they also make great throws, throw touchdowns, thread needles (did you see that throw to Hawk yesterday?) and all the rest.

I would humbly suggest that, in general, Bengals fan expectations for the QB, and really for the team as a whole, are a wee bit too high. I don't mean that in the sense that expectations of the playoffs or a Super Bowl are too high, but the expectation that every player be Superman, or he sucks. I mad my usual mistake last night of lurking on some other boards, and it's clear there are more than a few fans who just won't be happy until the entire offense is made up of sharks with friggin lasers and the defense stocked with blaster armed battle droids.

The Bengals under Dalton are 8-4. That's not all because of Andy, but some of it is, both on the 8 and the 4 side. Same for the rest of the offense, the defense and special teams. There's a lot more here to like than dislike. I for one am determined to enjoy the ride.

I know I understand all of that and have made the same arguments.

It's just the recent struggles with INT's makes things appear very challenging.

Some of those INT's have been so ugly, that it pisses me off.

I know not all have been on Dalton, but still. It's a challenge to watch it.

[HoosierCat]

I know not all have been on Dalton, but still. It's a challenge to watch it.

Which is why I recommend listening to the radio broadcast while watching another game. Far less stressful somehow, at least for me.

[ArmyBengal]

I know not all have been on Dalton, but still. It's a challenge to watch it.

Which is why I recommend listening to the radio broadcast while watching another game. Far less stressful somehow, at least for me.

Actually I WAS listening on the radio when he threw the INT in yesterday's game.

I was on my way to a family dinner when it happened. Lucky I didn't wreck the d*mn car.

Watching it on the replay just left me scratching my head as I had already worked through the anger.

Seriously, what the hell was that ??

It didn't change the game and for that I am happy.

[HoosierCat]

Watching it on the replay just left me scratching my head as I had already worked through the anger.

Seriously, what the hell was that ??

Thay asked Dalton about it after the game and he said it was basically intended as a jump ball for AJ. It was something they had been talking about in practice leading up to the game. But there was pressure on the play and he rushed the throw, and you heard the result.

[ArmyBengal]

Watching it on the replay just left me scratching my head as I had already worked through the anger.

Seriously, what the hell was that ??

Thay asked Dalton about it after the game and he said it was basically intended as a jump ball for AJ. It was something they had been talking about in practice leading up to the game. But there was pressure on the play and he rushed the throw, and you heard the result.

I have no issue with them throwing some jumps balls to AJ, because he will come down with more than his fair share, but that was ugly.

I thought the pressure was a little late getting there to bother the throw, but i'm sure it looks different on the field.

It sure was ugly seeing that pass sail into the sky.

[HoosierCat]

Agreed, the pressure wasn't all that bad. Dalton has generally been better this year about not seeing ghosts in the pocket but I think he did on that play. To me it just speaks to a lack of confidence in the middle of the line.