Bengals Formula

[BengalPimp]

So the Bengals added another 3 former 1st Rd Busts this offseason. Whether in Free Agency or in trade it seems as though they PRIMARILY pursue everyone else's 1st Rd Busts.

It's been a mixed bag, but add Harvey, Allen, and Anderson to the long list that includes guys like Benson, "Pac Man" Jones, Manny Lawson, Matt Jones, Reggie Nelson, Deltha O'Neal, etc.

**Honorable mention to Taylor Mays a supposed "1st Rd Talent" who slipped to the 2nd...

Who's next? Vernon Gholston?...sheesh......

It's no secret those guys ALL came cheap. Where they did get some production out of some of those guys, this "model" has also proven it won't get you over the hump......Time to start targeting some established talent Mikey boy.....With this team being so close, they are only a couple of LEGIT players away, now is not the time to add more reclamation projects. ESPECIALLY WITH THE MONEY YOU HAD TO SPEND!

Needless to say, the only signing I am good with, is that of a former undrafted free agent (BGE) not these bums.

The draft can't come soon enough for me............

[redsbengalsbucks]

I dont have any problem with signing any of these players for backups and get some upgraded talent in the draft.

All of these players have talent and can produce in the NFL, they might never be stars, but as backups they will be solid.

[Kazkal]

my only issue I hate is the one year Contracts should try least lock em up for Two so if their pleasant surprise like Thomas Howard.

[Stripes]

How has the model "proven" anything at all? It's not like the Bengals have been doing it this way since 1968. These are decent players who just happened to be first round picks. That they haven't quite lived up to that is completely irrelevant to their actual VALUE in the present.

[Stripes]

I also don't know that this team is "so close" to anything noteworthy. Do you really think shooting their wad on a big name or two would turn them into a Super Bowl contender? It's a talented young team with a high ceiling, but getting your ass whooped in the wildcard round doesn't make you "close".

[skyline]

I'm amazed at how short-sighted people are. Yes, they have a lot of money to spend, but they're also able to see all of the big contracts coming up in the future for guys they know they don't want to lose. Far better to spend money on those guys than to go out and shoot your entire wad on big-name free agents that are overpaid and most likely not worth the investment.

Draft well, try to extend your guys before they become free agents if possible, and add thoughtfully throughout free agency with guys that are good values and that provide good depth. Why on earth do you care where they were drafted x years ago?

Seems like a good formula to me.

[volcom69]

Yea I have no problem with what they did at all. There were a lot of holes to fill and a lot of depth to get back and they did that. So they get more players more depth by getting these guys instead of getting 1 big splash guy. If Zim can get the most out of these guys like he has others like Nelson, then it will be even better then I thought.

[Scottishbengal]

I'm good with what the Bengals have done.

Perhaps these "1st round busts" will blossom here - perhaps where they were there was personality clashes with coaches, teamates, perhaps they were mis-assigned or not playing to their natural strengths. Bengals players have gone onto pastures new and produced more effectively - such as Justin Smith.

Nope, I'm good with what they've done, solid gains and upgrades. I'd rather have a team of players playing as a team, then a team of individuals playing together.

[derekshank]

People who wanted a big name free agent didn't do the math on how many free agents the Bengals had leaving. That is a big part of the reason there was so much cap space. There were 26 Bengal role players entering free agency.

The Bengals have signed 17 players so far. The contracts for Sims, Collins, Harvey, and Anderson have not been disclosed yet. But lets say they are all cheap... and signed for an average of $2 million/year. That means that the Bengals have already spent $33 million of their reported $49.9 million in cap space. That leaves just $17 million in current cap space.

And they're not done. They just hosted Matt Roth and are potentially still interested in bringing back guys like Manny Lawson, Bobbie Williams, and Brandon Johnson.

I think there is a good chance we'll also see extensions for a few guys (Carlos Dunlap, Geno Atkins, Jermaine Gresham and possibly MIchael Johnson). I also expect Dalton and AJ Green to get extensions possibly as soon as next year... and those contracts will be much more lucrative than their current deals (especially Dalton's). So their current $17 million in cap space is not as much as you think.

Cincy will continue to build through the draft. As for this FA period... it's been productive. I'm satisfied.

[UK Bengal]

Dalton and green cannot be given new deals til 2014 at earliest due to the rookie wage scale but I can envision Carlos and geno getting new deals during this season

[kingwilly]

I don't know why you mention Lawson. What is killing me here is that a guy like Manny Lawson, a r1 "non-bust" comes here, does a great job and is still un-signed.

SIGN THE MAN>PAY THE MAN.

Howard was a r1 player, and he is certainly no bust, and is an anchor on the D, to me.

As for those others you mention, the only one I really don't see contributing is Harvey. He really cannot play. The others have game. Coach them up.

I won't complain about guys like Benson, O'Neal, Nelson. They've all come in and fit the scheme, and been able to contribute. Remember, were it not for Carson's caved knee, 2005 was THE year of the Bengal. Deltha led the NFL in INT's and went to the PB.

Benson, though not what he was, worked VERY well in the run-heavy 2009 offense that swept the division and he led the league in rushing till he tweaked his knee. Still, I respect Benson's game, and when given any kind of line (meaning, not having to run behind Livings, or over the right side of an under-performing Fat Andre) was very very effective grinding the ball.

[HoosierCat]

People who wanted a big name free agent didn't do the math on how many free agents the Bengals had leaving. That is a big part of the reason there was so much cap space. There were 26 Bengal role players entering free agency.

And people citing how many role players they had to sign seem to ignore the fact that 31 other teams will be paying the bottom half of their roster, too. By this logic, no team could afford to sign any big name free agents because of the need to pay third-string corners and gunners on teams.

Of course, this doesn't happen. Somehow, other teams figure out a way to do both. And by and large, they manage to do it without running into cap problems. The Bengals make excuses. This year, it's that they must sacrifice the present to the Cruel God of 2014. I just hope the sacrifice counts for something by then.

[derekshank]

People who wanted a big name free agent didn't do the math on how many free agents the Bengals had leaving. That is a big part of the reason there was so much cap space. There were 26 Bengal role players entering free agency.

And people citing how many role players they had to sign seem to ignore the fact that 31 other teams will be paying the bottom half of their roster, too. By this logic, no team could afford to sign any big name free agents because of the need to pay third-string corners and gunners on teams.

Of course, this doesn't happen. Somehow, other teams figure out a way to do both. And by and large, they manage to do it without running into cap problems. The Bengals make excuses. This year, it's that they must sacrifice the present to the Cruel God of 2014. I just hope the sacrifice counts for something by then.

Hoosier, I respect your opinion more than most... but you are really talking out of both sides of your mouth on this issue.

On the one hand you bristle at the idea of planning ahead for AJ Green's contract. On the other hand you start a thread lamenting how Mike Brown will never be willing or able to pay AJ Green the type of money that star WRs are currently demanding.

On the one had you classify the Bengal FAs that were entering 2012 as the "bottom half of the roster" and "third string corners and gunners." On the other hand you complain that the Bengals didn't franchise Reggie Nelson and tell everyone that Rucker and Fanene will be much more difficult to replace than we think.

The fact is that the Bengals have already used up two-thirds of their cap space on 17 signings. Of these signings they have brought in a starting safety, starting LG, starting RB, 3 rotational D-Linemen, and the starting kicker (hardly the "bottom half of the roster"). Not included in these signings is the need to still replace a starting WR, starting RG, and starting OLB.

And with the exception of Whitworth and Hall, nearly all of the Bengals star players are on inexpensive rookie contracts (Atkins, Dunlap, MJ, and Dalton are all making less than $1 million/year). All of those contracts are going to balloon... the question is when. I think some of them should be dealt with immediately. So... $17 million dollars needs to be spread out on 3 starters, the "bottom half of the roster" and extending the likes of Atkins, Dunlap, and Gresham.

Where is all this extra cash that Mike Brown is being so cheap with? And notice that none of my current numbers take into consideration the "Cruel God of 2014."

Commence hand wringing.

[HoosierCat]

On the one had you classify the Bengal FAs that were entering 2012 as the "bottom half of the roster" and "third string corners and gunners."

Right, the same guys you first airbrushed as "26 role players" and now want to include in the "starting safety, starting LG, starting RB, 3 rotational D-Linemen, and the starting kicker" category. Neither bottom half of the roster nor role players, right? The point is that every team's roster is going to be the same size, and every team has plenty of young players who are going to need to be paid in the next few years. Yet, somehow, free agency goes on and there doesn't seem to be any widespread concern about 2014, except of course down at PBS.

Hoosier, I respect your opinion more than most... but you are really talking out of both sides of your mouth on this issue.

On the one hand you bristle at the idea of planning ahead for AJ Green's contract. On the other hand you start a thread lamenting how Mike Brown will never be willing or able to pay AJ Green the type of money that star WRs are currently demanding.

On the contrary, I described it as prudent to plan for the need to re-sign guys like Green and Dalton. I even sketched out a scenario in which Green ends up franchised two straight years and then gets re-signed to a second long-term deal cheaper because of age. The fact that I also think that Mike Brown will never pay $100-million-plus to any player other than a QB doesn't have anything to do with that, except as a reason they might pursue a franchise tag strategy instead.

So... $17 million dollars needs to be spread out on 3 starters, the "bottom half of the roster" and extending the likes of Atkins, Dunlap, and Gresham.

I don't have any problem with extending Atkins, Dunlap or Gresham. In fact, I wish they would. But I don't think that, say, spending $4 million more to get Ben Grubbs versus Travelle Wharton would have destroyed the future, y'know?

Commence hand wringing.

I would but the FO is doing enough of it for the both of us.

[membengal]

Jesus your act gets old sometimes, Hoosier.

Whatever.

[ArmyBengal]

Seriously, i'm still a bit disappointed. I'll accept where we are, but I simply think they broke even when they should have been able to do more.

Something I sometimes seem to forget (God knows why) is that whatever player I may like to see come here, they have to WANT to come here.

Sure we could have paid Grubbs what he got from the Saints, but he more than likely would have wanted more to come here, so that's not so black and white as it may appear. Could we have worked out a deal for Mario Williams the way the Bills did, in what amount to a bunch of club options after the 2nd year ?? Sure, but would Williams want to come to Cincinnati ??

My thing is, it just doesn't appear they were that worried about geting upgrades. By that, I mean ones that change what they will do in the draft. We will still draft OG, CB, and RB fairly high. I have always said I wanted Nelson back, but have also coupled that by saying that it's not because he's so great, but it was in the teams best interest due to the lack of FA replacements and not forcing our hand in the draft.

Any of us could probably argue either side of this particular debate and be mostly right at any one point in time, but again, I just think they missed out on an opportunity to do more and are now depending on the likes of guys like Harvey and Anderson who have never done anything of great value. I hope like hell that Zimmer gets the most of them both and they become at least what we lost in Rucker and Fanene, but ain't that about a bitch to HOPE that two former top 10 picks can become as productive as freakin' Rucker and Fanene ??

What they do with future contracts is whatever as well. Sure they need to be considered, but lets not forget a couple things. They don't always have to use the tag on a kicker and when the new TV deal gets done, the cap is expected to increase rather dramatically. Couple that with teams having to spend pretty close to the cap (Not really a problem for the Bengals believe it or not) and I don't think it's quite the issue it's being made out to be. How many Carson Palmer contracts to we currently have ??

Like I said, I will be happy with what they have done, but am looking forward to the draft to solve some of these problems.

[derekshank]

The point is that every team's roster is going to be the same size, and every team has plenty of young players who are going to need to be paid in the next few years. Yet, somehow, free agency goes on and there doesn't seem to be any widespread concern about 2014, except of course down at PBS.

Perhaps. But you need only look one year back to see how badly such a mindset can backfire.

I submit for your consideration, the Houston Texans. Just one year after bringing in Joseph at $10 million/year they were forced to choose between Mario Williams and Arian Foster. On top of that... they lost 40% of the best O-Line in the NFL.

Given how poorly Bengal fans have responded to losing a couple rotational D-Linemen, I shutter to think what might happen if the Bengals have a future offseason like Houston is currently experiencing.

And I don't need to stop at Houston, do I? New Orleans, Pittsburgh, San Diego, Oakland, Baltimore, Kansas City, and Tennessee have all had high end salary cap casualties this year.

In a couple years from now, we'll know who was right. But even if I end up being wrong, I agree with the sentiment. I'd prefer Mike Brown to do everything in his power to give long term deals to as many of their current stars as possible. And witnessing the current FA period... plenty of NFL teams are having problems with this task. So it's a difficult thing to do - even without going after high priced FAs. So I expect we'll see every bit of the cap used up on the Bengals current stars. And from my humble perspective, that's the right move.

[BengalPimp]

I don't know why you mention Lawson. What is killing me here is that a guy like Manny Lawson, a r1 "non-bust" comes here, does a great job and is still un-signed.

SIGN THE MAN>PAY THE MAN.

I like Manny Lawson, but to the people in San Fran, he WAS a 1st Rd bust. He had 1 decent year (2009) where he set career highs with 6.5 sacks (he never got half that in any other season) and a "Career High" 68 tackles......Sorry, but a 1st Rd LB should be getting more than 50 tackles and 1 or 2 sacks like he has over his career (Hell, Ahmad Brooks put up 50 tackles and 7 Sacks for the 49ers last year). If drafted again, he most certainly would not be a 1st Rd pick. While he may not have been considered as big of a bust as say a Cedric Benson when he arrived, he was considered a 1st Rd disappointment, and a miss......

I do agree with you and would like to see Lawson re-signed, but he's probably not going to sign a 1-year deal to try and prove himself like he had to last year, which means the Bengals won't get a discount and likely will not sign him.

[HoosierCat]

Perhaps. But you need only look one year back to see how badly such a mindset can backfire.

I submit for your consideration, the Houston Texans. Just one year after bringing in Joseph at $10 million/year they were forced to choose between Mario Williams and Arian Foster. On top of that... they lost 40% of the best O-Line in the NFL.

As you say, perhaps. On the other hand, the Texans still have Foster, still have Joseph, have pass-rushers like Barwin on the roster who have shown themselves to be effective, and the April draft. There are always trade-offs.

In a couple years from now, we'll know who was right. But even if I end up being wrong, I agree with the sentiment. I'd prefer Mike Brown to do everything in his power to give long term deals to as many of their current stars as possible. And witnessing the current FA period... plenty of NFL teams are having problems with this task. So it's a difficult thing to do - even without going after high priced FAs. So I expect we'll see every bit of the cap used up on the Bengals current stars. And from my humble perspective, that's the right move.

I don't have a problem with that approach, but of course the Bengals actually have to do it. See the aforementioned Johnathan Joseph. Time will tell.

[Sea Ray]

Perhaps. But you need only look one year back to see how badly such a mindset can backfire.

I submit for your consideration, the Houston Texans. Just one year after bringing in Joseph at $10 million/year they were forced to choose between Mario Williams and Arian Foster. On top of that... they lost 40% of the best O-Line in the NFL.

As you say, perhaps. On the other hand, the Texans still have Foster, still have Joseph, have pass-rushers like Barwin on the roster who have shown themselves to be effective, and the April draft. There are always trade-offs.

In a couple years from now, we'll know who was right. But even if I end up being wrong, I agree with the sentiment. I'd prefer Mike Brown to do everything in his power to give long term deals to as many of their current stars as possible. And witnessing the current FA period... plenty of NFL teams are having problems with this task. So it's a difficult thing to do - even without going after high priced FAs. So I expect we'll see every bit of the cap used up on the Bengals current stars. And from my humble perspective, that's the right move.

I don't have a problem with that approach, but of course the Bengals actually have to do it. See the aforementioned Johnathan Joseph. Time will tell.

What jumps out at me is that a lot of those teams have enjoyed success recently that we can only dream of. Let's go deep into the playoffs and then worry about who we're losing due to cap hell

[kingwilly]

I don't know why you mention Lawson. What is killing me here is that a guy like Manny Lawson, a r1 "non-bust" comes here, does a great job and is still un-signed.

SIGN THE MAN>PAY THE MAN.

I like Manny Lawson, but to the people in San Fran, he WAS a 1st Rd bust. He had 1 decent year (2009) where he set career highs with 6.5 sacks (he never got half that in any other season) and a "Career High" 68 tackles......Sorry, but a 1st Rd LB should be getting more than 50 tackles and 1 or 2 sacks like he has over his career (Hell, Ahmad Brooks put up 50 tackles and 7 Sacks for the 49ers last year). If drafted again, he most certainly would not be a 1st Rd pick. While he may not have been considered as big of a bust as say a Cedric Benson when he arrived, he was considered a 1st Rd disappointment, and a miss......

I do agree with you and would like to see Lawson re-signed, but he's probably not going to sign a 1-year deal to try and prove himself like he had to last year, which means the Bengals won't get a discount and likely will not sign him.

You are probably right, and if Moch and Muckleroy and Rivers can get healthy, maybe his loss wont be felt.

I do think he is a strong player, and would be sad to see him go.

[blueridge]

So the Bengals added another 3 former 1st Rd Busts this offseason. Whether in Free Agency or in trade it seems as though they PRIMARILY pursue everyone else's 1st Rd Busts.

It's been a mixed bag, but add Harvey, Allen, and Anderson to the long list that includes guys like Benson, "Pac Man" Jones, Manny Lawson, Matt Jones, Reggie Nelson, Deltha O'Neal, etc.

**Honorable mention to Taylor Mays a supposed "1st Rd Talent" who slipped to the 2nd...

Who's next? Vernon Gholston?...sheesh......

It's no secret those guys ALL came cheap. Where they did get some production out of some of those guys, this "model" has also proven it won't get you over the hump......Time to start targeting some established talent Mikey boy.....With this team being so close, they are only a couple of LEGIT players away, now is not the time to add more reclamation projects. ESPECIALLY WITH THE MONEY YOU HAD TO SPEND!

Needless to say, the only signing I am good with, is that of a former undrafted free agent (BGE) not these bums.

The draft can't come soon enough for me............

Its mind-boggling that you're whining about the guys the Bengals are bringing in to fill out the roster. Idiot fans.

[ArmyBengal]

I get what you are saying Blue, but I think what Pimp is getting at (in relation to your response) is that there is a difference in filling out a roster and improving a roster. The Bengals have made their living in attempting to do that on the cheap and sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. I really don't have a huge issue with that thought, but this year (right or wrong) I simply think fans were expecting more.

I wouldn't call the fans idiots, I would call them wanting to see a consistent winner that we haven't had in forever.

[redsbengalsbucks]

I get what you are saying Blue, but I think what Pimp is getting at (in relation to your response) is that there is a difference in filling out a roster and improving a roster. The Bengals have made their living in attempting to do that on the cheap and sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. I really don't have a huge issue with that thought, but this year (right or wrong) I simply think fans were expecting more.

I wouldn't call the fans idiots, I would call them wanting to see a consistent winner that we haven't had in forever.

I think the team is better at RB, at least the same at D-line and upgraded 1 of the OG positions. I'm still waiting to see what is done about the other OG spot. The DB's are the same if not better than at the end of the season, and if Hall can come back full speed, much better. WR is still down with the loss of Caldwell and Simpson likely gone also, but the draft can fill any holes that are left.

Looking at the rest of the AFCN, the Bengals and Browns have at worst stayed level while the Stealers and Ravens have lost ground.

[ArmyBengal]

Maybe, but like I said, I think people were expecting more.

Don't get me wrong, I agree we upgraded, but that wasn't hard to do considering those that were replaced.