Carson Palmer Thread

[cincyhokie]

Why would you take Palmer back? Because right now he's better than Dalton and he gives the 52 other guys on the roster a better chance to win. And yeah, you take him back precisely because having firm control over contract bound players is something worth fighting for.

How is a "selfish quitter" who led this team to a 4-12 record better than Dalton? How does that help the other 52 guys on the roster who some stated publicly they are ready to "move on" and that Palmer should go?

I completely disagree with that.

[HairOnFire]

What if he shows up and tanks on purpose.

Well, if nothing else doing the above would end any debate about who and what Carson Palmer really is, wouldn't it?

[cincyhokie]

What if he shows up and tanks on purpose.

Well, if nothing else doing the above would end any debate about who and what Carson Palmer really is, wouldn't it?

What debate? Haven't we seen enough?

[HoosierCat]

And again, the Seattle trade rumor that was floated just prior to that team signing Tavaris Jackson had the Seahawks offering just a 3rd and a 5th for Palmer.

So how many of you would be willing to sell your football soul for as little as THAT?

Two thoughts. First, that's perfectly acceptable as an opening offer. If you have multiple teams bidding, and I think it's obvious there would have been at least two and perhaps upward of four, the compensation would go up. The question is, how many teams might be interested in bidding next, oh, March or so? We'll see.

Second, whether Palmer should be swapped for "just" a 3rd and 5th depends on what one thinks of Palmer. If you think he can recover his 2005 form elsewhere, then the answer is an emphatic "no!" If you think he's washed-up, you take those picks and laugh all the way to the draft

[HairOnFire]

I completely disagree with that.

Opinion noted. But let's be clear. Besides yours truly...(ahem)...you're also disagreeing with players like Chris Crocker.

For all of the empty talk about Brown reacting like an angry little girl the truth is far different. Yeah, he flashed a little anger at his press conference the other day, but that's only to be expected under the circumstances. Of far more importance, Brown has consistently acted without emotion....including when he admitted that if Palmer dropped his threats and reported he'd be named starter immediately.

Frankly, I'm not seeing the emotional little girl so many of you are seeing. Rather, I'm seeing a series of cold emotionless decision making by someone who has to be as pissed as hell.

[HairOnFire]

If you have multiple teams bidding, and I think it's obvious there would have been at least two and perhaps upward of four, the compensation would go up. The question is, how many teams might be interested in bidding next, oh, March or so? We'll see.

Perhaps we'll see. Perhaps not. But the Seattle rumor served to strengthen the earlier messageboard ranting about how the Bengals would only be offered peanuts for Palmer this year, and would be well served by allowing Palmer to f**king rot for a year before wading into the same entrenched positions next year. And there's the rub because I'm willing to do just that.

Second, whether Palmer should be swapped for "just" a 3rd and 5th depends on what one thinks of Palmer. If you think he can recover his 2005 form elsewhere, then the answer is an emphatic "no!" If you think he's washed-up, you take those picks and laugh all the way to the draft

Really? Is that what the Trade Palmer Camp has been reduced to? Laughing about trading Palmer for a single 3rd round pick and a 5th round sweetener? Hilarious.

That said, by admitting how little you're willing to settle for we now have a much firmer idea of just how much Mike Brown is hurting this team by not trading Palmer. And as it turns out it isn't very much at all.

[HoosierCat]

But the Seattle rumor served to strengthen the earlier messageboard ranting about how the Bengals would only be offered peanuts for Palmer this year.

Maybe, maybe not. Arizona just coughed up a 2nd and Dominic Rogers-Cromartie in exchange for Kevin Kolb. And then they gave Kolb $60 million ($20 million guaranteed). If they were that desperate, what might have Mikey extracted for Carson?

That said, by admitting how little you're willing to settle for

I'm not admitting any such thing, just noting that the belief Palmer has any trade value rests on the belief that he's still a good QB. At least among Bengals fans, that belief is hardly universal. Me, I think he's still a good QB and that the Bengals could have gotten substantially more than a 3rd and 5th.

[ArmyBengal]

Well, any argument that starts with, "Let's not forget that Carson put himself in this situation" immediately stinks of butthurt.

I mean it's blatantly obvious that Carson started this but in the business sense of what could have been had, it's meaningless.

Does it piss me off that he's been a little whiny bitch ?? Sure, but this is where we are now, so what do you do going forward ??

Talk about committment ?? Talk about giving your word ?? Get the f*ck over it already. Seriously, it's laughable to make those claims in the NFL.

If you think Mike Brown is as pissed as hell, then he is in fact letting his emotions dictate thoughts in this decision.

That is my biggest problem. Be emotionless, be cold, be the dickhead businessman that needs to make the hard decision.

He's not doing that, but if you think he is, fine.

Welcoming him back as a starter is a f*cking joke as well and it speaks volumes to who Mike Brown truly is.

Palmer led this team to a 4-12 record last season. 4-12. But he's definitively going to give the best chance at winning ??

That's a reach. One I can follow, but a reach nonetheless.

[cincyhokie]

Well, any argument that starts with, "Let's not forget that Carson put himself in this situation" immediately stinks of butthurt.

I mean it's blatantly obvious that Carson started this but in the business sense of what could have been had, it's meaningless.

Does it piss me off that he's been a little whiny bitch ?? Sure, but this is where we are now, so what do you do going forward ??

Talk about committment ?? Talk about giving your word ?? Get the f*ck over it already. Seriously, it's laughable to make those claims in the NFL.

If you think Mike Brown is as pissed as hell, then he is in fact letting his emotions dictate thoughts in this decision.

That is my biggest problem. Be emotionless, be cold, be the dickhead businessman that needs to make the hard decision.

He's not doing that, but if you think he is, fine.

Welcoming him back as a starter is a f*cking joke as well and it speaks volumes to who Mike Brown truly is.

Palmer led this team to a 4-12 record last season. 4-12. But he's definitively going to give the best chance at winning ??

That's a reach. One I can follow, but a reach nonetheless.

Exactly.

The keen businessman does not seem to be his keen emotionless self. If they can get some good compsensation after all of this then I will commend Mikey. However, if he ever let's Palmer back on this team it will be the worst move he's ever made.

[HairOnFire]

Well, any argument that starts with, "Let's not forget that Carson put himself in this situation" immediately stinks of butthurt.

I'm sorry, but aren't you the same guy who keeps bringing up things like accountability when discussing why all things Bengal seem to suck?

Who lobbied for the Bengals to draft him? Who willingly signed a contract extension years before his original deal was due to expire? Who willingly put himself in a position where he still had four years remaining on the contract he no longer intends to honor? Who willingly assumed the mantle of franchise player and team leader in exchange for tens of millions of dollars? And not coincidentally, it is Carson Palmer who now uses those very same tens of millions of dollars as leverage in his attempts to break his contract.

Where's the accountability, Army?

Just saying....

[HairOnFire]

Does it piss me off that he's been a little whiny bitch ?? Sure, but this is where we are now, so what do you do going forward ?? Talk about committment ?? Talk about giving your word ?? Get the f*ck over it already.

Well, please forgive, but you're the one who acts like he can't get over it.

You're the one demanding something else. Something that will make your butthurt feel better. You're the one demanding the soothing salve that is a draft pick.

Meanwhile, I don't want or require anything. I'm good with this. I can happily watch Carson Palmer fade into obscurity, this year and the next and the next, without needing something more.

[HoosierCat]

Meanwhile, I don't want or require anything. I'm good with this. I can happily watch Carson Palmer fade into obscurity, this year and the next and the next, without needing something more.

Well, that's not quite true, now, is it? In fact, you have been demanding the same thing that Mike Brown is: that Carson Palmer come back here right now young man and sit down at the table and clean you plate like you promised. You've even been predicting that it would happen, that in the end Palmer will slink back to Cincy in defeat as Brown looks on victoriously.

But that hasn't happened (yet). And so now it's f**k him. You're "happy" to watch him fade into obscurity. You don't need any more. Uh-huh.

If you think that's what you really want, I think you're fooling yourself.

[HairOnFire]

Well, that's not quite true, now, is it? In fact, you have been demanding the same thing that Mike Brown is: that Carson Palmer come back here right now young man and sit down at the table and clean you plate like you promised.

Not true. I'm not demanding Carson Palmer do anything. Nor am I demanding Mike Brown do anything. That's where we differ, right?

Palmer can go or stay. It's his choice. He controls his own fate. He's responsible for whatever happens next, and I for one do not feel sorry for him. And yeah, if Mike Brown wants to sit back, watch, and do nothing...well, I'm good with that regardless of the final outcome. Rot or start.

But that hasn't happened (yet). And so now it's f**k him. You're "happy" to watch him fade into obscurity. You don't need any more. Uh-huh.

Do you suffer from amnesia? Perhaps someone has dropped something upon your head recently? Do you concuss easily? Or have you truly forgotten my first reaction to all of this crap back in February? (Let him rot.)

My position hasn't changed. Refuse to be dictated to. Do not reward. Instead, refuse to respond directly and let Palmer dictate his own fate. Retire or return. His choice.

[HoosierCat]

Do you suffer from amnesia? Perhaps someone has dropped something upon your head recently? Do you concuss easily? Or have you truly forgotten my first reaction to all of this crap back in February? (At long last, I have my Prometheus! )

Fixed it for you.

[HairOnFire]

Do you suffer from amnesia? Perhaps someone has dropped something upon your head recently? Do you concuss easily? Or have you truly forgotten my first reaction to all of this crap back in February? (At long last, I have my Prometheus! )

Fixed it for you.

I hit, I miss, I don't keep score.

Perhaps you should spend more time fixing your own old threads. For just one possible example, the hundreds of times you wrote about how the lockout would prevent the Bengals from dumping Chad.

Dumped him on the very first day possible, right?

[johnswahoo]

Maybe it's me or maybe its the signing of Joseph by Houston that has brought me to this thought, but I think Carson is being made an example of because Mike Brown knows there are more dissenters who might be planning on asking for a trade. If he gives in to Carson, then others will think Brown will trade them if they cry hard enough. Brown knows these guys can't just go out and not play because they will lose money in FA, so they must perform. Hate to say it, they are slaves to the contract they signed.

Personally, if I were a player I would demand a trade clause or an opt out that allows for me to leave a team if management hasn't lived up to the bargin of the contract, meaning yes I'll sign and play for this team provided that you are putting on the field the best possible team to win. If for some reason this is violated I could demand a trade or be eligible for FA at the conclusion of the season.

If that were to happen, some teams might begin to try and become more competative.

Mike Brown is a smart business man, but running a football team and making sure they become contenders year in and year out, he is not.

I guess the question to that type of thought is, does an owner have an obligation to the players they hire to put a product on the field to be competative?

[HoosierCat]

Do you suffer from amnesia? Perhaps someone has dropped something upon your head recently? Do you concuss easily? Or have you truly forgotten my first reaction to all of this crap back in February? (At long last, I have my Prometheus! )

Fixed it for you.

I hit, I miss, I don't keep score.

Yes, I understand, amnesia is handy, is it not?

[bwillycuse]

Maybe it's me or maybe its the signing of Joseph by Houston that has brought me to this thought, but I think Carson is being made an example of because Mike Brown knows there are more dissenters who might be planning on asking for a trade. If he gives in to Carson, then others will think Brown will trade them if they cry hard enough. Brown knows these guys can't just go out and not play because they will lose money in FA, so they must perform. Hate to say it, they are slaves to the contract they signed.

Personally, if I were a player I would demand a trade clause or an opt out that allows for me to leave a team if management hasn't lived up to the bargin of the contract, meaning yes I'll sign and play for this team provided that you are putting on the field the best possible team to win. If for some reason this is violated I could demand a trade or be eligible for FA at the conclusion of the season.

If that were to happen, some teams might begin to try and become more competative.

Mike Brown is a smart business man, but running a football team and making sure they become contenders year in and year out, he is not.

I guess the question to that type of thought is, does an owner have an obligation to the players they hire to put a product on the field to be competative?

No chance. Who would decide whether an owner is trying or not. Palmer, Chad, TO all put out sub par efforts last year.

Palmer is being treated this way because he took many millions of dollars in signing bonus money and still has 4 years left on his contract. Moreover, he says nothing public and hides in his hole. Cant even step up and thank the fans for their support over the years. Nothing. I am with Brown. Let him rot. Trade him next year for the same picks you would trade him now for.

Slaves to contract? Just watched Curt Flood show on HBO. This isn't anywhere near MLB before free agency was started. Don't sign 10 year extensions with half the contract as a signing bonus. The Bengals ripped up palmers current contract to give him much more money.

[ArmyBengal]

Well, any argument that starts with, "Let's not forget that Carson put himself in this situation" immediately stinks of butthurt.

I'm sorry, but aren't you the same guy who keeps bringing up things like accountability when discussing why all things Bengal seem to suck?

Who lobbied for the Bengals to draft him? Who willingly signed a contract extension years before his original deal was due to expire? Who willingly put himself in a position where he still had four years remaining on the contract he no longer intends to honor? Who willingly assumed the mantle of franchise player and team leader in exchange for tens of millions of dollars? And not coincidentally, it is Carson Palmer who now uses those very same tens of millions of dollars as leverage in his attempts to break his contract.

Where's the accountability, Army?

Just saying....

C'mon Hair, you are acting like this is the first time i've brought up accountability for this organization. It's the same thought, different year.

Accountability is also not solely limited to the players either. Mike Brown is also a part of that. I'm curious which Mike Brown we are suppose to believe ?? The one who claims, before things are able to be discussed, that he doesn't think there will be proper value for Carson or the one who holds a press conference and come off as butthurt that his golden boy doesn't want to be a part of his organization and says Carson is "retired" when he hasn't filed papers yet ?? Either way I don't believe he even gauged the market in regard to Carson. You don't think they could have gotten something close to what an unproven Kolb netted the Eagles ?? My contention is, he didn't even try. Other may contend he did, but it's specualation either way. I have Mike Brown's word to base my argument on.

Does it piss me off that he's been a little whiny bitch ?? Sure, but this is where we are now, so what do you do going forward ?? Talk about committment ?? Talk about giving your word ?? Get the f*ck over it already.

Well, please forgive, but you're the one who acts like he can't get over it.

You're the one demanding something else. Something that will make your butthurt feel better. You're the one demanding the soothing salve that is a draft pick.

Meanwhile, I don't want or require anything. I'm good with this. I can happily watch Carson Palmer fade into obscurity, this year and the next and the next, without needing something more.

No, I can't get over an owner that appears to be, how did you say ??, "pissed off as all hell" and allowing his emotions to dictate business decisions. It's not butthurt on my part, it's poor business practice on his part and the butthurt he feels from Carson turning him down. I'm demanding the team at least make an effort to do something that benefits the team and doesn't continually allow sh*t like this to linger over the head of the organization. Unless you want to argue that it's a good thing to draft a QB, tell the rookie he's the starter, have other players outwardly reject a return of Carson, and go on TV and say if Carson returns, he's the starter. That's counterproductive, plain and simple.

Draft picks ?? Sure, but it could have just as easily been players or combination of both. Something to help this year and next. Kolb's deal says that would have been possible. Wait, another CB like Rodgers-Cromartie who could fill the loss of JJoe and compete on teams would have sucked right ?? Again, I don't think he even tried because he wanted to prove his point. A point that is to the detriment of the team.

Again, there are things you and others mention that would make me happy. Such as watching Carson fade away and never take another snap, but that helps no one but Mike Brown think he got the last laugh while doing nothing for the team. If you are good with doing nothing, cool. I suspect that line of thought has been a contributor to our stellar playoff runs the past 20 years right ??

[HairOnFire]

I hit, I miss, I don't keep score.

Yes, I understand, amnesia is handy, is it not?

Absolutely.

For example, by bestowing Alcoholic Amnesty upon you last year Bengal fans like myself were able to temporarily forgive and forget a series of mind numbingly stupid posts that demanded the reader ignore what he could see with his own eyes. Sadly, you wrote those posts. Happily, by granting you amnesty until you sobered up everyone involved, myself included, was able to forget how you were the last guy in the room to figure out what everyone else was seeing.

It happens. There's no shame in it.

Nutshelled, the granting of Alcoholic Amnesty must be seen for what it really is. Simply put, it is collective amnesia for the common good. A "handy" way for each of us to acknowledge how none of us gets it right all of the time. A way to say it's alright if you drank one or three beers too many. A way to say it's okay if the weed we're smoking that week is too strong.

We're Bengal fans. We embrace amnesia.

It comforts us.

[HairOnFire]

C'mon Hair, you are acting like this is the first time i've brought up accountability for this organization. It's the same thought, different year.

Accountability is also not solely limited to the players either. Mike Brown is also a part of that.

Are you suggesting we Bengal fans never hold Mike Brown accountable? Hell, he's the guy we hold accountable for everything, including the personal choices made by his players.

As Bengal fans we rarely hold players accountable for their own actions even after we acknowledge how wrong or selfish those actions might be. And that's exactly what you're attempting to do in regards to Palmer. You acknowledge his failings, proclaim him to be a selfish quitter whose actions are intended to harm the team, yet due to your desire for a draft pick you demand Mike Brown ignore all of those things, thereby rewarding Palmer. But IMHO any plan that rewards Palmer is off the table and simply can't be considered.

....I can't get over an owner that appears to be, how did you say ??, "pissed off as all hell" and allowing his emotions to dictate business decisions. It's not butthurt on my part, it's poor business practice on his part and the butthurt he feels from Carson turning him down.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I think it's obvious Mike Brown is pissed as all hell, but I think the actions he's taken aren't being made from anger, but rather....from a willingness to react in the most rational, cold, and emotionless manner possible.

Either way I don't believe he even gauged the market in regard to Carson. You don't think they could have gotten something close to what an unproven Kolb netted the Eagles ?? My contention is, he didn't even try.

Nor should he try. Because, again, the two situations are vastly different. In fact, they aren't even comparable. For example(s)....Kolb didn't threaten his team. Kolb didn't quit on his team. Kolb didn't engage in a power play intended to break his contract. Kolb didn't threaten to retire. Kolb didn't vow he'd never take another step in Veterans stadium. Kolb never attempted to break a contract he had willingly signed. Thus, there are no valid reasons why the Eagles would refuse to trade Kolb.

If you are good with doing nothing, cool. I suspect that line of thought has been a contributor to our stellar playoff runs the past 20 years right ??

Oh, but the Bengals have done something. They've attempted to move on without Palmer in the most prudent manner possible while refusing to reward Palmer for actions you admit are rooted in douchebaggery. For me, that's enough. For others, yourself included, you demand the Bengals ignore their own self interests and reward Palmer's douchebaggery simply because a peanut could be had.

[ArmyBengal]

Are you suggesting we Bengal fans never hold Mike Brown accountable? Hell, he's the guy we hold accountable for everything, including the personal choices made by his players.

I've never said any such thing.

Carson is in a position that not many, if any other, player finds themselves and that's having the power to make such demands.

I've never said Carson was correct, but he can in fact and has, forced the issue. How Mike Brown deals with it tells the story.

I'm of the line of thought that he needs to rid the team of the quitters mentality or "clock punchers" as you have said.

Keeping him on ice with the threat of inserting him into the starters role at a moments notice helps no one on this team.

Mike Brown sleeps well though.

As Bengal fans we rarely hold players accountable for their own actions even after we acknowledge how wrong or selfish those actions might be. And that's exactly what you're attempting to do in regards to Palmer. You acknowledge his failings, proclaim him to be a selfish quitter whose actions are intended to harm the team, yet due to your desire for a draft pick you demand Mike Brown ignore all of those things, thereby rewarding Palmer. But IMHO any plan that rewards Palmer is off the table and simply can't be considered.

Again, I don't "desire" a pick. They could have done a multitude of things, but simply didn't bother to look.

The thought of "rewarding" Palmer is comical. Why do you or anyone else care what he does after the fact or how much money he makes ??

Shouldn't the thought be to do what is needs to make attempts at improving the organization ??

I still think he wants to punish Palmer more than he wants to move forward.

Palmer isn't your everyday player on the roster either.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I think it's obvious Mike Brown is pissed as all hell, but I think the actions he's taken aren't being made from anger, but rather....from a willingness to react in the most rational, cold, and emotionless manner possible.

You made that comment just yesterday when we started this conversation, but I don't think he's being emotionless.

Nor should he try. Because, again, the two situations are vastly different. In fact, they aren't even comparable. For example(s)....Kolb didn't threaten his team. Kolb didn't quit on his team. Kolb didn't engage in a power play intended to break his contract. Kolb didn't threaten to retire. Kolb didn't vow he'd never take another step in Veterans stadium. Kolb never attempted to break a contract he had willingly signed. Thus, there are no valid reasons why the Eagles would refuse to trade Kolb.

Boo hoo. Carson did this, Carson did that.

Oh, but the Bengals have done something. They've attempted to move on without Palmer in the most prudent manner possible while refusing to reward Palmer for actions you admit are rooted in douchebaggery. For me, that's enough. For others, yourself included, you demand the Bengals ignore their own self interests and reward Palmer's douchebaggery simply because a peanut could be had.

I don't want a peanut, it's far more important that the team move on and remove the "he could come back" from over Dalton's head.

For others, yourself included, you don't mind the distraction because Palmer doesn't get to get his way.

Still, I have no reason to believe Mike Brown even looked into what could be had to determine it was a peanut.

What's more important ?? Proving a point that other players aren't in a position to excercise ??

[HoosierCat]

Oh, but the Bengals have done something. They've attempted to move on without Palmer in the most prudent manner possible while refusing to reward Palmer for actions you admit are rooted in douchebaggery. For me, that's enough. For others, yourself included, you demand the Bengals ignore their own self interests and reward Palmer's douchebaggery simply because a peanut could be had.

I think you have a different definition of moving on than most other people. I don't see the Bengals moving on at all. Rather, the front office appears determined to let the Palmer issue linger indefinitely. Not only will it hang over the season like a cloud, but it will again immediately become topic No. 1 the second the season is over. The only way to move on is to either trade or release him.

I think there's a strong argument that the Bengals ought to have put him on the block at the start of the week and sold him to the highest bidder. There was a strong market for QBs and he would have been far and away the best available. The team could have reaped good value and put the issue to rest once and for all. Now it's too late. Hopefully, there will be a strong market again next March/April and Mike will relent and we can finally move on. But now, we're stuck.

[HairOnFire]

Carson is in a position that not many, if any other, player finds themselves and that's having the power to make such demands.

I've never said Carson was correct, but he can in fact and has, forced the issue. How Mike Brown deals with it tells the story.

And that points out where we disagree. You believe the story starts after Palmer forces the issue. I say the story started the moment Palmer took the first steps that put things in motion. As a result I find myself unable to forget what Palmer has done and refuse to reward him. You on the other hand no longer give Palmer's actions any further consideration beyond admitting his obvious douchbaggery. For you the story starts after the douchebaggery and you insist Palmer's actions be ignored, as if he shares no responsibility for his fate and the fate of the team he quit on.

I refuse to ignore the douchebaggery.

Furthermore, by pointing out how Palmer is in a position of power that few players enjoy you admit his situation is different from Kevin Kolb's, thereby making that comparison meaningless. Palmer's so-called power stems directly from the way the Bengals had made him a central figure to build around, thereby making his position with the team different than any other player on the Bengals roster. And yeah, part of the reason he was so highly compensated is because he was a core figure in regards to the teams long-term planning. None of these things are true of Kevin Kolb. In fact, Kolb wasn't even considered a starter by the team who traded him.

I'm of the line of thought that he needs to rid the team of the quitters mentality or "clock punchers" as you have said.

Exactly. So why not sit back on your hands and watch as Carson Palmer solves the Carson Palmer problem for you? Why not sit back and let Palmer serve as a handy example of how quitters will be dealt with? Why not show how easily this team can ignore the threats of players who attempt to talk or douche their way off of the team?

I don't want a peanut, it's far more important that the team move on and remove the "he could come back" from over Dalton's head.

You seem to be worrying an awful lot about what message is being sent to a rookie player who isn't ready to start regardless of whether Palmer was on the roster. Shouldn't you spend more time asking what message is being sent to the 52 other players on the roster when they look up and see a rookie QB being handed the position without competition?

[HairOnFire]

I think you have a different definition of moving on than most other people.

I'm good with that as long as you're referring to those who insist they've moved on but can't stop screaming about a trade. Frankly, you guys remind me of the guy who finally ends a stormy relationship with a gal, storming out in a display of shouting and slammed doors, only to return meekly to beg for the return of a hat he left behind.

I don't see the Bengals moving on at all.

Perhaps you should pay closer attention. There are two new QB's on the roster.

Not only will it hang over the season like a cloud, but it will again immediately become topic No. 1 the second the season is over.

I welcome it. And who knows, perhaps by then your fondness for meaningless peanuts will have subsided.

The only way to move on is to either trade or release him.

Actually, there's a 3rd option.

Accept the fact that Carson Palmer is solely responsible for his own actions and consider him to be happily retired.