Carson Palmer Thread

[HoosierCat]

What beloved second round trade booty? I've repeatedly said he'd draw first-round-plus comp.

Then why did you say you'd settle for as little a single 2nd round pick from next years draft? Are you in the habit of settling for dramatically less than full value?

Don't recall ever saying that.

Well, how often do you blackout after drinking?

About as often as you find your lips vacuum-sealed to that penis pump...err..."bong" stuck in your beard.

And I didn't say his value would be higher next year, in fact, that was you; I said I thought that was a stretch.

More accurately, we agreed his trade value would be no worse next year and I said I could envision a scenario or two where it would be better. You disagreed, I guess, if calling something a stretch qualifies as a disagreement. But now it seems you're attempting to stretch in exactly the same manner that I did by pointing out how a new CBA will bring a return of normal conditions to the marketplace. And with that return comes a better opportunity to trade Palmer for full value rather than attempting to unload a player under duress in a stunted market.

No, more accurately, I said an increase in his value would be a stretch. A new CBA will bring back the market, but whether the market is as good next year as this -- with a boatload of teams looking for QB help, Kevin Kolb being bandied about like Joe Montana and a QB class that blows chunks -- is anyones guess. I'm willing to wait and see versus dumping Palmer for peanuts because he'll still have good value next year, but better? Ain't buying it.

[cincyhokie]

Um, because he has stated that he doesn't want to play for the Bengals, not other teams. The Bengals are widely regarded as a poorly run franchise when it comes to an organization taking care of their players. Whether or not that's true is insignificant.

Like hell it is. Anyone who wants to use the Siberia rant as justification for trading Palmer needs to come to grips with the fact that all of the teams who need his services are s**tty teams with s**tty owners. And yeah, those same s**tty owners would have to ask themselves why Palmer would be happier playing for them than he would in Cincy.

Frankly, the only way Palmer agreeing to play for Bill Bidwell or a Bud Adams makes any sense at all is if his core complaint really is with Cincinnatians themselves, lending credence to the rant about this being wife-driven.

I disagree. Also, I'm sure the Dolphins, 49ers, and Seahawks would disagree as well. As far as "Siberia" goes we can argue that fact all day and night. I have not yet heard one player come out and specifically say otherwise, but I can quote Esiason, Pickens, Dillon, and Atrell Hawkins. I can even throw in a Warren Sapp. Again, perception is reality, earned or not.

[ArmyBengal]

Well, without truly knowing what the hell it is that Mike Brown is trying to say makes any opinion on the matter just that.

Meaning, you can believe Brown's doing the right thing or not by not putting his cards on the table.

You can believe other owners will or won't want Carson the quitter on their team.

You can believe he will be worth more next season or not.

I honestly think that by Mike Brown NOT letting teams know Carson is available will cause them to look elsewhere without giving it a second thought and I disagree with that stance. I think other teams will look at Carson Palmer in the same light they look at any player that they think needs a change of scenery and realize he's still capable of taking a team to the playoffs (San Fran, Seattle). I think Palmer's value is pretty high right now when considering the teams that are QB needy, but won't say definitively he still won't be worth something next year if he sits. I think Carson is worth a 1st, 3rd, and possibly another player or if you choose, a sweetener pick. Lastly, I think if Mike Brown truly wants Carson, who has no desire to play for this team, sees him as a leader, I think Mike Brown is much dumber than I already thought he was in terms of football smarts.

I'm sure there is a polar opposite opinion from mine that would be equally believable, but I'm just not buying.

I mean maybe Mike Brown is the sly fox, who has a firm grip on making proper personnel decisions, and thinks turds can in fact lead.

[Kazkal]

It only makes sense to wait and hope Carson comes around."

I've found myself actually supporting MB through this whole thing, in part because I think CP is an asswipe and that stuff can't be tolerated. But that approach only makes sense if you're doing it because of principle, and to show the rest of the world you mean business and you won't bend. But in reality, you must also know that CP's stance has essentially painted a yellow stripe down his own back, and he's now useless to the team. Really, how can he ever come back here and be a leader? He never really had that role to begin with, and now...

But to hear MB express his desire that Carson comes back around... Well, that just baffles me. Either you bury him in the dirt or you trade him. But I don't know how you can take him back at this point. The cost of doing that (putting your stock in a loser) seems even greater to the team as a whole than caving to whiners...

Now I'm confused, and starting to think maybe we SHOULD get whatever we can for him...

MB is a skillful negotiator and lawyer. Until he has solid offers on the table it makes no sense to say he will trade him. He has all the leverage if he takes the stance that it will take a pot of gold to pry CP away. I'm not saying they will trade him for sure, but everyone needs to calm down with the MB is an idiot theme because he has done everything possible to maintain the highest leverage possible in the event that he would actually consider trading. There is no sense in tipping your hand to Carson, his agent, or the rest of the league until you intend to play your cards.

skillful like how he turned down the saints entire draft to take Akili who very well could have still been available?

[cincyhokie]

Like hell it is. Anyone who wants to use the Siberia rant as justification for trading Palmer needs to come to grips with the fact that all of the teams who need his services are s**tty teams with s**tty owners. And yeah, those same s**tty owners would have to ask themselves why Palmer would be happier playing for them than he would in Cincy.

You don't think there aren't owners that think they can "change" Palmer and have it work out for them? Seriously? That's like saying there aren't plently of straight men and women that think they can't get their best gay friend to switch teams. Egos defy logic. NFL owners are full of them.

[bwillycuse]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/23/eagles-looking-for-more-than-a-first-round-pick-for-kolb/

I dont believe it. But if true? Bengals should easily get the same or better.

[HairOnFire]

As far as "Siberia" goes we can argue that fact all day and night. I have not yet heard one player come out and specifically say otherwise, but I can quote Esiason, Pickens, Dillon, and Atrell Hawkins. I can even throw in a Warren Sapp.

Well, if you throw in Warren Sapp you've got to include his opinion on Carson. Nutshelled, Palmer is a quitter who now wants to take his ball and go home. Sapp went so far as to joke about trading Palmer to Cleveland because "that's what he deserves."

So what was that you were saying about perception and reality?

[F.Cleveland]

It only makes sense to wait and hope Carson comes around."

I've found myself actually supporting MB through this whole thing, in part because I think CP is an asswipe and that stuff can't be tolerated. But that approach only makes sense if you're doing it because of principle, and to show the rest of the world you mean business and you won't bend. But in reality, you must also know that CP's stance has essentially painted a yellow stripe down his own back, and he's now useless to the team. Really, how can he ever come back here and be a leader? He never really had that role to begin with, and now...

But to hear MB express his desire that Carson comes back around... Well, that just baffles me. Either you bury him in the dirt or you trade him. But I don't know how you can take him back at this point. The cost of doing that (putting your stock in a loser) seems even greater to the team as a whole than caving to whiners...

Now I'm confused, and starting to think maybe we SHOULD get whatever we can for him...

MB is a skillful negotiator and lawyer. Until he has solid offers on the table it makes no sense to say he will trade him. He has all the leverage if he takes the stance that it will take a pot of gold to pry CP away. I'm not saying they will trade him for sure, but everyone needs to calm down with the MB is an idiot theme because he has done everything possible to maintain the highest leverage possible in the event that he would actually consider trading. There is no sense in tipping your hand to Carson, his agent, or the rest of the league until you intend to play your cards.

skillful like how he turned down the saints entire draft to take Akili who very well could have still been available?

Obviously he wanted a QB that draft. Obviously that was a stupid choice, but that's not the point. If MB wants something that requires patience and will, he usually gets it. How he comes to the conclusion he wants something is another story.

[HairOnFire]

Like hell it is. Anyone who wants to use the Siberia rant as justification for trading Palmer needs to come to grips with the fact that all of the teams who need his services are s**tty teams with s**tty owners. And yeah, those same s**tty owners would have to ask themselves why Palmer would be happier playing for them than he would in Cincy.

You don't think there aren't owners that think they can "change" Palmer and have it work out for them? Seriously?

That's not what I'm saying at all. Rather, I'm saying that any validity given to Palmer's threat to retire OR whatever level of happiness he might be feeling should be enough to give another owner pause. After all, Palmer's reputation is hardly that of a player who burns passionately and his "just a cog in the machine" leadership has been criticized since his USC days. And now you have his almost casual passive aggressive threat to retire to a soft life to consider.

But perhaps more importantly, if that owner then chooses to dismiss Palmer's threat to retire as simply something a player might say to gain leverage....well, why wouldn't Mike Brown come to the exact same conclusion and act accordingly? And by that I mean in Mike Brown's own selfish best interests, thereby giving no consideration whatever petty grievances Palmer may have.

And before somebody responds to that last line in the paragraph above...if the grievances weren't petty then why didn't Palmer see fit to offer ANY criticism before he pushed the big red button? Why didn't he see fit to use any of the influence that all franchise players, especially quarterbacks, have at their disposal? Couldn't Palmer be bothered?

[TJJackson]

maybe Mike Brown is the sly fox, who has a firm grip on making proper personnel decisions, and thinks turds can in fact lead.

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Thanks, I needed a good belly laugh

[cincyhokie]

As far as "Siberia" goes we can argue that fact all day and night. I have not yet heard one player come out and specifically say otherwise, but I can quote Esiason, Pickens, Dillon, and Atrell Hawkins. I can even throw in a Warren Sapp.

Well, if you throw in Warren Sapp you've got to include his opinion on Carson. Nutshelled, Palmer is a quitter who now wants to take his ball and go home. Sapp went so far as to joke about trading Palmer to Cleveland because "that's what he deserves."

So what was that you were saying about perception and reality?

I heard Deion say that, I didn't hear Sapp say that. But that's not the point I am making.

Cover the turd to look however you want. It's still a turd.

[cincyhokie]

Like hell it is. Anyone who wants to use the Siberia rant as justification for trading Palmer needs to come to grips with the fact that all of the teams who need his services are s**tty teams with s**tty owners. And yeah, those same s**tty owners would have to ask themselves why Palmer would be happier playing for them than he would in Cincy.

You don't think there aren't owners that think they can "change" Palmer and have it work out for them? Seriously?

That's not what I'm saying at all. Rather, I'm saying that any validity given to Palmer's threat to retire OR whatever level of happiness he might be feeling should be enough to give another owner pause. After all, Palmer's reputation is hardly that of a player who burns passionately and his "just a cog in the machine" leadership has been criticized since his USC days. And now you have his almost casual passive aggressive threat to retire to a soft life to consider.

But perhaps more importantly, if that owner then chooses to dismiss Palmer's threat to retire as simply something a player might say to gain leverage....well, why wouldn't Mike Brown come to the exact same conclusion and act accordingly? And by that I mean in Mike Brown's own selfish best interests, thereby giving no consideration whatever petty grievances Palmer may have.

And before somebody responds to that last line in the paragraph above...if the grievances weren't petty then why didn't Palmer see fit to offer ANY criticism before he pushed the big red button? Why didn't he see fit to use any of the influence that all franchise players, especially quarterbacks, have at their disposal? Couldn't Palmer be bothered?

Palmer, rather his agent, has said very little. By doing so he has left himself for others to see with the benefit of the doubt. Palmer will get at least a number 1 draft pick if MB chooses to move him. If not, then at the very least don't try and bring him back.

[ArmyBengal]

In regard to the argument that there are always teams that are going to be QB needy year in and year out, I would say that I agree, however, those teams identified in that category this year are at a desperation point and Palmer would not only solve that problem for them, but be placed in a position to take that team to the playoffs.

My point is, that while there are teams that are going to be needy, not all of those teams would greatly increase their odds of making the playoffs by simply adding a QB. The 49er's and Seahawks are in that position. Most other teams have great needs besides the QB spot and one simple addition might not bear the same fruit.

That is why I'm saying his value is very high right now.

That's not to say he still won't have value next year, but there's simply no way to guage if it would be higher, the same, or lower.

By not putting feelers out there, he's just being ignorant.

The only way I would back off that opinion is if Brown is in fact working behind the scenes out of the spotlight.

My question becomes, what purpose does that serve ?? If they move Palmer, everyone will still say the same things if they knew he was available now.

[cincyhokie]

In regard to the argument that there are always teams that are going to be QB needy year in and year out, I would say that I agree, however, those teams identified in that category this year are at a desperation point and Palmer would not only solve that problem for them, but be placed in a position to take that team to the playoffs.

My point is, that while there are teams that are going to be needy, not all of those teams would greatly increase their odds of making the playoffs by simply adding a QB. The 49er's and Seahawks are in that position. Most other teams have great needs besides the QB spot and one simple addition might not bear the same fruit.

That is why I'm saying his value is very high right now.

That's not to say he still won't have value next year, but there's simply no way to guage if it would be higher, the same, or lower.

By not putting feelers out there, he's just being ignorant.

The only way I would back off that opinion is if Brown is in fact working behind the scenes out of the spotlight.

My question becomes, what purpose does that serve ?? If they move Palmer, everyone will still say the same things if they knew he was available now.

Agreed. And they're in the same division. His value might, might be the same next year but it definately won't be higher.

[Sea Ray]

By not putting feelers out there, he's just being ignorant.

The only way I would back off that opinion is if Brown is in fact working behind the scenes out of the spotlight.

My question becomes, what purpose does that serve ?? If they move Palmer, everyone will still say the same things if they knew he was available now.

We're not hearing any trade rumors right now. Everyone knows this CBA is not going to be settled soon. I don't think the owners have trades on their minds right now. When this CBA comes more into focus, there'll still be time to talk trade.

[HoosierCat]

Clark Judge:

I know they were 4-12 with Palmer last season, but talk to NFL general managers and coaches at this week's meetings and ask them if they think the guy can play. A majority of them would like to have him playing for them, and, sorry, that's not going to happen. Not this season it's not, and it's time Lewis and the Bengals acknowledge the truth -- which is that they better start considering a quarterback with their first pick, the fourth overall, of this year's draft.

[Kazkal]

By not putting feelers out there, he's just being ignorant.

The only way I would back off that opinion is if Brown is in fact working behind the scenes out of the spotlight.

My question becomes, what purpose does that serve ?? If they move Palmer, everyone will still say the same things if they knew he was available now.

We're not hearing any trade rumors right now. Everyone knows this CBA is not going to be settled soon. I don't think the owners have trades on their minds right now. When this CBA comes more into focus, there'll still be time to talk trade.

well Rumors coming out about kolb,But thats because Mike Brown doesn't own the eagles.

[Sea Ray]

well Rumors coming out about kolb,But thats because Mike Brown doesn't own the eagles.

All I'm hearing about Kolb is some wet dream from the Eagles perspective. I haven't heard of any offers being made which tells me there's not much discussion taking place between teams

[HairOnFire]

In regard to the argument that there are always teams that are going to be QB needy year in and year out, I would say that I agree...

We're off to a great start.

...however, those teams identified in that category this year are at a desperation point and Palmer would not only solve that problem for them, but be placed in a position to take that team to the playoffs.

True, but nobody is arguing there isn't a market for Palmer or that teams won't be interested. Furthermore, the rant about Palmer's value being higher next year is a bit of a fringe argument IMHO. Of far greater interest to me is the idea that Palmer's trade value won't fall next year, an idea that nobody has bothered challenging. In fact, Hoosier and others have readily agreed.

That is why I'm saying his value is very high right now. That's not to say he still won't have value next year, but there's simply no way to guage if it would be higher, the same, or lower. By not putting feelers out there, he's just being ignorant.

Well, my first question is....exactly what is gained by putting out feelers when no trades are possible?

The only way I would back off that opinion is if Brown is in fact working behind the scenes out of the spotlight.

Here's a thought. What if he's actually working in the open? What if his intent was to send the very same message that Philadelphia's GM just sent even though their circumstances are vastly different? That being, go big or stay home. More specifically, that a single first round pick won't be enough.

[HairOnFire]

well Rumors coming out about kolb,But thats because Mike Brown doesn't own the eagles.

All I'm hearing about Kolb is some wet dream from the Eagles perspective. I haven't heard of any offers being made which tells me there's not much discussion taking place between teams

Actually, the Eagles GM and head coach openly claim they have been offered a 1st round pick....rumored to be a late rounder from Seattle. They're said to be holding out for an addition pick of 3rd round value or better.

[Sea Ray]

Actually, the Eagles GM and head coach openly claim they have been offered a 1st round pick....rumored to be a late rounder from Seattle. They're said to be holding out for an addition pick of 3rd round value or better.

Perhaps but this report tends to think it's all postering on Philly's part:

This is a story we'll want to monitor closely. For now, however, the Eagles are doing what teams often do when seeking value for a player. They're trying to create a stronger market by suggesting teams are clamoring for their player and willing to pay a high price.

/>http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/38817/the-seattle-seahawks-and-kevin-kolb

[ArmyBengal]

In regard to the argument that there are always teams that are going to be QB needy year in and year out, I would say that I agree...

We're off to a great start.

...however, those teams identified in that category this year are at a desperation point and Palmer would not only solve that problem for them, but be placed in a position to take that team to the playoffs.

True, but nobody is arguing there isn't a market for Palmer or that teams won't be interested. Furthermore, the rant about Palmer's value being higher next year is a bit of a fringe argument IMHO. Of far greater interest to me is the idea that Palmer's trade value won't fall next year, an idea that nobody has bothered challenging. In fact, Hoosier and others have readily agreed.

That is why I'm saying his value is very high right now. That's not to say he still won't have value next year, but there's simply no way to guage if it would be higher, the same, or lower. By not putting feelers out there, he's just being ignorant.

Well, my first question is....exactly what is gained by putting out feelers when no trades are possible?

The only way I would back off that opinion is if Brown is in fact working behind the scenes out of the spotlight.

Here's a thought. What if he's actually working in the open? What if his intent was to send the very same message that Philadelphia's GM just sent even though their circumstances are vastly different? That being, go big or stay home. More specifically, that a single first round pick won't be enough.

Fair enough Hair, I just think it's where you think Mike Brown is with this situation and I feel I'm at the end that doesn't believe that Mike Brown is actually doing anything other than what he has said. That being, "I haven't talked to any team about Palmer and I have no intention on trading him". That seems pretty clear cut. To derive anything such as "go big or stay home" is more reaching than my opinion and I don't give him enough credit to say that. Here's another thought, if he truly means that, what is the point in not doing just that ??

He could just openly come out and say he's willing to trade him and plainly state what it would take to get what he feels is value. Just say it would take 2 first rounders (this year or following) plus a player or whatever people think would be outlandish. If nothing else, it would give the thought that he's not totally dismissing the idea and acknowledges the fact he has a player that could in fact net him something huge in return. It's not like he's trading away a willing participant here.

I still don't see the need to be so tight lipped. As for the CBA, I honestly think it's being used as an excuse to not have to talk about it. "Well there's no CBA, so why bother?" type of thought. It may be true, but there is nothing saying you couldn't be a hell of a lot closer to getting it done quickly after it is all said and done.

Again, I'm not willing to suggest or accept Mike Brown is being sly here.

[Sea Ray]

He could just openly come out and say he's willing to trade him and plainly state what it would take to get what he feels is value. Just say it would take 2 first rounders (this year or following) plus a player or whatever people think would be outlandish. If nothing else, it would give the thought that he's not totally dismissing the idea and acknowledges the fact he has a player that could in fact net him something huge in return. It's not like he's trading away a willing participant here.

I still don't see the need to be so tight lipped. As for the CBA, I honestly think it's being used as an excuse to not have to talk about it. "Well there's no CBA, so why bother?" type of thought. It may be true, but there is nothing saying you couldn't be a hell of a lot closer to getting it done quickly after it is all said and done.

Again, I'm not willing to suggest or accept Mike Brown is being sly here.

If he does that then he would look like he caved if he ended up taking less. I don't see that as a better strategy at this point

[HairOnFire]

He could just openly come out and say he's willing to trade him and plainly state what it would take to get what he feels is value. Just say it would take 2 first rounders (this year or following) plus a player or whatever people think would be outlandish. If nothing else, it would give the thought that he's not totally dismissing the idea and acknowledges the fact he has a player that could in fact net him something huge in return.

Two quick points.

First, we're talking about negotiations that are openly compared to poker playing...where a certain amount of dishonesty is not only accepted, but is actually woven into the fabric of the activity itself. In fact, a participants skill level is often judged on their ability to keep his true thoughts and intentions hidden. Dishonesty is viewed as a skill, not a character flaw.

Second, I reject the premise that Brown has said anything that would prevent another interested party from calling to inquire about Palmer when trades are possible.

It's not like he's trading away a willing participant here.

Exactly. Which explains very well why Brown isn't willing to advertise. In theory the leaking of Palmer's trade demand reduces Brown's leverage, and he can only hope to restore that leverage by appearing reluctant to trade Palmer under any circumstance.

Finally, the fact that Palmer isn't a willing participant makes the idea of not trading him at all a perfectly acceptable and viable option.....especially if no team agrees to offer "equal value".

[COB]

In fact, a participants skill level is often judged on their ability to keep his true thoughts and intentions hidden. Dishonesty is viewed as a skill, not a character flaw.

True. This could be Mike going, "check... check... check..., all in." It could also be Mike playing the honest, straightforward thing where he scratches his head and is mystified by everyone wondering what he's thinking, when he just told everyone what he was thinking.

I know it's not realistic, but it would be so sweet go trade Carson out west, unload Chad, then let them both watch as the 2011 Bengals win the Super Bowl. Talk about the sweetest "back in your face" that we could ever get out of this situation.