Carson Palmer Thread

[TJJackson]

I remind you once again, according to the source Palmer's complaint isn't with the much despised King of Siberia, but rather....with the head coach. In fact, the unnamed GM not only says as much, but claims the message was delivered by Marvin Lewis himself.

I re-read the quote just to be sure, but no, I don't believe that's what the article said. Try it more like this: the unnamed GM talked to Marvin about Carson, and told him Carson isn't coming back. The piece that you claim indicates that he won't play for MARVIN specifically really only means he wont play for the Bengals right now, which in turn would mean not playing for Marvin, since marvin will be the head coach for this year and next at the least

And while that may not matter to the angry hordes of drunken potato eaters who call Siberia home, it might matter to others. After all, a dispute between a head coach and an underachieving star QB isn't exactly something new or unique. But a players willingness to sacrifice his own career prematurely is.

Again, this points to a change in scenery being called for. Plain and simple.

If Palmer really does quit how will you see him? As a hero? As a victim? Or as the quitter he'd actually prove himself to be?

I will go with both hero and victim. Mostly hero, since the life of a rich man with plenty of free time on his hands is hardly a terrible fate.

[TJJackson]

Actually, he's not making the decision at all. Rather, he's attempting to force others to make the decision about whether he plays again.

Actually, no, he has made the decision.

If you go to a car dealership and decide you want a certain car, and you offer x, and they say they gotta have x + y, you decide to walk away. You've made your decision. All you can do is pay x+y or walk, so you choose walk.

Later, the dealership calls back and says how about x + (y/2). The dealer has decided to alter the circumstances, which is perfectly within their rights and abilities. You now have a second decision to make.

Did you force the dealer to decide to lower the price? No, you didn't. But the dealer had the option to do so. If they did not, it was understood you would not be back to buy the car.

In this circumstance, much like Carson, there are things you cannot control but you can certainly ask for. Mike Brown can choose to find a trade partner (and there are plenty of willing suitors out there) or not. Carson cannot force anyone to make such a decision. His contract allows him to buy the car (play) or walk. He's waked. But he did suggest an alternative, just like you offered to buy the car at a lower price.

if that weren't enough he's dictating the decision be made by parties that would be acting against their own self-interests if they agreed to his demands.

No, as stated above, they don't have to make any decision. They can let it sit, which is what they seem content to do for the moment anyway, and they know the result if they do so - they will save themselves a ton of salary money (which btw, is Son of a Genius's number 1 priority in all things. Carson's salary dollars will help pay for those new whitewalls and air freshener for the Lumina, after all.)

They can also decide to act in any of many different fashions, the most obvious being to trade the player. But they certainly don't have to.

[derekshank]

Did you force the dealer to decide to lower the price? No, you didn't. But the dealer had the option to do so. If they did not, it was understood you would not be back to buy the car.

Sure... that's the assumption, but not necessarily the fact.

Sticking with your car dealership analogy, CarMax has become the most successful car retailer in the country... and one of the things that has made them so successful is by eliminating the haggling aspect of the car buying process.

Do people walk away never to return? Sure. But most people leave the store in hopes that maybe CarMax will budge on the "No Haggle" thing... only to find that they don't receive a call. The customer then decides to go ahead and buy the car, because... well, it'd be great to get the car cheaper - but the sticker price is fair.

Mike Brown isn't negotiating the price. It's a take it or leave it scenario. And players (customers) will eventually realize that this is how Mike Brown (CarMax) does business. And the vast majority of players (consumers) will respect that philosophy... because it works. The ball is in Palmer's court - not MB's.

[Sea Ray]

Mike Brown isn't negotiating the price. It's a take it or leave it scenario. And players (customers) will eventually realize that this is how Mike Brown (CarMax) does business. And the vast majority of players (consumers) will respect that philosophy... because it works. The ball is in Palmer's court - not MB's.

How is the ball in Palmer's court? If we take him at his word, he's retired unless Mike Brown trades him. The ball's in Mike Brown's court. Do you trade him or let him sit?

[derekshank]

Mike Brown isn't negotiating the price. It's a take it or leave it scenario. And players (customers) will eventually realize that this is how Mike Brown (CarMax) does business. And the vast majority of players (consumers) will respect that philosophy... because it works. The ball is in Palmer's court - not MB's.

How is the ball in Palmer's court? If we take him at his word, he's retired unless Mike Brown trades him. The ball's in Mike Brown's court. Do you trade him or let him sit?

Palmer hasn't filed any retirement papers yet, has he?

And Mike Brown has already made his position known... so what's Palmer waiting for? He's waiting for that phone call from CarMax. And it ain't gonna come.

[HairOnFire]

The piece that you claim indicates that he won't play for MARVIN specifically really only means he wont play for the Bengals right now, which in turn would mean not playing for Marvin, since marvin will be the head coach for this year and next at the least

Won't play for the Bengals. Won't play for Marvin. Our unnamed GM said both things, right? So why do you insist upon claiming he only meant half of what he said?

Again, this points to a change in scenery being called for. Plain and simple.

And again, retirement qualifies as a change of scenery which Palmer can embrace plainly and simply if he wants. But he hasn't actually done that, has he? Instead, by proxy he complicates matters by delivering a threat to retire if not traded. A trade that by all accounts the Bengals do NOT want to make.

[cincyhokie]

Mike Brown isn't negotiating the price. It's a take it or leave it scenario. And players (customers) will eventually realize that this is how Mike Brown (CarMax) does business. And the vast majority of players (consumers) will respect that philosophy... because it works. The ball is in Palmer's court - not MB's.

How is the ball in Palmer's court? If we take him at his word, he's retired unless Mike Brown trades him. The ball's in Mike Brown's court. Do you trade him or let him sit?

Palmer hasn't filed any retirement papers yet, has he?

And Mike Brown has already made his position known... so what's Palmer waiting for? He's waiting for that phone call from CarMax. And it ain't gonna come.

So I could also basically say "How do we know Mike Brown is serious until it is even possible that players can be traded?"

As far as I remember, Palmer said he wanted to be traded and if not he would retire. He can't be traded until the CBA is cleared up. Also, what if he did retire and then was traded? All he would have to do is unretire. So what's the point in doing that?

What Palmer HAS said is that he IS NOT playing for the Bengals, not that he is not playing football. There is nothing to sign that allows you to do this. Therefore, it is up to MB to decide in which manner he will not be playing for the Bengals. Trade or retirement.

[HairOnFire]

Carson cannot force anyone to make such a decision. His contract allows him to buy the car (play) or walk. He's waked. But he did suggest an alternative, just like you offered to buy the car at a lower price.

As usual I think you've got things a little bit confused. Because in this example it's far more accurate to describe Carson Palmer as the seller. After all, it is the seller who chooses to offer his product to the highest bidder or keep the valued commodity for himself. But for all of it's value Palmer can't force a sale on any potential buyer, and if he makes too many conditions upon the sale the buyer may not be willing to close the deal even if he is willing to pay the monetary cost. Furthermore, Mike Brown clearly isn't attempting to sell anything. Rather, he's buying, and his standing offer is 11.5 per season in exchange for Palmer's services. Should Palmer withhold those services the buyer, Mike Brown, is free to shop for a replacement.

In this circumstance, much like Carson, there are things you cannot control but you can certainly ask for.

Well, the reason there are things Palmer can't control is because he's selling, not buying. Even worse, he's attempting to sell something he no longer controls the rights to. Worse, he's making too many conditions for the sale to be considered. And complicating matters even further, it's not a unique product he's attempting to unload.

[cincyhokie]

My guess on what Palmer's priorities are:

1. Not play for the Bengals anymore

2. Play football for another team

I would also bet that he is comfortable in his possible scenario to retire. According to those who know him, such as Andrew Whitworth, and other sources around the league...he is serious about his wish to not play for the Bengals. His choice has been made. "I'm not playing for the Bengals."

Why? I don't care. Is it Marvin? Is it Chad? Is is his locker too small? Who cares? What if it is Marvin? What if it is Chad? What if he is a pu**y? The Man is GONE. Even if he does come back and play for the Bengals, can he really come back? Because I seriously question anyone's sanity that would want him back playing for this team. And I'd bet that if he did come back there are players on this team that would seriously question this organization more than they already do.

Is it Marvin? We're fuc*ed for at least 2 years.

Is it Chad? We're fuc*ed for another year at least.

Is it his wife? Whew, that means the Bengals aren't that bad...right?

Is it Mike Brown? We're fuc*ed for the forseeable future...all of our success the past 20 years is about to be flushed...right?

[derekshank]

Mike Brown isn't negotiating the price. It's a take it or leave it scenario. And players (customers) will eventually realize that this is how Mike Brown (CarMax) does business. And the vast majority of players (consumers) will respect that philosophy... because it works. The ball is in Palmer's court - not MB's.

How is the ball in Palmer's court? If we take him at his word, he's retired unless Mike Brown trades him. The ball's in Mike Brown's court. Do you trade him or let him sit?

Palmer hasn't filed any retirement papers yet, has he?

And Mike Brown has already made his position known... so what's Palmer waiting for? He's waiting for that phone call from CarMax. And it ain't gonna come.

So I could also basically say "How do we know Mike Brown is serious until it is even possible that players can be traded?"

As far as I remember, Palmer said he wanted to be traded and if not he would retire. He can't be traded until the CBA is cleared up. Also, what if he did retire and then was traded? All he would have to do is unretire. So what's the point in doing that?

Unretiring is easy enough to do.

Palmer made a request to be traded. It was denied. Palmer gave an ultimatum. MB stood firm. No trade.

What am I missing here? Palmer is hoping MB changes his mind. But the decision is his to make. And unlike MB, he's yet to demonstrate he has the balls to follow through on his word.

[TJJackson]

Palmer hasn't filed any retirement papers yet, has he?

And Mike Brown has already made his position known... so what's Palmer waiting for? He's waiting for that phone call from CarMax. And it ain't gonna come.

Both sides have made their decision. That said, both sides can reconsider their decision at any time. Carson can decide he wants to play even in this bad situation. Son of a Genius can have a rare moment of competency and decide to listen to trade offers (yeah, its a lockout, but phones are not shut off. Talks occur privately if folks WANT them to occur.)

So both sides have made their decision, and both sides can change their mind.

That said, the side with the most options is SoaG's

[TJJackson]

Won't play for the Bengals. Won't play for Marvin. Our unnamed GM said both things, right? So why do you insist upon claiming he only meant half of what he said?

Same question right back to you...as you are claiming its all about Marvin. It might well be, at that - neither of us has the real story from the horse's mouth, and I dont expect we ever will. That said, I dont think the article in questions proves your 'its all on Marvin' point, or even really states it.

And again, retirement qualifies as a change of scenery which Palmer can embrace plainly and simply if he wants. But he hasn't actually done that, has he? Instead, by proxy he complicates matters by delivering a threat to retire if not traded. A trade that by all accounts the Bengals do NOT want to make.

Allow me to clarify. Change of scenery as in a new uniform, stadium, city, team, etc.

Call Retirement a threat if you like. However, given that playing for the Bengals is ruled out, what other options are there? None. Just like a working grunt like you or I, at least in this sense, Carson has the choice to work for his contracted employer or walk. You and I can go work for another convenience store or fast food restaurant, no problem, but we aren't covered by a collective bargaining agreement limiting who we work for - a limitation every NFL player (and especially Carson) is paid a princely handsomely to accept.

Since he has no other options than the two - one of which is unacceptable to him - I dont see retirement as a threat, just a simple reality

[HairOnFire]

Unretiring is easy enough to do.

Yup. In fact, the only thing that might be easier is denying you ever said the things that were said in your behalf.

[HairOnFire]

Won't play for the Bengals. Won't play for Marvin. Our unnamed GM said both things, right? So why do you insist upon claiming he only meant half of what he said?

Same question right back to you...as you are claiming its all about Marvin.

I'm claiming nothing of the sort. Granted, my gut tells me that the primary problem is between Palmer and Lewis but I have precious little proof to back my opinion. In fact, most sources who claim to have insider information still insist Palmer's demands are the direct result of his wife being unhappy. I acknowledge that opinion as well, but I have no idea how much weight to give it.

But that said, the unnamed GM specifically said Palmer wouldn't play for the Bengals, and then later added the bit about not playing for Marvin. I acknowledge both statements. You on the other hand only acknowledge one. Furthermore, you repeatedly claim that Palmer's beef is with Mike Brown despite the fact that Palmer went out of his way to show his respect for Brown when making his trade request public. By comparison, he refused to even comment on the news that Marvin had been retained as head coach.

That said, I dont think the article in questions proves your 'its all on Marvin' point, or even really states it.

Call it circumstantial evidence then. Whatever you choose to call it one thing is certain, it's far more solid than your Siberian used car rant. In fact, the only reason the unnamed GM mentioned Mike Brown at all was to make clear who was responsible for fixing the mess and what his response was likely to be. All of which would be true even if Palmer's frustration was with Lewis, right?

Call Retirement a threat if you like. However, given that playing for the Bengals is ruled out, what other options are there?

By nearly all accounts Mike Brown hasn't ruled out Palmer returning. Furthermore, talk of retirement is indeed a threat since the result would likely be negative upon the Bengals chances of winning, small as they might be.

You and I can go work for another convenience store or fast food restaurant, no problem, but we aren't covered by a collective bargaining agreement limiting who we work for - a limitation every NFL player (and especially Carson) is paid a princely handsomely to accept.

Exactly. And Palmer has already been handsomely paid for agreeing to a contract that still has four years remaining. So why would any owner agree to let Palmer out of that contract if the end result will almost certainly hurt the team on the field and off? Why should Palmer be granted a ticket out if doing so dictates 52 other players are left behind to play on a team made even worse? What makes Palmer so special? In fact, isn't it true that most of Palmer's leverage is the direct result of things the Bengals have done FOR Palmer in the recent past, from the staggering size of his contract to the Bengals willingness to employ his brother as a backup QB?

[cincyhokie]

If Palmer retires it should insinuate that he is ok with retiring. If he does retire that has much more of an effect on Mike Brown and the Bengals than it does Palmer. So ultimately the party that has the most to lose is Mike Brown. In fact this situation, again, comes back to the Bengals because this is a microcosm of what the Bengals have so long NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO. Invest their focus on a system and not players.

The Bengals can choose to get caught up in the Palmers, the Dillons, the Pickens, the Esiasons...all along missing the most important factor...the team. A system. Players that fit the system and players that want to play for the Bengals. MOST teams would find the path of least resistance to meet their teams goals outlined by their system.

Instead of finding willing players to fit the mission, we're worried about proving a point...over a player...who hasn't proven all that much. And in turn, missing the opportunity to get players in compensation that can build for the teams present and future. But hey, we can be the most losing team over the last 20 years that holds ground. Great. I'd rather have the wins in the long run.

Instead here we are...focusing on a player. A single player. And acting such as one player is the key to bringing success or failure to the team. If the Bengals and Mike Brown focus on the BIGGER picture they will see that Palmer is the side issue in this matter. What will their decision reflect on their bigger plans?

[cincyhokie]

By nearly all accounts Mike Brown hasn't ruled out Palmer returning. Furthermore, talk of retirement is indeed a threat since the result would likely be negative upon the Bengals chances of winning, small as they might be.

Doesn't the thought of Mike Brown wanting a player to return that doesn't fit the teams long term mission and goals worry anyone? Doesn't this possibility worry anyone that might want Mike Brown to focus on the team and not so much one player? Palmer is GONE, if not physically, he is mentally GONE. And Mike Brown wants him to return?

This worries me. Who wants players that don't want to return to play for the team's mission? What is Mike Brown's mission? WHEN has he EVER stated that winning the Super Bowl is his mission? What the hell is the point? Anyone?

[cincyhokie]

So here we are. Focusing on Mike Brown's emphasis on winning the small wars. The player contracts. The stadium deals. All of which, I will concede, are somewhat valid. We've heard the the team's stance on holding true to their beliefs and values concerning the short term wars.

When have we ever heard Mike Brown state his overall goal? Anyone? Anything? I for one, have never heard this organization commit to long term winning, let alone a Superbowl.

Yet, we'll hang on to what we can influence and gain in the short term. And here we are. 21 years later. Still looking at the small points. The vision of this team is still very much to be desired. Where's the drive and passion to win a Superbowl? Have we ever heard that? Have we ever seen that from Mike Brown?

Anyone?

[COB]

Superbowls? Let's get the oxcart out of the ditch first.

[TJJackson]

talk of retirement is indeed a threat since the result would likely be negative upon the Bengals chances of winning, small as they might be.

Nah. Palmer would have to intend ill for it to be a threat. Instead, he merely is exercising to walk away form the car......err.....contract. Ie the only other option he has besides re-donning the jersey number 9

If you (anyone, but since we're talking, its you) quit a job, are you threatening your boss? No, you aren't. You are exercising an option available to you. And much like Carson, you have a reason for doing so that generally/usually has to do with dissatisfaction with the current job -- be it not enough pay, insufficient vacation, or the lack of a ganja-smoking lounge for glaucoma sufferers like yourself. Or the organization is a f*cking joke. Everyone has their own reason.

Palmer has already been handsomely paid for agreeing to a contract that still has four years remaining. So why would any owner agree to let Palmer out of that contract if the end result will almost certainly hurt the team on the field and off?

You've missed the point. The contract continues...even if Carson doesn't show up all year. And....you trade the player, you trade the contract that goes with it. Remember that 11.5? A big win in the only game Son-of-a-genius really is competent to play, and the only one he truly enjoys playing. Carson would likely fetch a 1 and a 3, maybe even a 1 and a 2, and I certainly don't see any harm in picking up more top quality talent....talent that should be a lot cheaper than what we pay Carson. Again, a win win win for SOAG.

Why should Palmer be granted a ticket out if doing so dictates 52 other players are left behind to play on a team made even worse? What makes Palmer so special?

A very, very silly and even childish question. Did you question your aren't apportionment of ice cream to your brothers/sisters and cry foul when you seemed to get half a teaspoonsfull less than they, and wonder out loud what made them so special?

Let me work it out for you. I am of a belief that Carson's value is more like what he showed in the final 3 games rather than the first 13. I might well be wrong, but that's my starting point, and that (combined with Carson's relative youth and the scarcity of quality starting QBs around the league is what makes him so special. We're not gonna get a first and a third for Muckleroy, Geathers, or (why not) RunPee. We're just not. Carson is a commodity of sorts, a rare one, one who we can be paid handsomely for but who gives us no value. This is easy math.

In fact, isn't it true that most of Palmer's leverage is the direct result of things the Bengals have done FOR Palmer in the recent past, from the staggering size of his contract to the Bengals willingness to employ his brother as a backup QB?

Nah. He doesn't really have any leverage, actually. He has the two aforementioned choices and works for the least intelligent man in the NFL, a man devoid of football sense.

The person with leverage is said aforesaid least intelligent man in the NFL. He holds a contract he can trade for great value, and he has leverage because of the rarity the talent controlled by that contract and the desire by other far more intelligent men with his same job title to acquire said contract.

and employing Runpee was (is?) just staggeringly stupid, which is par for the course in Siberia :-)

[TJJackson]

What is Mike Brown's mission?

1) Earn Rake in lots of money

2) Dont take any risks

3) Pass the team on to Pumpkie

4) Get a tuneup soon for the Lumina, but dont forget the coupon

[ArmyBengal]

For the mission claim, I once heard Mike Brown said he wants to be "competitive".

Sounds like a t-shirt in the making...

[HairOnFire]

talk of retirement is indeed a threat since the result would likely be negative upon the Bengals chances of winning, small as they might be.

Nah. Palmer would have to intend ill for it to be a threat.

That's ridiculous. Regardless of whether you believe the stories told by Palmer's gardener or his real estate agent all parties are pointing to Palmer wanting out for personal, individual, and selfish reasons. In fact, his demands are made without any consideration being given to the team he'd be leaving behind, and as a result I wonder aloud why the team he'd leave behind would give any further consideration to Palmer's wishes.

If you (anyone, but since we're talking, its you) quit a job, are you threatening your boss? No, you aren't.

Yes, you are. Because in this example Palmer isn't simply retiring. He's threatening to retire if he isn't traded to the competition.

You've missed the point. The contract continues...even if Carson doesn't show up all year.

I haven't missed that point at all. In fact, I'm counting on it.

Everyone has their own reason.

And what exactly are Palmer's reasons? I ask because the reasons are important to me when considering what to do next. Others couldn't care less.

Let me work it out for you. I am of a belief that Carson's value is more like what he showed in the final 3 games rather than the first 13. I might well be wrong, but that's my starting point....

I don't disagree, but just for the sake of argument let's say you're wrong. Let's say the offers for Palmer more closely resemble the single 2nd round pick that Hokie and Hoosier say is sufficient. Furthermore, lets say there is some truth behind the rant that Palmer would be worth just as much or more if traded the following season. If true, Mike Brown could let Palmer rot and then recoup his trade value next year without compromising.

That works for me.

and employing Runpee was (is?) just staggeringly stupid, which is par for the course in Siberia :-)

If you ask me the decision to emply RunPee as Carson's backup is just another example of how the Bengals have attempted to feather Carson's bed, and yeah....they're paying the price for that now. But seeing how little Palmer appreciated the gesture why should the Bengals consider doing anything new that only serves to feather a bed in San Francisco, Arizona, et cetera.

[TJJackson]

I dont believe a NFL players worth increases as he idles.

Idle players rot on the vine, so to speak.

So no, he needs to be traded (assuming we HAVE a "this year") this year.

I think a 2 would be on the low end of what they could get for Palmer. They can hold out a bit for something better, and assuredly, when the first starting QB gets hurt in camp, preseason, or early regular season, a better offer will indeed come.

I'd even speculate the a handful of teams with playoff aspirations have this as a contingency in their current season's plan - if our starter gets hurt, go get Palmer. They'll fork over a 1 plus a 2 or 3 in 2012 to keep their playoff hopes alive for 2011.

[HairOnFire]

I dont believe a NFL players worth increases as he idles.

Depends on the player, his age, surrounding circumstances, and....(wait for it)....fluctuations in the marketplace.

Idle players rot on the vine, so to speak.

See above player/age/circumstance/marketplace rant.

From once idled Mike Vick to still idled Robert Quinn to momentarily idled Ben Rapistberger....NFL teams are no strangers to welcoming back players who have been idled for all manner of reasons.

I think a 2 would be on the low end of what they could get for Palmer.

Fair enough. So to recap, you think Palmer is worth a 1st and a 3rd, but may have to settle for a 2nd....which you would settle for. Furthermore, despite your high opinion of Palmer you can envision no scenario where Palmers value might be higher next year, presumably under more normal market conditions, than that single 2nd round pick you'd settle for this year.

Poop, I say.

They can hold out a bit for something better, and assuredly, when the first starting QB gets hurt in camp, preseason, or early regular season, a better offer will indeed come.

Here's a question for all of my fellow fake GM's. Would your interest in trading FOR Palmer be less or greater depending upon the number of games lost due to labor unrest? More specifically, would you be more or less willing to part with a high draft pick from this years draft if half of the 2011 regular season was lost?

[ArmyBengal]

I know owners are still allowed to talk to each other through all of this crap and I'm left to wonder, since they can't trade players for picks in the draft (see Carson for a 1st rounder), would a team call Mike Brown and say, if there is a player you are targeting in this years draft that you would be able to acquire if you traded Carson to us, who would it be ?? Then after the CBA is complete, make the player for player swap plus whatever else they feel is fair in the trade (see future draft picks etc.)...

I know that sounds like a complicated idea and it doesn't have to be exact, but something along those lines.

Thoughts from the masses ??