Bengals vs Ravens post game discussion

[jonahdsage]

I said the bengals dominated the ravens and I stick by it. If someone didn't watch week 1's game and just saw the score, they wouldn't think the bengals got "dominated" by new england. If you watched that game, though, you would know otherwise. I think the same is true for this last week's game at PBS. The ravens didn't score many points because the bengals' D shut them down. The bengals didn't score many points because we dropped passes, made bad throws or didn't have penalties called. What was so frustrating about the game was that the Ravens just weren't pushing the bengals around or making these stellar stops defensively. I'm happy to play ball control, keep the football safe against teams like the Ravens -- I think that's a big part why palmer is 9-3 against them or whatever the stat is. Make no mistake about it, though -- the bengals dictated how the game was played and moved the ball until they made a mistake.

SO yeah, I think the bengals dominated the ravens.

[Arizona]

I'll concede the tripping point as I haven't read the rule. If it's strict liability, then that's it, end of story. It's not quite "fair" in my view, but ok.

@Jonah, I watched that Pats Bengals game. We didn't play until Monday night remember? Their first quarter against you looked like our first quarter against them last year in the playoffs. One team could do no wrong, one team could do no right. Perhaps we're having a semantic disagreement about what domination means, but I've just given my definition.

Also, you want to give the Ravens D no credit and claim it was offensive failures on the Bengals part? What do you say about the four big catches TJ dropped? Was that the offensive player not making plays they normally do, or was that your defense stopping them? Whatever you claim for the latter you should claim for the former. I think both defenses punched both offenses in the mouth.

@DC Let me confirm that you're saying that the Ravens players should have known better and clearly violated the rules. Do you remember a play a few years ago when a defensive player went to sack the quarterback, was afraid the qb had let go off the ball, and so released the quarterback, who still had the ball, ran away and made a play? That's what we would see if players played the way you wanted them to. The pendulum has swung too far. I agree with stopping blows to the head and stopping low blows that blow out knees. But I can't bear a world where it is a penalty to tackle the QB too hard. Seriously. The penalty was for tackling him with more than the minimum amount of force needed.

[membengal]

Arizona, I don't know of anyone who seriously thinks that was a good call on the Suggs tackle. It was also bulls**t. Pretty sure most here have easily agreed. This is a fanbase still mad as hell when the exact same bulls**t call happened against the Bengals and Justin Smith in 2007 in Tampa.

That said, again, those calls were not why Baltimore lost the game, and I (and others I suspect) have little patience for posts that seem to argue that from a Ravens fan.

They were BAD CALLS. But they were NOT the only BAD CALLS in that game, and the Bengals had some BAD CALLS go against them too. For better or worse, teams have to find a way around the BAD CALLS. And the Ravens didn't. And it sure as hell wasn't why the Ravens lost. So stop peddling same.

[skyline]

So much drama over so little.

Both Ds had very strong showings, end of story. Yes, the Bengals offense can be partly blamed for missed opportunities, but as Arizona pointed out, that's football. At the end of the day, we held the Ravens to 10 points, and they stopped us from scoring a single touchdown. Enough said.

The tripping call is what it is. Tripping is tripping from what I understand. The roughing the passer call was complete nonsense, but then so was the lack of a pass interference call against T.O. in the endzone. Again...that's football.

The Bengals won, and I think they deserved it. A team shouldn't win when they're -4 on turnovers. That said, I'm guessing a lot of Ravens fans disagree, and that's fine. That's why there are 16 games every season and not 2.

Can we move on now?

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

@DC Let me confirm that you're saying that the Ravens players should have known better and clearly violated the rules. Do you remember a play a few years ago when a defensive player went to sack the quarterback, was afraid the qb had let go off the ball, and so released the quarterback, who still had the ball, ran away and made a play? .... The penalty was for tackling him with more than the minimum amount of force needed.

Right. Suggs didn't just take Palmer down, he slammed him, and he did it intentionally. Now you can argue whether that should be penalized or not. Hell, I might even agree with you. But the point is that Suggs could have put Palmer on the ground without risking either penalty or some miracle play, so your beef is with him. Again, this whole notion of the QB wearing a skirt isn't new, so you can't play the "I can't believe this!" card. Tell me that call doesn't get made about half the time.

You can adapt to the rules and win, or you can play Don Quixote and lose if you prefer. In this case, your coaches need to tell the pass rushers that they have to consider the situation when teeing off on the QB. I'd probably avoid it on 3rd and long, late in the game, and anything that puts the other team in FG range.

Again, I'm not saying I like this brave new NFL, but it's the way it is. I do at least find it ironic that we have these rules in no small part due to years of Raven cheap shots on QBs. Karma.

[skyline]

@DC Let me confirm that you're saying that the Ravens players should have known better and clearly violated the rules. Do you remember a play a few years ago when a defensive player went to sack the quarterback, was afraid the qb had let go off the ball, and so released the quarterback, who still had the ball, ran away and made a play? .... The penalty was for tackling him with more than the minimum amount of force needed.

Again, I'm not saying I like this brave new NFL, but it's the way it is. I do at least find it ironic that we have these rules in no small part due to years of Raven cheap shots on QBs. Karma.

You think so? Got anything to back that up?

I think it's been a culmination of injuries to the biggest stars in the league that caused the rule changes. You think the Ravens are worse offenders than anyone else? I don't see it.

[Stripes]

You think the Ravens are worse offenders than anyone else?

Only in that they've pressured more quarterbacks than most other teams over the last decade. You're right, they're no more guilty than any other team.

[Stripes]

Also, directed at nobody in particular... Arizona did state why he thought the Ravens lost, and the reason didn't have anything to do with penalty flags.

[Sea Ray]

What do you say about the four big catches TJ dropped? Was that the offensive player not making plays they normally do, or was that your defense stopping them? Whatever you claim for the latter you should claim for the former. I think both defenses punched both offenses in the mouth.

TJ was blanketed all day and that's why he dropped those passes. If a blanketed Bengal dropped a pass then I'll say the same thing

[COB]

What do you say about the four big catches TJ dropped?

I say Karma must have had a 50 yard line seat at that game.

The penalty was for tackling him with more than the minimum amount of force needed.

Agreed, that "penalty" was a joke. And anyone who says it didn't affect the outcome of the game is delusional. Every play affects the outcome of a game. None of the plays after that one were predetermined.

The reason Ravens fans always complain that they are getting screwed by the refs is because they are often getting screwed by the refs. Go back and look at the Ravens-Patriots Monday night game a couple years ago.

Whether the Ravens players bring said screwing on themselves by inciting hyper-vigilance in the officials with an overly aggresive, dirty playing style is a different issue.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

You think the Ravens are worse offenders than anyone else?

Only in that they've pressured more quarterbacks than most other teams over the last decade. You're right, they're no more guilty than any other team.

I recall the 2000 season when they were out to intentionally injure QBs as much as possible.

[skyline]

You think the Ravens are worse offenders than anyone else?

Only in that they've pressured more quarterbacks than most other teams over the last decade. You're right, they're no more guilty than any other team.

I recall the 2000 season when they were out to intentionally injure QBs as much as possible.

Huh? If you say so...again, I'd be curious to see that backed up with fact.

[HairOnFire]

The narcissist in me loves the fact that I am at the center of one of your debates.

I wouldn't put you at the center, but you did become involved when you offered an opinion that I've made before, and one that Hoosier has never agreed with. In short, you just bought skin in a game that's been going on for quite some time now.

I haven't visited the site much at all today... so I'm relieved to learn of a logical explanation for my Q-tips bursting into flames while doing my nightly ear hygiene ritual.

Frankly, you're a very strange person and I have to admit it troubles me a bit when I think about how often I find myself agreeing with you. But when you're right you're right. Or in this example, when you're right I'm right....and that works for me just as well.

That said... i find it all humorous and a bit beside the point. Game logs don't tell the story I was complaining about. I had a single solitary sentence saying "I want to run the ball on 1st down more often than not" (A comment I stand behind).

Exactly. Statistics and game logs do little more than document what took place. They say nothing in regards to what might have taken place or what should have taken place. For that you need opinions, not crap stats. And to that end you and I have both called for "more" running plays on 1st down, and I specifically don't give a rats patoot about balance, making divas happy, using every weapon in the arsenal, or playing a style of offense that best suites the QB. Winning is my sole consideration, and IMHO running the football gives THIS team it's best chance of doing that.

I was regularly frustrated regarding pass attempts on 1st down... but not nearly as upset as I was with the 3WR formations that the Bengals regularly chose to run the ball out of.

Familiar themes I've expressed myself on numerous occasions....always provoking responses that the sample size is too small or I don't know what I'm talking about or that I'm seeing things that aren't actually happening. Yet you're seeing those things too, right?

But by all means... continue debating a topic, that despite the numerous references, I have very little to do with.

I'm guessing we're done for awhile. Because blood has been spilled, crap stats have been exhausted, and enough time has passed for our beloved Hoosier to sober up a bit.

Besides, it's off to Carolina now where I believe the script calls for more grinding, not less, and hopefully another ugly win. We move on.

[HairOnFire]

I find it ironic how often Ray Lewis says there's too much crying in football.

BTW, I was reading the GoBengals messageboard when I stumbled across a series of posts that mocked Ray Lewis by repeatedly referring to him as "Stabby"....a tag I bestowed on him years ago.

Not really sure how I feel about that. On one hand I'm flattered. On the other I'm slightly offended that I wasn't credited.

[HoosierCat]

And if you do stumble over something that actually supports the OTHER guys position, well....you've got to post it.

And I will. Unfortunately, all I've found is some other guy's crap stats that ignore two-thirds of the time the Bengals held the ball.

[HairOnFire]

And if you do stumble over something that actually supports the OTHER guys position, well....you've got to post it.

And I will. Unfortunately, all I've found is some other guy's crap stats that ignore two-thirds of the time the Bengals held the ball.

Rule #1 of the Hoosier Dicta - Crap stats beget crap stats.

BTW, shouldn't you be drying out in rehab somewhere?

[HoosierCat]

And if you do stumble over something that actually supports the OTHER guys position, well....you've got to post it.

And I will. Unfortunately, all I've found is some other guy's crap stats that ignore two-thirds of the time the Bengals held the ball.

Rule #1 of the Hoosier Dicta - Crap stats beget crap stats.

Well, your end result certainly meets that definition. But let me ask the question you passed over before again, and maybe we can get into that realm of opinion which you, by your own admission, value more. How do you square your disgust with this 12 minutes of (mostly) pass-on-first possessions with the fact that it coincides with their best drive of the day -- and comes after getting nowhere running on first down three straight times? Is it so surprising that after finding success with the pass, and grinding out a balanced 6 minute, 50+-yard drive for a FG that they would come back to what was working in the next couple of possessions?

[HairOnFire]

How do you square your disgust with this 12 minutes of (mostly) pass-on-first possessions with the fact that it coincides with their best drive of the day -- and comes after getting nowhere running on first down three straight times?

You keep calling that drive the best of the day as if the three points produced were somehow worth more than any of the four other drives that resulted in a FG.

And since you're in the mood to ask questions over and over again how about answering one of mine that you've dodged twice. (So far.) When you were doing your drunken breakdown did you really miss the switch in strategy or did you simply ignore it because it supported what I had claimed?

Not that it matters much, but I'm trying to determine how you and I go forward. Do I simply write it all off because you were drunk? (Alcoholic amnesty!) Or was it just another example of garden variety incompetence? Or even worse, is something else at play here?

[HairOnFire]

Is it so surprising that after finding success with the pass, and grinding out a balanced 6 minute, 50+-yard drive for a FG that they would come back to what was working in the next couple of possessions?

Again, the Bengals averaged a full 6 yards per play on those first three attempts....nearly 2 yards a play more than they gained when passing on first down in the 1st half.

And even a drunk must know that 6 is more than 4, right?

[HoosierCat]

And since you're in the mood to ask questions over and over again how about answering one of mine that you've dodged twice. (So far.) When you were doing your drunken breakdown did you really miss the switch in strategy or did you simply ignore it because it supported what I had claimed?

I didn't miss anything. Didn't I just ask you why you think they should have quit doing what was working? I'm still waiting...

[HoosierCat]

Again, the Bengals averaged a full 6 yards per play on those first three attempts....nearly 2 yards a play more than they gained when passing on first down in the 1st half.

And even a drunk must know that 6 is more than 4, right?

Averages are, as usual, deceiving. That was a 4, 5 and 9, if memory serves, and all the drives stalled thereafter, whether they ran or passed. Again, once they started throwing on first, they started moving the ball, so what's your beef?

[Arizona]

So it seems only disagreeing with a vocal minority. Generally we all agree: calls sucked all over the place, had an effect on game but wasn't determinative. Ravens made too many mistakes and lost the game. Both defenses played well.

[redsbengalsbucks]

I find it ironic how often Ray Lewis says there's too much crying in football.

BTW, I was reading the GoBengals messageboard when I stumbled across a series of posts that mocked Ray Lewis by repeatedly referring to him as "Stabby"....a tag I bestowed on him years ago.

Not really sure how I feel about that. On one hand I'm flattered. On the other I'm slightly offended that I wasn't credited.

Yes, only you could be witty enough to come up with such an original nickname. It isnt like he was one of the main characters involved in a stabbing, or anyhting like that.

[skyline]

So it seems only disagreeing with a vocal minority. Generally we all agree: calls sucked all over the place, had an effect on game but wasn't determinative. Ravens made too many mistakes and lost the game. Both defenses played well.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

[redsbengalsbucks]

So it seems only disagreeing with a vocal minority. Generally we all agree: calls sucked all over the place, had an effect on game but wasn't determinative. Ravens made too many mistakes and lost the game. Both defenses played well.

It is amazing to me, that Ravens fans on this site almost always seem to be well-informed football fans(even if they are a little delusional at times). That is a very nice break from Brownie and Stealer fans.

Kudos, Arizona and good luck against the rest of the AFCN!