Mike Brown Seeks Option to leave in 2017.

[Kazkal]

Even Though it would make it so I could Attend games on a normal Baisis I would hate to see the Bengals move out of Cincinnati,One the Bengals name belongs to cinci 2# If LA gets a team needs be the Rams(only team my dad has ever followed)

[Ickey44]

Sadly, I don't think Brown is seriously considering moving the team.

You want them to move?

I don't speak for Hair... but since I know he lives in Cali and never cheered for the Bengals because of their location - he'd be tickled pink if they moved to L.A.

SO WOULD I !!!!!!!!!! The Los Angeles Bengals has a nice ring to it, and I wouldn't have to wait until they play the Chargers to see games live....

No, no it doesn't....

[redsbengalsbucks]

Sadly, I don't think Brown is seriously considering moving the team.

You want them to move?

I don't speak for Hair... but since I know he lives in Cali and never cheered for the Bengals because of their location - he'd be tickled pink if they moved to L.A.

SO WOULD I !!!!!!!!!! The Los Angeles Bengals has a nice ring to it, and I wouldn't have to wait until they play the Chargers to see games live....

If that were to happen I would not have to come on this site to check the latest ramblings of my favorite team. I would no longer be a fan. I would be in search of a new AFC team. That would have to be between Houston, Jacksonville or Miami.

[Ickey44]

Sadly, I don't think Brown is seriously considering moving the team.

You want them to move?

I don't speak for Hair... but since I know he lives in Cali and never cheered for the Bengals because of their location - he'd be tickled pink if they moved to L.A.

SO WOULD I !!!!!!!!!! The Los Angeles Bengals has a nice ring to it, and I wouldn't have to wait until they play the Chargers to see games live....

If that were to happen I would not have to come on this site to check the latest ramblings of my favorite team. I would no longer be a fan. I would be in search of a new AFC team. That would have to be between Houston, Jacksonville or Miami.

Same here. I don't think I could support them if they just up and left. I'd have to become a Lions fan.....

[gregstephens]

Sadly, I don't think Brown is seriously considering moving the team.

You want them to move?

I don't speak for Hair... but since I know he lives in Cali and never cheered for the Bengals because of their location - he'd be tickled pink if they moved to L.A.

SO WOULD I !!!!!!!!!! The Los Angeles Bengals has a nice ring to it, and I wouldn't have to wait until they play the Chargers to see games live....

I agree on this. I understand a Californian like Hair wanted to see the team come to him. I don't fault that position at all. I've been in Cincy all my life. I've grown up on the local team. I'll support a local team. Once SoP takes them away, I just hope it's a Cleveland deal where we keep the colors, history, etc and get a replacement.

If that were to happen I would not have to come on this site to check the latest ramblings of my favorite team. I would no longer be a fan. I would be in search of a new AFC team. That would have to be between Houston, Jacksonville or Miami.

Same here. I don't think I could support them if they just up and left. I'd have to become a Lions fan.....

[HairOnFire]

It's funny that when I first saw the headline and skimmed the article I thought it was a positive gesture on the part of the Bengals.

It is. Even Todd Portune, local professional douchebag, admits as much in the very article you posted. Granted, Todd quickly complains about the "strings attached"....thereby turning attention from the "remarkably generous offer".....to the highly unlikely outcome where the Bengals leave in 2017. But that's just a blatant example of a politician attempting to control the message by downplaying a real positive while overstating the potential risk.

Again, toxic local politics. A toxic local press. A fanbase filled with self-loathing douchebags all too willing to assume the worst. Mix it all together and the grand gesture Paul Daugherty previously insisted might help turn the tide of public sentiment in Mike Brown's favor becomes instead, as I predicted, just one more reason for the locals to s**t themselves.

[HairOnFire]

Hamilton County is in an odd position. They are tremendously weak financially, so weak that they may not be able to meet contractual financial obligations to the Bengals.

Oh, they'll meet them...one way or another. Because if Todd Portune has managed to accomplish nothing else...he's proven the lease is iron-clad and bulletproof, and as a result any concessions made by the Bengals have to be viewed as willing.

In their great weakness there lies great strength. It is what Mike Brown senses and why he is coming to the table now. I'm talking about bankruptcy, and I guarantee you Mike Brown and Pumpkin are thinking about it.

Fair enough, but the actions now being taken by the Bengals are those of a local business that wants to remain just that. And they're almost certainly not asking for an option to leave because they actually want to, but because they're most important business partner "may not be able to meet contractual obligations to the Bengals."

If Hamilton County has to file bankruptcy, they will get themselves released from that contract. The County will very likely end up retaining ownership of the stadium. The Browns will then have to go back to the table and negotiate a new lease, or look elsewhere for a City to take them in and provide a better lease. Both options are messy and expensive.

I'm guessing the option to stay, under the circumstances described, would be far messier than simply relocating.

[HairOnFire]

I don't speak for Hair... but since I know he lives in Cali and never cheered for the Bengals because of their location - he'd be tickled pink if they moved to L.A.

Or for that matter.....anywhere else.

[TJJackson]

Nah

Brown is what he always has been - a money grubbing man who has some talents when it comes to legal issues but is severely deficient as a football man.

The offer does indeed come off at first glace as grand and generous, but when one digs deeper, it isn't - it is entirely self-serving, with a heaping scoop of bullcrap "look how nice we are" served up to the public.

This is the same organization that declared it was not right to raise ticket prices in such an economic climate, and then did so anyway in what is basically the same s**tty economic environment the day after another one-and-out playoff game

As an aside - I have to wonder what Hair, who has long derided the possibility of a bubble and those who spoke in it's favor, felt when he read the part where they are looking for assistance in building an indoor practice facility. Your buddy SoaG wants a bubble too, Hair.......

(for the record - I personally dont care if they get a bubble or not, unless it is to be paid for with public money, in which case I am very much against it)

[HairOnFire]

The offer does indeed come off at first glace as grand and generous...

It is grand and generous. Todd Portune admits as much.

....but when one digs deeper....

Don't you mean when you spin it? Because you're not digging deeper. In fact, you're incapable of digging anything that hasn't been shoveled by others. You've got no access to the persons involved, no expertise in the matters being discussed, and nothing to complain about that wasn't directly spoon fed into your gaping hole by Todd Portune, the most biased and self serving source you'll ever meet.

NADS

[HairOnFire]

As an aside - I have to wonder what Hair, who has long derided the possibility of a bubble and those who spoke in it's favor, felt when he read the part where they are looking for assistance in building an indoor practice facility.

What did I feel?

Mostly nothing. After all, Brown has shown interest in a practice facility before, and once promised to revisit the issue once the lawsuit was dropped, tossed, kicked, and fairly booted out of court.

He's also said he has no interest in a cheap plastic bubble, prefers a brick and mortar type, doesn't think the nearby practice fields are suitable for conversion, and years ago expressed some interest in a nearby site the city was said to control.

Your buddy SoaG wants a bubble too, Hair.......

That's never been in dispute. The question is how much does Brown want a private practice facility and what's he willing to do to get one. The answer to date is not much, and I'm perfectly fine with that....just as I'll be fine if they actually build one. I simply don't think it's an important issue.

And there's the proverbial rub because neither do you.

...for the record - I personally dont care if they get a bubble or not, unless it is to be paid for with public money, in which case I am very much against it)

Exactly. You don't give a s**t. And neither do any of the dinks who endlessly demand something be purchased, at great expense, using somebody elses money.

[HairOnFire]

County studies Cincinnati Bengals' offer

By Jessica Brown • jlbrown@enquirer.com • February 1, 2010

CINCINNATI - The Cincinnati Bengals have extended the proverbial olive branch to Hamilton County, offering $40 million in concessions to help ease financial problems in the county's stadium fund. But that offer won't fix the problem and comes with several strings - one of which, if true, would soundly sink the deal.

The county commissioners say one of the concessions appears to allow the Bengals to end the lease - and potentially leave Cincinnati - in 2017. That's nearly 10 years earlier than the current lease allows. The Bengals, however, told the media and commissioners that they are not asking to get out of the lease early. The paragraph in question simply solidifies the lease as it currently stands, until 2016, according to the team.

No matter how the offer is read, the Bengals' concessions still won't generate enough revenue to fix county's stadium fund. That means the county - aka the taxpayers - still have a lot of money to come up with before this problem is solved.

"The numbers aren't enough to solve the entire stadium fund problem," Commissioner David Pepper said. "This is part of the solution, but not all of it."

Hamilton County voters approved a sales tax increase in 1996 to pay for new stadiums for the Reds and the Bengals. At the time the Bengals were scouting other cities. Without a new stadium, they said they would leave town. Sales tax revenue, however, has fallen short of projections, leading to the deficit. The fund contains enough to pay the stadium debt, which legally is paid first. But starting next year it won't have enough money to pay for additional expenses such as money in lieu of taxes to the Cincinnati Public School District, operations of both stadiums, and a tax break to homeowners.

Some of the commissioners have floated revenue ideas including another sales tax hike, a cigarette tax, or a ticket tax to bridge the gap. The county began pursuing negotiations last year with the Bengals, to which it owes nearly $9 million next year.

According to an Oct. 16 outlining the Bengals offer, the team agreed to:

• Pay for $2 million in capital repairs to the stadium such as replacing carpeting and contributing money toward field replacement. Normally, the county would pay for those things.

• Relieve the county of lease payments - totaling $30 million - starting in 2017.

• Allow the county to reduce the number of county-paid staffers working in stadium operations while the team continues funding current staff, saving $5 million

The Bengals would want in return:

• Starting in 2017, the annual lease would become a "team option." According to the section of the lease referenced in the letter, that means the Bengals would have the option of extending the lease as-is for two-year increments. The commissioners took this paragraph to mean that the Bengals could decide not to extend the lease and leave town. The team told commissioners the offer does not allow the team to leave early, Pepper said.

• The county must give up its suite so the Bengals can lease it out.

• The county must give up revenue from other events at the stadium such as the Macy's Music Festival, and any revenue from naming rights.

• The county can't use the stadium fund to pay for anything other that what's being paid for today.

• The county can't levy additional taxes ticket sales or other Bengals-related items.

• The county must agree to a "constructive" relationship with the team, including avoiding future "public bickering" about the team in public meetings.

The good thing about the offer, according to commissioners, is that the Bengals have come to the table. It's the first time that's happened in nearly a decade. Pepper and Commissioner Greg Hartmann said they see the offer as a unique opportunity to work with the team.

The bad thing for the county is that the Bengals still hold all the cards. Commissioner Todd Portune, who has had an adversarial relationship with the team over the years, said the agreement will ultimately cost the county more than $40 million. He said the offer is "a good start" for more negotiations, but the team made clear that the offer stands as-is.

"We have tried to thoughtfully outline the full extent of what our organization can do, not begin a series of protracted negotiations," said Bengals Vice President Troy Blackburn in the letter to County Administrator Patrick Thompson about the offer. "So I look forward to hearing back from you whether the above provides a satisfactory direction to conclude an arrangement."

Blackburn also noted in the letter - as has county Auditor Dusty Rhodes over the years - that the economy isn't completely to blame for the stadium fund deficit. Blackburn pointed out that the county moved the location of the proposed stadium, which cost $100 million in land acquisition. It also used $72 million in sales tax dollars for the Fort Washington Way project and other riverfront development and has funneled millions from the fund to pay for The Banks riverfront development.

"I raise these points - not to deny that the county currently faces real financial issues - but to highlight that the current economic challenges relate in large measure to 'scope creep' and discretionary decisions made by Hamilton County long after our deal was crafted," Blackburn said in the letter.

After the Bengals sent the letter to the county, negotiations were put on hold while the county worked on multiple other revenue-generating plans. No additional meetings have taken place. The teams and commissioners have routinely declined to comment on negotiations and never mentioned the letter existed. The Enquirer obtained the letter through an open records request.

•

[COB]

According to an Oct. 16 outlining the Bengals offer...

Blackburn also noted in the letter - as has county Auditor Dusty Rhodes over the years - that the economy isn't completely to blame for the stadium fund deficit. Blackburn pointed out that the county moved the location of the proposed stadium, which cost $100 million in land acquisition. It also used $72 million in sales tax dollars for the Fort Washington Way project and other riverfront development and has funneled millions from the fund to pay for The Banks riverfront development.

"I raise these points - not to deny that the county currently faces real financial issues - but to highlight that the current economic challenges relate in large measure to 'scope creep' and discretionary decisions made by Hamilton County long after our deal was crafted," Blackburn said in the letter...

The teams and commissioners have routinely declined to comment on negotiations and never mentioned the letter existed...

So decisions by local officials added a hundred million bucks to the cost of the stadium, and those same officials took $75 million earmarked to pay for the stadium, and spent it on other projects?

Since the letter included such facts, no wonder local officials never even mentioned its existence to the media or their constituents. Easier to let Paul Daugherty fan the flames of hatred towards evil Mike Brown and his bumbling organization, casting them as greedy pigs who hypnotized the public and the commissioners into taking a deal they now can't pay for it.

Who's really at fault for the financial condition Hamilton finds itself in vis a vis the stadium?

[Sea Ray]

Who's really at fault for the financial condition Hamilton finds itself in vis a vis the stadium?

Without a doubt, the county is the main culprit. Even if you think the Bengals are robbing the county in the terms of that lease, it's still the county's fault for agreeing to it. Add on to that these revelations that the county squandered the money and we have an even bigger culprit.

[Ickey44]

Blackburn also noted in the letter - as has county Auditor Dusty Rhodes over the years - that the economy isn't completely to blame for the stadium fund deficit. Blackburn pointed out that the county moved the location of the proposed stadium, which cost $100 million in land acquisition. It also used $72 million in sales tax dollars for the Fort Washington Way project and other riverfront development and has funneled millions from the fund to pay for The Banks riverfront development.

So basically, the county spent an extra $172 million out of the stadium fund that they didn't need to spend, and they're trying to make the Bengals look like that bad guys? Is that about it?

[Sea Ray]

Yeah, that's about it.

There was someone from the county on the Bill Cunningham show today on WLW that said that in the end they need $30 million a year to fix their woes. You heard that right. $30 mill a year! That's well beyond the Bengals.

[HairOnFire]

Easier to let Paul Daugherty fan the flames of hatred towards evil Mike Brown and his bumbling organization, casting them as greedy pigs who hypnotized the public and the commissioners into taking a deal they now can't pay for it.

Predictably, Daugherty has already written an article that downplays the very gesture he once claimed would be enough to change Mike Brown's horrible reputation. And what unforseen event prompted the change in Daugherty's stance? Why, none other than Todd Portune's now discreditied claim the Bengals were positioning themselves to leave in 2017.

Portune and Daugherty. Garbage in, garbage out.

[HairOnFire]

There was someone from the county on the Bill Cunningham show today on WLW that said that in the end they need $30 million a year to fix their woes. You heard that right. $30 mill a year! That's well beyond the Bengals.

I wouldn't worry about it. This years local beet harvest is projected to be a bumper crop.

[Sea Ray]

Just so we can put this all in perspective, with the County needing $30mill a year to balance their books, two million or so from the Bengals isn't going to make a dent in the county's problems. It's up to the County to solve this, not Mike Brown. My bet is it'll eventually be paid by the rest of us through a sales tax increase

[HoosierCat]

The county began pursuing negotiations last year with the Bengals, to which it owes nearly $9 million next year.

According to an Oct. 16 outlining the Bengals offer, the team agreed to:

• Pay for $2 million in capital repairs to the stadium such as replacing carpeting and contributing money toward field replacement. Normally, the county would pay for those things.

• Relieve the county of lease payments - totaling $30 million - starting in 2017.

• Allow the county to reduce the number of county-paid staffers working in stadium operations while the team continues funding current staff, saving $5 million

As with player contracts, details are always helpful. So, the alleged $40 million in concessions is a slight bit of journalistic rounding and it's actually $37 million.

As with most NFL deals, it's back-loaded, with the vast majority of the money, $30 million, not kicking in for seven years. I have to think that by 2017 the economy has improved, making the stadium much less of an issue. If it hasn't, Hamilton Co. is probably screwed no matter what.

The $5 million basically amounts to the county and team shaking hands and agreeing to eliminate $5 million worth of jobs. Yeah, that'll go over well for both parties.

The $2 million looks real enough. The rest of the offer underwhelms.

But Mikey always starts with the lowball offer. I guess we'll have to see what HamCo shows up with. Given their history, I wouldn't be optimistic.

[HairOnFire]

But Mikey always starts with the lowball offer.

You do realize this isn't a player contract where Mikey has to make an offer in order to protect his own self interests, right? He was under no obligation to make ANY offer whatsoever, and if his offer isn't accepted or acted upon in any way the Bengals will happily go right on as they've been doing.

I guess we'll have to see what HamCo shows up with.

Hamilton County will do what it's always done. Specifically, they'll continue pretending they still have cards to play and leverage to throw around.

[HoosierCat]

You do realize this isn't a player contract where Mikey has to make an offer in order to protect his own self interests, right? He was under no obligation to make ANY offer whatsoever, and if his offer isn't accepted or acted upon in any way the Bengals will happily go right on as they've been doing.

Maybe, maybe not. As COB pointed out earlier, it isn't hard to envision a scenario like bankruptcy that would throw everything into question.

[Sea Ray]

Maybe, maybe not. As COB pointed out earlier, it isn't hard to envision a scenario like bankruptcy that would throw everything into question.

Oh I think it is. I can't imagine bankruptcy is an option. Before that'll happen the county will raise sales taxes and if that doesn't work they'll raise property taxes. I find it very hard to envision a scenario that includes bankruptcy.

[COB]

Oh I think it is. I can't imagine bankruptcy is an option. Before that'll happen the county will raise sales taxes and if that doesn't work they'll raise property taxes. I find it very hard to envision a scenario that includes bankruptcy.

There have been about 500 bankruptcy filings by municipalities and other governmental entities.

A pretty high wall exists to such filings. For instance, a municipality is required to engage in negotiations with its creditors to try to reach a comprimise to avoid bankruptcy. The Bengals seem to be trying to amend their agreement to help the county, though it appears the county is too stupid to understand that.

In regards to just taxing your way out of dire financial straits, the following excerpt from "Municipal Bankruptcy In Perspective", a paper by the Bureau of Governmental Research in Louisiana, addresses such a strategy,

"Other remedies, such as raising taxes or cutting services, may actually hinder the municipality’s

ability to stabilize itself. This would occur where taxes rise, or services fall, to a level that

discourages investment or results in disinvestment. Under those circumstances... bankruptcy becomes an option to consider."

Your skepticism of bankruptcy filings by governmental entities is shared by many. For instance, the paper cited above details the incredible problems facing post-Katrina parishes in Louisiana. These places had their tax bases washed out to sea, but the State of Louisiana has so far refused to allow them to file bankruptcy, feeling the negative impact of such filings is too overwhelming.

On the other end of the spectrum, Orange County, California, filed for municipal bankruptcy in 1994, probably because they had a really cloudy day or something.

Completely off-topic, but please indulge me for a moment regarding a strategy sometimese implemented by bankruptcy courts to implement municipal bankrupties. From the above-cited paper:

“Cramdown” – binding a dissenting class

Alternatively, the court may confirm a plan notwithstanding the plan’s rejection by a class if at

least one impaired class of creditors has accepted it. This process is sometimes referred to as

“cramdown.” Cramdown, in essence, forces creditors to go along with a plan that they have not

approved.

So if Hamilton County did file bankruptcy, the bankruptcy judge could implement a Cramdown on the Brown family.

/>http://www.la-par.org/Publications/PDF/Municipal%20Bankruptcy.pdf

[Sea Ray]

I think it's fair and balanced to do what the Cincinnati media hasn't done and that is to mention facts that the Bengals brought up in their letter to the county:

1) It was the county's decision to move the stadium from county owned land to expensive riverfront property to the tune of $100mill

2) The County spent another $72mill on Ft Washington Way and other banks projects

3) The County on its own "played with the numbers" to show a 3% growth as opposed to the original 2%.

4) The County has doubled its contribution to Cincinnati Public Schools

5) The County was represented by respected national law firms while agreeing to the terms of this lease

6) The lease is consistent with others including the one in Indianapolis (Lucas Field)

7) This deal has suffered from "scope creep" and discretionary decisions made by the county long after the deal was signed.

Also note that this letter was sent in mid October. The county has had plenty to time to act on it.