HoosierCat Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Some good thoughts from the Florida Times-Union's Gene Frenette. They're about Harvey but his overall point is applicable to Rivers as well.http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor...311615746.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJJackson Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 there are now numerous sad examples (Akili, Perry, Pollack) demonstrating the wisdom of those actionsI'm not following youSince each of the three examples you mentioned are for players whose performances have been, uh, forgettable to say the least, I'd assume that the Bengal would actually have SAVED money by including more incentive based money (pay for play) rather than guarenteed cash (pay for potential) in their contracts. e, they never would have earned any incentives -- unless the incentive clause read "perform miserably and/or get injured frequently"Can you re-explain this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Hair's just saying the Bengals could have spent more on guys like Pollack had more of their incentives been easier to reach.So far, the difficulty of incentives or escalators doesn't appear to be an issue in Rivers' case, tho I wouldn't be surprised if that changed. From the one comment that Marvin made about the Bengals' offer being above where it should be, as well as comments by Jags HC Jack Del Rio about Harvey's position, it seems that guaranteed coin is the holdup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Hair's just saying the Bengals could have spent more on guys like Pollack had more of their incentives been easier to reach. The Bengals aren't a team that pays bonuses based upon a player having a pulse on an agreed upon date. They've always been adamant about incentive triggers being based upon three things. Individual paying time, realistic early production standards, and an improvement in the teams offensive or defensive rankings. Of the three the Bengals will often bargain away team based incentives, using it as a bargaining chip than can be exchanged for stiffer and more realistic playing time or production based triggers. For example, when negotiating appropriate production-based incentive triggers Justin Smith's agent was said to have begun at 2 sacks, moved quickly to four, and then refused to budge until the end. He also refused to consider any incentive trigger related to team defensive rankings. Smith eventually agreed to a contract that included no team ranking related triggers, but far stiffer demands in regards to playing time and production. In fact, the bulk of his incentive package wasn't triggered until his 8th sack. In Akili's example, I've read Smith hit all of his first year playing time triggers due to Blake's injury, but hit none of his production based triggers...mostly due to the Bengals refusal to lower the trigger point below a very modest average of 160 yards passing per game, an average Akili was NEVER able to reach. Had Akili sucked at a marginally higher level it's likely he could have busted just as badly but been paid millions more. The less said about Chris Perry the better, but I think it's safe to assume he hasn't banked a single penny from any incentives based on playing time, right? As for Pollack, his holdout was said to be largely related to the Bengals refusal to agree to playing and production demands that are ridiculously easy to reach, but I've read that he played and produced enough (6 sacks) to reach most of his rookie incentive triggers. Last point. It's big money. For example, Tim Couch busted nearly as badly as Akili but somehow managed to pocket his entire incentive package...said to be more than a third of his rookie contracts total value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Bengals_Fan Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 When he did not sign by the opening of camp, he was pretty much dead to me...I knew he'd be useless, and he wasWhy pay anyone to be useless?Do you really hold the player completely responsible in these situations? I mean really, when the same team has the same problems every single year, come on. Don't blame the player for the incompetent front office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jditty47 Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 He needs to SIGN. WTF!!!! sick of holdouts. stupidest thing a rookie could do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 He needs to SIGN. WTF!!!! sick of holdouts. stupidest thing a rookie could do.Tell that to his agent. There is the real retard! This hack is looking for one quick payday when he fails to realize all the potential big paydays that await if his player is ready. Another Jerry McGuire wannabe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinc1129 Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 If he's not in camp by next week, it's time to move on and prepare for the start of the season without him. A rookie missing this much time is never a good thing and renders them pretty much useless for the start of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fattyjay Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I would say at this point he can no longer be penciled in to start week 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Tell that to his agent. There is the real retard! This hack is looking for one quick payday when he fails to realize all the potential big paydays that await if his player is ready. Another Jerry McGuire wannabe. OTOH this could be Rivers' only NFL contract. He could bust (Akili, Ratliff). He could suffer a career-ending injury (Pollack, Warrick, maybe Irons). And he's looking at the possibility of leaving not thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, but millions, on the table.I'm really not all that concerned. The deal will get done eventually and the lack of practice time shouldn't impact him nearly as much as it did, say, Pollack since he's playing the same spot he was in college. Remember Justin? He held out all the way up to the start of the regular season and all it ended up costing him was missing one game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
membengal Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Yup. he'll get here when he gets here. At any rate, sounds like Brandon Johnson is having a nice little week at Rivers' spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Bengals_Fan Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 From the latest missive on PFT, it doesn't sound like the $50 or $100k that we thought was the sticking point - PFT's making it sound like Dunn is just dragging his heels. If that's the case, then screw Rivers for sure. Keep your damn agent on a leash, not the other way round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spor_tees Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 I would say the longer the guy holds out the less likely he will play very many snaps this year, start taking away money from the first year and replace it with even more incentive money...if they do something like that then he would sign his contract a lot faster for sure. Or screw it and let his dumb a$$ sit out the entire year and get even less money next year from another team in the draft. I can't stand hold outs like this. It just these guys aren't committed to being winners, they are committed to being fat cats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARVIN=W'S Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Whos are the starting LB's in week one without Rivers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Whos are the starting LB's in week one without Rivers? Dhani Jones, Rashad Jeanty, and the rookie who loses the battle for #3 WR. My money is on Jerome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAPPYJAQ Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 Who would've ever dreamed that Rivers would be one of the last 2 picks to sign? I hope that Zimmer puts him on the bottom of the depth chart when he finally does. He probably won't be a huge contributor this year, sadly. The good news is that it's given Brandon Johnson a chance, who has been dynamite by all accounts this camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chandon Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I would say the longer the guy holds out the less likely he will play very many snaps this year, start taking away money from the first year and replace it with even more incentive money...if they do something like that then he would sign his contract a lot faster for sure. Or screw it and let his dumb a$$ sit out the entire year and get even less money next year from another team in the draft. I can't stand hold outs like this. It just these guys aren't committed to being winners, they are committed to being fat cats.I agree..I'm fed up with stupid behaviour like this. Who is being paid by who in all this? Is the Agent hired and paid by the player or what? The Bengals FO need to get hold of Rivers directly and ask him point blank what his interests are - money or football? If all he wants is to fanny around for an extra bob or two and extract the last cent he can get, then in my mind he has little interest in being part of a football TEAM and can go forth and multiply!! If, on the other hand, he would like to get his Golden Opportunity ( playing for the NFL ) started then he needs to tell his Agent to STFU and do the damn deal! They need to tell Rivers that unless the deal is done by Wednesday, then whatever is finally agreed won't make a damn bit of difference as he will sit out most of the season! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJJackson Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Guarenteed money should be dropped by at least 250k a day til he signs, if he ever does.Each passing day, he grows more worthless to the team, so why pay him the full rate? He is officially dead to me at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walzav29 Posted August 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 What I don't understand is that he'll sign before week 1. Why can't they just act like it's a day before camp now? No sense of urgency on either side. Year in and year out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Bengals_Fan Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Guarenteed money should be dropped by at least 250k a day til he signs, if he ever does.Each passing day, he grows more worthless to the team, so why pay him the full rate? He is officially dead to me at this point.So this is *not* just a contract negotiation issue, this is his agent playing hardball to advertise his services His agent actually wants Rivers to be the last player to sign. Knowing that I'm switching sides. Screw him. Toss him back in the draft, and let his agent learn his lesson by seeing his client poor this year, lose a year of NFL service and the millions of dollars that go with it that he'll never see back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShulaSteakhouse Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Another year, another Bengals' hold out, another wasted 1st round pick in the Marvin Lewis era. Why don't they just trade their first rounder every year if they can't get these guys in on time here? The Bengals' are the ONLY team in the league having problems signing their 1st round pick this year basically. Just stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Another year, another Bengals' hold out, another wasted 1st round pick in the Marvin Lewis era. Why don't they just trade their first rounder every year if they can't get these guys in on time here? The Bengals' are the ONLY team in the league having problems signing their 1st round pick this year basically. Just stupid.Jaguars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Another year, another Bengals' hold out, another wasted 1st round pick in the Marvin Lewis era. Why don't they just trade their first rounder every year if they can't get these guys in on time here? The Bengals' are the ONLY team in the league having problems signing their 1st round pick this year basically. Just stupid.Jaguars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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