Bengals Franchise Tag

[duus]

Yes, agreed. I believe part of what the Bengals are doing is trying to force an agreement. He wants big money, we want to pay what he is truly worth. If he wants the signing bonus and long-term deal, he has to be realistic. Surely he wants to avoid going into this season one bad injury away from never making another dime from football. A long-term deal at his true value could come out of this. Then again we could be pissing him off so badly, ala Fanaca, that he'll play another year and go anywhere but here. And that comparison is the only one you'll ever hear me make between Alan Faneca and Justin Smith.

Exactly ... look no further than the Steelers and what has occurred with Faneca and Porter. Porter was let go because he was due a fat new contract at the age of 30 (he turned 30 last March). No go ... wasn't going to happen. A year ago, they knew Faneca was going to turn 31 late last year and would be due a fat new contract as well. They simply were not going to give him a new contract ... even at the age of 30 and still playing at a high level. They decided to not extend him and let him play through his last year ... even if he wasn't happy about it. Exceptions? Yes, they surely exist ... they resigned Ward at the age of 30. But he is surely the exception in Pittsburgh ... a crowd favorite ... and he wines hard as well, so what were they to do?

[kingwilly]

Our choice is to acquiess to his demands for a huge long term contract or we tag him and grossly overpay for one more year.

Yes, agreed. I believe part of what the Bengals are doing is trying to force an agreement. He wants big money, we want to pay what he is truly worth. If he wants the signing bonus and long-term deal, he has to be realistic. Surely he wants to avoid going into this season one bad injury away from never making another dime from football. A long-term deal at his true value could come out of this. Then again we could be pissing him off so badly, ala Fanaca, that he'll play another year and go anywhere but here. And that comparison is the only one you'll ever hear me make between Alan Faneca and Justin Smith.

uh, I think you've left off Option 3, which is to let him walk.

He is not worth the FT. He is not and there is nothing to comvince me that he is, since saying he is means he is as good/delvers equal value at a Top 5 DE, which he most certainly is not.

He is not worth a long-term deal. WHy do this? So we can tie up crazy jack in a signing bonus for a team that need every available penny to pay for actual improvement? Not smart.

The option I see that really works is to let him walk. It may not feel good at first but this player has run his course.

...or maybe we can move him to LB? Still, that would require money.

[bengalsfansince68]

uh, I think you've left off Option 3, which is to let him walk.

Uh, I'm pretty sure that I stated that letting him walk was the only viable option to me.

[HoosierCat]

Yes, agreed. I believe part of what the Bengals are doing is trying to force an agreement. He wants big money, we want to pay what he is truly worth. If he wants the signing bonus and long-term deal, he has to be realistic. Surely he wants to avoid going into this season one bad injury away from never making another dime from football.

Considering he's already made a lot of dimes off football -- $26 million worth, more or less -- I doubt he'll be scared about having to walk away due to injury after a final $10 million paycheck (franchise tenders are guaranteed). Clearly the Bengals would like a long-term deal, but they have little leverage here.

(As an aside, when you actually look at the money involved over the whole of Smith's time in Cincy, it doesn't look as bad. $36 million for 8 years is what, $4 million & change a year? I wouldn't object to paying Justin $4 million a year.)

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I'm completely sick of watching Justin Smith "rush from the outside" every play, then chase after the RB and dive on him 3-10 yards downfield every play. Yeah he's fast enough to make tackles from the weak side of the defense, but when does he ever make plays? When? What does he do to earn his salary?

Why is he worth even $4mm a year? He's not. Possibly the most overrated Bengal of all-time.

I mean I think I could get 2 sacks and 3 passes defensed for an entire season, if I played every down at DE, and didn't miss a game.

A DE's value is not how many tackles he makes!! It's the big plays he makes and how often/quickly he gets to the ball, and controls his space. Hell half the time I swear teams just wait for Smith to rush deep around the QB, and the RB just cuts back to where he was and gets at least 5 yards every time.

Freakin worthless. Fanene and Rucker would be more productive, and whomever they draft or sign.

Hell gimme a Trent Cole type that's cheap and you can control over Mr. Budweiser.

Ugh, enough already of this guy. The defense has sucked every year he's been here, he hasn't made a bit of difference, making tackles LB's should be making.

[COB]

I'm completely sick of watching Justin Smith "rush from the outside" every play, then chase after the RB

The patented Justin move. A close second is

A. Justin beats the tackle or gets a free run at the qb

B. Justin waves arms wildly as he flies past the qb at full speed, having fallen for a head fake, a step up, or any other move a qb might make.

His size, strength, and determination are admirable. But his lack of athleticism makes it difficult for him to take advantage of the opportunities he gets with that size and strength. He can't adjust on the fly.

If we let him walk I suggest his agent get him to St. Louis so he can take full advantage of the commercial opportunities his tattoo will provide.

[SteelerFan87]

I heard Dick LeBeau would like to see Smith in black and gold. I wouldn't mind that. He could push Keisel or replace Aaron Smith. And he should be good for a couple more years which would give us time to draft and develop a young DE.

[Pidge]

I heard Dick LeBeau would like to see Smith in black and gold. I wouldn't mind that. He could push Keisel or replace Aaron Smith. And he should be good for a couple more years which would give us time to draft and develop a young DE.

Don't be fooled that because he makes a lot of tackles that he's an effective run stopping DE. The tackles frequently occur 5 to 10 yard down the field. Which raises the obvious question - where are the LBs? Good question.

[Walrus]

I heard Dick LeBeau would like to see Smith in black and gold. I wouldn't mind that. He could push Keisel or replace Aaron Smith. And he should be good for a couple more years which would give us time to draft and develop a young DE.

Would you be willing to pay him the $X MM it will take for Smith to "push Keisel"?

[duus]

I heard Dick LeBeau would like to see Smith in black and gold. I wouldn't mind that. He could push Keisel or replace Aaron Smith. And he should be good for a couple more years which would give us time to draft and develop a young DE.

Would you be willing to pay him the $X MM it will take for Smith to "push Keisel"?

The answer is clearly NO. Such a move would be unlike any other move the Steelers have made in something like 15-20 years.

[fattyjay]

I don't he is big enough to play end in a 3-4, and has also been quoted as sying that he is not a 3-4 guy. So, i don't think a move to the Steelers is all that probable unless they switch to a 4-3. If the Bengals tag anybody this year I think it will be Madieu. I read on CBS Sportsline that the tag price of a safety is only 4-5 mil. If they do this they could focus more on resigning Stacy, and they keep a well rounded, veteran safety around for at least one more year to see what they actually have in White and Ndukwe. I think Jackson will be gone so they need some veteran insurance.

[Pidge]

I don't he is big enough to play end in a 3-4, and has also been quoted as sying that he is not a 3-4 guy. So, i don't think a move to the Steelers is all that probable unless they switch to a 4-3. If the Bengals tag anybody this year I think it will be Madieu. I read on CBS Sportsline that the tag price of a safety is only 4-5 mil. If they do this they could focus more on resigning Stacy, and they keep a well rounded, veteran safety around for at least one more year to see what they actually have in White and Ndukwe. I think Jackson will be gone so they need some veteran insurance.

I wwouldn't mind tagging Madieu. He has the talent, as witnissed by his promising rookie season. Hopefully with a different DC he'll get the right frigging coaching to get him upto that level again. I'm more sold on the Duke than Marvin right now and wouldn't be overjoyed going into the season with both starting safties having half a dozen games experience between them.

Agree about Jackson leaving. He's nothing without Lynch. Nothing.

[Kazkal]

I heard Dick LeBeau would like to see Smith in black and gold. I wouldn't mind that. He could push Keisel or replace Aaron Smith. And he should be good for a couple more years which would give us time to draft and develop a young DE.

Don't be fooled that because he makes a lot of tackles that he's an effective run stopping DE. The tackles frequently occur 5 to 10 yard down the field. Which raises the obvious question - where are the LBs? Good question.

Everyone says it's always 5-10 yards down field but when the statistics were brought up they didn't match that comment.

If I'm not mistaken it was 90% of his tackles are made 6 yards or less.

[Pidge]

I heard Dick LeBeau would like to see Smith in black and gold. I wouldn't mind that. He could push Keisel or replace Aaron Smith. And he should be good for a couple more years which would give us time to draft and develop a young DE.

Don't be fooled that because he makes a lot of tackles that he's an effective run stopping DE. The tackles frequently occur 5 to 10 yard down the field. Which raises the obvious question - where are the LBs? Good question.

Everyone says it's always 5-10 yards down field but when the statistics were brought up they didn't match that comment.

If I'm not mistaken it was 90% of his tackles are made 6 yards or less.

I stand corrected.

[sparky151]

We ought to let Justin walk and hope some other team overpays him enough to get us a 3rd round supplemental pick in 09. Getting Stacy re-signed is more important than Madieu but it might make sense to tag Madieu and have a veteran safety to go along with Nedu.

[Ox]

Hobson's Choice: Tag, who is it?

February 12, 2008

Q: You have heard a lot recently about the "franchise" tag as it relates to Justin Smith and the possibility of using it again on him or on Stacy Andrews. Wasn't there also a "transition" tag that can be used in lieu of "franchise"? Can you explain how that works and whether that is a viable option in either case?

--Tony, Cincinnati, OH

TONY: It looks like the Bengals are going to use the franchise tag, but on who by the Feb. 21 deadline? Smith, Andrews, or free safety Madieu Williams? Unless you think you can make a trade, the transition tag is virtually useless.

The transition tag is the average of the top 10 highest paid players at the free agent's position. But if an offer is made on a transition free agent that a team doesn't match, the losing team doesn't get any compensation.

The franchise tag is how teams keep guys. That's the average of the top five salaries at that player's position and the compensation is two first-rounders.

Tagging Smith again after last season's $8.6 million is the biggest cost at $8.8 million. Tough to give a guy nearly eight figures when he's never in double-digit sacks. But the $17.4 million for two years is less than he would have received in upfront money of a multi-year deal.

Andrews ($7.5M for offensive line) and Williams ($4.4M for safeties) make more sense economically with Williams a real option because they aren't loaded with veteran safeties and the tender doesn't prevent you from doing some major deals.

And they could probably work with Andrews' $7.5 million, but how can you have that sitting on the bench now when everybody is healthy?

They could always remove the tag later, but the player then automatically becomes a free agent.

Q: In reference to the CHAD-GATE portion of your recent article, am I reading correctly (and I'm not trying to call into question your work or role or your independent voice), are the Bengals now using back channels to let Snyder know that no trade is forthcoming? I still believe this can all blow over and hope Chad stays because if not, T.J. will be triple-teamed and Henry isn't half as reliable as Chad. Nice work. I'm sure you're as sick of this as the fans are.

--Don, Delaware, OH

DON: Mike Brown doesn't believe in back channels and used DirecTV back in November when he said Chad was going nowhere. Plus, Chad-Gate was written post red-eye trip and blissfully unaware of The Washington Post story reporting the Redskins' interest.

And Marvin Lewis came right out the week Chad started yapping last month and said the same thing: No trade.

And one thing Mike and Marvin have in common is, don't back either of them into a corner.

The Bengals have been quite direct. Lewis has a great relationship with Snyder from that one season in Washington, so that's not really a back channel, either.

That said, there was the sense at the Pro Bowl that Johnson is starting to realize he isn't going anywhere. The Bengals simply can't get past that $8 million salary cap hit, or the fact they've given him $16 million the past two years. That means more to them than any of Dan Snyder's draft picks.

And the Bengals truly have high regard for what Johnson does for them on the field. His ego may have been bruised by internal criticism, but his franchise-record 1,440 yards isn't taken lightly in high places.

Which sounds great on paper. But the question is if Johnson can return to this locker room after the pronouncements of the past month. Certainly guys like Lance Briggs and Alan Faneca did this past year after volatile offseasons, and the belief is that Johnson can do the same.

Agreed on losing him. How do you replace him? Yeah, there's the Tiki Barber-addition-by-subtraction argument, but this team doesn't have a Derrick Ward behind him, never mind a Brandon Jacobs. You've got T.J. and that's all. Chris Henry simply can't be counted and Tab Perry has never been healthy enough to contribute at receiver.

There is the argument that you can put anybody with any kind of talent (say a middle-of-the-road free agent) with Carson Palmer and he'll make it work. But the Bengals need to do more than just get by. They've got a gamebreaker and they know they won't get one in return in time for the 2008 playoff chase.

Yes sir, Don, it is getting tiring. But one thing about Chad: He's got a huge heart. In the end, that probably rules the day. It's why assistant strength coach Ray Oliver said after talking to him in Hawaii last week, "He's a Bengal."

http://bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=6637

[fattyjay]

Hobson's Choice: Tag, who is it?

February 12, 2008

Q: You have heard a lot recently about the "franchise" tag as it relates to Justin Smith and the possibility of using it again on him or on Stacy Andrews. Wasn't there also a "transition" tag that can be used in lieu of "franchise"? Can you explain how that works and whether that is a viable option in either case?

--Tony, Cincinnati, OH

TONY: It looks like the Bengals are going to use the franchise tag, but on who by the Feb. 21 deadline? Smith, Andrews, or free safety Madieu Williams? Unless you think you can make a trade, the transition tag is virtually useless.

The transition tag is the average of the top 10 highest paid players at the free agent's position. But if an offer is made on a transition free agent that a team doesn't match, the losing team doesn't get any compensation.

The franchise tag is how teams keep guys. That's the average of the top five salaries at that player's position and the compensation is two first-rounders.

Tagging Smith again after last season's $8.6 million is the biggest cost at $8.8 million. Tough to give a guy nearly eight figures when he's never in double-digit sacks. But the $17.4 million for two years is less than he would have received in upfront money of a multi-year deal.

Andrews ($7.5M for offensive line) and Williams ($4.4M for safeties) make more sense economically with Williams a real option because they aren't loaded with veteran safeties and the tender doesn't prevent you from doing some major deals.

And they could probably work with Andrews' $7.5 million, but how can you have that sitting on the bench now when everybody is healthy?

They could always remove the tag later, but the player then automatically becomes a free agent.

Q: In reference to the CHAD-GATE portion of your recent article, am I reading correctly (and I'm not trying to call into question your work or role or your independent voice), are the Bengals now using back channels to let Snyder know that no trade is forthcoming? I still believe this can all blow over and hope Chad stays because if not, T.J. will be triple-teamed and Henry isn't half as reliable as Chad. Nice work. I'm sure you're as sick of this as the fans are.

--Don, Delaware, OH

DON: Mike Brown doesn't believe in back channels and used DirecTV back in November when he said Chad was going nowhere. Plus, Chad-Gate was written post red-eye trip and blissfully unaware of The Washington Post story reporting the Redskins' interest.

And Marvin Lewis came right out the week Chad started yapping last month and said the same thing: No trade.

And one thing Mike and Marvin have in common is, don't back either of them into a corner.

The Bengals have been quite direct. Lewis has a great relationship with Snyder from that one season in Washington, so that's not really a back channel, either.

That said, there was the sense at the Pro Bowl that Johnson is starting to realize he isn't going anywhere. The Bengals simply can't get past that $8 million salary cap hit, or the fact they've given him $16 million the past two years. That means more to them than any of Dan Snyder's draft picks.

And the Bengals truly have high regard for what Johnson does for them on the field. His ego may have been bruised by internal criticism, but his franchise-record 1,440 yards isn't taken lightly in high places.

Which sounds great on paper. But the question is if Johnson can return to this locker room after the pronouncements of the past month. Certainly guys like Lance Briggs and Alan Faneca did this past year after volatile offseasons, and the belief is that Johnson can do the same.

Agreed on losing him. How do you replace him? Yeah, there's the Tiki Barber-addition-by-subtraction argument, but this team doesn't have a Derrick Ward behind him, never mind a Brandon Jacobs. You've got T.J. and that's all. Chris Henry simply can't be counted and Tab Perry has never been healthy enough to contribute at receiver.

There is the argument that you can put anybody with any kind of talent (say a middle-of-the-road free agent) with Carson Palmer and he'll make it work. But the Bengals need to do more than just get by. They've got a gamebreaker and they know they won't get one in return in time for the 2008 playoff chase.

Yes sir, Don, it is getting tiring. But one thing about Chad: He's got a huge heart. In the end, that probably rules the day. It's why assistant strength coach Ray Oliver said after talking to him in Hawaii last week, "He's a Bengal."

http://bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=6637

Kinda backs up my Madieu theory. I think those that are reporting the rumors of the Bengals tagging Justin again are not looking at a number of factors. The biggest being that the Bengals' most glaring need isn't finding a replacement if Smith leaves, but keeping the O-line intact (Andrews) to fix the running game. I would like to think that they learned a hard lesson last year that an O-line needs more time to gel than a D-line does. That said, I think they can get the Andrews deal done, tag Madieu and draft a decent DE to replace Smith. Granted they would have to use more guys in rotation to pick up the number of downs Smith played, but doesn't that just keep your D-line more fresh at the end of the game?