Bengals Erase 2005

[BZBot]

As I watched the Bengals lose to the Patriots on Monday night, I quickly realized the 2005 season has quickly been made irrelevant.

Source: http://www.bengalszone.com/article.php?sid=581

[GregCook]

As I watched the Bengals lose to the Patriots on Monday night, I quickly realized the 2005 season has quickly been made irrelevant.

Source: http://www.bengalszone.com/article.php?sid=581

Its not that bad! I knew they would lose too after halftime but no team has been wasted from down players like the Bengals. Three top RB's out of the game. No Linebackers. Scrubs playing wideout. On the flip side, the Bengals have drafted very good players from rnd 4 to 7, its just the top ones that are killing them with injuries, suspensions and an occassional misfire(Ratliff). If the Bengals suited Rudi, Chris Perry/Irons, Pollack, Brooks, Henry last night they would have beat NE.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

As I watched the Bengals lose to the Patriots on Monday night, I quickly realized the 2005 season has quickly been made irrelevant.

Source: http://www.bengalszone.com/article.php?sid=581

Its not that bad! I knew they would lose too after halftime but no team has been wasted from down players like the Bengals. Three top RB's out of the game. No Linebackers. Scrubs playing wideout. On the flip side, the Bengals have drafted very good players from rnd 4 to 7, its just the top ones that are killing them with injuries, suspensions and an occassional misfire(Ratliff). If the Bengals suited Rudi, Chris Perry/Irons, Pollack, Brooks, Henry last night they would have beat NE.

The only problem there is that if they had Perry they wouldn't have Irons, and if they had Pollack, they probably wouldn't have Brooks. I just don't think they would've overcome a 21 pt deficit. I'm also missing where Irons, Pollack, Brooks or even Perry have proven anything in the NFL?

And the Patriots would argue that if they had Seymour, Maroney, Harrison and their starting LG, they would've won, had they lost. Excuses are for people who are ok with losing. Let's stop making them. We've been hearing them ever since Marvin's been here.

It's one thing to lose (expected last night considering the circumstances, will give you that) it's another to just look terrible doing it and embarass yourselves on national TV, which they pretty much did.

I think a lot of people would feel better about this team had they fought until the last minute and made it a game throughout, and at least suprised some people.

What I saw was a team with no heart, confidence, motivation, pride or discipline that is poorly coached and put together.

We'll see if they can turn it around or not.

[GregCook]

As I watched the Bengals lose to the Patriots on Monday night, I quickly realized the 2005 season has quickly been made irrelevant.

Source: http://www.bengalszone.com/article.php?sid=581

Its not that bad! I knew they would lose too after halftime but no team has been wasted from down players like the Bengals. Three top RB's out of the game. No Linebackers. Scrubs playing wideout. On the flip side, the Bengals have drafted very good players from rnd 4 to 7, its just the top ones that are killing them with injuries, suspensions and an occassional misfire(Ratliff). If the Bengals suited Rudi, Chris Perry/Irons, Pollack, Brooks, Henry last night they would have beat NE.

The only problem there is that if they had Perry they wouldn't have Irons, and if they had Pollack, they probably wouldn't have Brooks. I just don't think they would've overcome a 21 pt deficit. I'm also missing where Irons, Pollack, Brooks or even Perry have proven anything in the NFL?

And the Patriots would argue that if they had Seymour, Maroney, Harrison and their starting LG, they would've won, had they lost. Excuses are for people who are ok with losing. Let's stop making them. We've been hearing them ever since Marvin's been here.

It's one thing to lose (expected last night considering the circumstances, will give you that) it's another to just look terrible doing it and embarass yourselves on national TV, which they pretty much did.

I think a lot of people would feel better about this team had they fought until the last minute and made it a game throughout, and at least suprised some people.

What I saw was a team with no heart, confidence, motivation, pride or discipline that is poorly coached and put together.

We'll see if they can turn it around or not.

Brooks was drafted to replace Odell and was on the field with Pollack last season. I said Perry/Irons meaning either of them. Take any team, including the Pats, subtract out last 3 seasons of 2 number 1 picks; 6 picks from rounds 2 & 3 and see how well they play. These injuries set in last season and they went down 3 wins. Look at 2005, few key injuries and they were 11-5.

Coaching? Big time problem as the exact same problems re-occur year after year even though the players change.

[HairOnFire]

Excuses are for people who are ok with losing. Let's stop making them. We've been hearing them ever since Marvin's been here.

I think the only reason a fan would ignore the injuries that have hit this team is if he realized they represented a perfect opportunity to indulge in the negativity that seems to define his or her experience as a fan. Far from making excuses from the moment Lewis arrived most Bengal fans were smart enough to recognize that his first three seasons as head coach produced a nearly perfect example of how a team is rebuilt. Yet during those years many of you so-called Bengal fans complained loudly every step of the way despite the teams success, second guessing every move made and especially every move that wasn't made. Perfection was demanded, facts were ignored, and at every opportunity old grudges were indulged.

Why would anyone would think you'd act any differently now?

After all, you're the type of fan who actually resents a sold-out stadium filled with cheering Bengal fans, right?

[gregstephens]

Excuses are for people who are ok with losing. Let's stop making them. We've been hearing them ever since Marvin's been here.

I think the only reason a fan would ignore the injuries that have hit this team is if he realized they represented a perfect opportunity to indulge in the negativity that seems to define his or her experience as a fan. Far from making excuses from the moment Lewis arrived most Bengal fans were smart enough to recognize that his first three seasons as head coach produced a nearly perfect example of how a team is rebuilt. Yet during those years many of you so-called Bengal fans complained loudly every step of the way despite the teams success, second guessing every move made and especially every move that wasn't made. Perfection was demanded, facts were ignored, and at every opportunity old grudges were indulged.

Why would anyone would think you'd act any differently now?

After all, you're the type of fan who actually resents a sold-out stadium filled with cheering Bengal fans, right?

Here's the problem with that comment. While it is a very valid point in regards to many johnny-come-lately fans that just found the bandwagon, it does not apply to the long-suffering fan. I've been a diehard since I was nine years old. I'm now thirty-seven. It's hard not to refocus on the negatives when, sixteen out of seventeen seasons, that's what we've had. Were it not for the Lions, we'd be one of the worst franchises in NFL history if not the worst. Virtually every other team that has the type of season we had in 2005 puts together a little continuity with two, three or four seasons of winning records. Anybody that says we are not back to where we were in 2004 is crazy. In terms of the injuries that have plagued the Bengals, sure that is true. Injuries plague every team over the course of 16 games. No one is immune. The Bengals problem in that regard is not having the depth of roster to cover it. That is a Mike Brown problem first and a Marvin Lewis problem to the extent he has input on player acquisition, if any.

[Stripes]

I just hate the "every team has injuries" angle. Yes, that's obvious enough, but every team does not face the exact same quantity of injuries or injuries to players of the exact same talent.

The Bengals have suffered more well more than the league mean with injuries. Take into consideration that the past two seasons, the offensive line (2006) and the linebacking corps (2007) have been completely decimated to the point that third stringers are leaving the field on carts. That's not normal.

[gregstephens]

I just hate the "every team has injuries" angle. Yes, that's obvious enough, but every team does not face the exact same quantity of injuries or injuries to players of the exact same talent.

The Bengals have suffered more well more than the league mean with injuries. Take into consideration that the past two seasons, the offensive line (2006) and the linebacking corps (2007) have been completely decimated to the point that third stringers are leaving the field on carts. That's not normal.

Well, geesh, the whole 'it's not fair--we have more injuries than everybody else' talk isn't going to pick up wins. The bottom line is, regardless of how you view the issue, is that the Bengals don't have the depth of players, or character of players for that matter, to win right now. Other teams have had the types of injuries the Bengals have, but they've rallied and said "We're going to win regardless", not said, "Oh woe is us" and packed it in. That is what the Bengals have done--packed it in. 2007 is gone as far as the players are concerned and we saw that last night.

[Stripes]

I just hate the "every team has injuries" angle. Yes, that's obvious enough, but every team does not face the exact same quantity of injuries or injuries to players of the exact same talent.

The Bengals have suffered more well more than the league mean with injuries. Take into consideration that the past two seasons, the offensive line (2006) and the linebacking corps (2007) have been completely decimated to the point that third stringers are leaving the field on carts. That's not normal.

Well, geesh, the whole 'it's not fair--we have more injuries than everybody else' talk isn't going to pick up wins. The bottom line is, regardless of how you view the issue, is that the Bengals don't have the depth of players, or character of players for that matter, to win right now. Other teams have had the types of injuries the Bengals have, but they've rallied and said "We're going to win regardless", not said, "Oh woe is us" and packed it in. That is what the Bengals have done--packed it in. 2007 is gone as far as the players are concerned and we saw that last night.

I never said it isn't fair -- that's certainly not an argument I care to make. It's really irrelevant, and no other teams owe the Bengals an apology. It's unfortunate what has happened thus far, but s**t happens.

I don't think the team has packed it in yet though... We all saw how frustrated they were. If they don't harness that and produce a W in Kansas City, then I'll be more inclined to agree.

[HairOnFire]

Here's the problem with that comment. While it is a very valid point in regards to many johnny-come-lately fans that just found the bandwagon, it does not apply to the long-suffering fan. I've been a diehard since I was nine years old. I'm now thirty-seven. It's hard not to refocus on the negatives when, sixteen out of seventeen seasons, that's what we've had.

Well, now that you've explained why you're acting irrationally....take it a step further and explain why the Bengals should act today based upon things that happened when you were a 9 year old?

[HairOnFire]

Other teams have had the types of injuries the Bengals have, but they've rallied and said "We're going to win regardless", not said, "Oh woe is us" and packed it in.

Bull. Name me another NFL team that has ever won football games using a LB corp as depleted as the Bengals?

[BengalByTheBay]

Other teams have had the types of injuries the Bengals have, but they've rallied and said "We're going to win regardless", not said, "Oh woe is us" and packed it in.

Bull. Name me another NFL team that has ever won football games using a LB corp as depleted as the Bengals?

Taking the injuries issue a step further, injuries have really been the team's primary issue since before the halfway point last season. Several games before the vaunted "collapse" at season's end. Since that time, as everyone is so quick to point out, the team has posted a horrible record. I would suggest that injuries are the single most responsible element for where the team is right now. While it is fairly legitimate to say that injuries are a part of the deal in the NFL, it is disingenuous to suggest that somehow other teams are having similar injury problems to the Bengals. The core of the defense has been decimated repeatedly and the cumulative quantity of injuries is simply staggering at this point. I don't recall anything like it. Closest I can think of is the Bills, who are also getting creamed currently. Our current LB situation is that Jeanty (who was himself a replacement) hasn't played yet this season, Brooks (who is far from a savior that some seem to believe, but is also better than the alternatives) has played just over 1 game, Miller (hoy, vey, who would think he would be missed) didn't play last night, Marshall (who probably still needs directions to the locker room) is now gone for the season, Henderson is gone for the year, and Landon (who has been the "iron man" of the season) keeps starting and keeps getting dinged and missing time. That makes 5 LB's off the top of my head who have missed all, most, or will miss the rest of the season from the LB position group alone. I just don't think you can point to a team that has gamely said "we're going to win regardless" with that type of situation this early in the year. It's a good thing to preach to the team, but it belies reality.

[membengal]

How can it be erased? I still have my Odell Thurman jersey as proof that it happened.

[HoosierCat]

I just don't think you can point to a team that has gamely said "we're going to win regardless" with that type of situation this early in the year. It's a good thing to preach to the team, but it belies reality.

I think there have been plenty of teams with that attitude. They may not actually win, but as I read Greg's post, that's not the point. The point is, do they come together as a team and fight to win -- going down swinging more often than not, but swinging nonetheless? Or do they implode, turn on each other, cast blame, have sideline and locker room shouting matches, lose discipline, etc.?

The Bengals seem to do a lot of the latter and very little of the former.

[Stripes]

The Bengals seem to do a lot of the latter and very little of the former.

I'd estimate the vast majority of NFL teams whom have endured similar circumstances reacted in the same fashion. The Bengals expect(ed) a lot from themselves this season, so early struggles will certainly frustrate them. In-game antics mean much less than how the team will compose itself during the bye week and going into Kansas City, IMO.

[BengalByTheBay]

I just don't think you can point to a team that has gamely said "we're going to win regardless" with that type of situation this early in the year. It's a good thing to preach to the team, but it belies reality.

I think there have been plenty of teams with that attitude. They may not actually win, but as I read Greg's post, that's not the point. The point is, do they come together as a team and fight to win -- going down swinging more often than not, but swinging nonetheless? Or do they implode, turn on each other, cast blame, have sideline and locker room shouting matches, lose discipline, etc.?

The Bengals seem to do a lot of the latter and very little of the former.

I would agree that one of the biggest concerns with this team is how they handle adversity and how damn fragile they can be. I have this odd sense that all of the "attitude" comes from the offense and none from the defense...which seems backward. As for "going down swinging" 2 of the 3 losses were close enough to turn on a single score. If locker room shouting were a problem in football, I'd be surprised. I would think in happens in one locker room after just about every game of the season. Last point -- IMO if they don't ACTUALLY win, who the hell cares? I mean, wouldn't we be having this same level of concern if there had been no CJ/Palmer confrontation or reports of locker room yelling? Isn't the loss the point, not the "ol' college try." Hell, this is the NFL, I don't see anybody having any tolerance for the "at least they tried" or "moral victory" stuff.

[HoosierCat]

Last point -- IMO if they don't ACTUALLY win, who the hell cares? I mean, wouldn't we be having this same level of concern if there had been no CJ/Palmer confrontation or reports of locker room yelling? Isn't the loss the point, not the "ol' college try." Hell, this is the NFL, I don't see anybody having any tolerance for the "at least they tried" or "moral victory" stuff.

Nobody does. But, if you pull together as a team, there's at least some chance you'll win. If you turn on each other, forget it, you've thrown away any chance you had.

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

[gregstephens]

Here's the problem with that comment. While it is a very valid point in regards to many johnny-come-lately fans that just found the bandwagon, it does not apply to the long-suffering fan. I've been a diehard since I was nine years old. I'm now thirty-seven. It's hard not to refocus on the negatives when, sixteen out of seventeen seasons, that's what we've had.

Well, now that you've explained why you're acting irrationally....take it a step further and explain why the Bengals should act today based upon things that happened when you were a 9 year old?

I'm not saying they should act any way based on something that happened when I was a nine year old. I'm saying the organization should act in a way that changes how things have consistently been, save one aberrant season, since 1990. Anybody notice that for seventeen years the Bengals have the same issues and problems regardless of who the players are or who the coaches are? No one has a rational explanation for that.

[HairOnFire]

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

Agreed. That said, when you think of unprofessional behavior being demonstrated by Bengal players....who do you think of?

I mean after you've gotten past Chad and Levi?

[gregstephens]

Last point -- IMO if they don't ACTUALLY win, who the hell cares? I mean, wouldn't we be having this same level of concern if there had been no CJ/Palmer confrontation or reports of locker room yelling? Isn't the loss the point, not the "ol' college try." Hell, this is the NFL, I don't see anybody having any tolerance for the "at least they tried" or "moral victory" stuff.

Nobody does. But, if you pull together as a team, there's at least some chance you'll win. If you turn on each other, forget it, you've thrown away any chance you had.

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

Amen brother.

[gregstephens]

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

Agreed. That said, when you think of unprofessional behavior being demonstrated by Bengal players....who do you think of?

I mean after you've gotten past Chad and Levi?

Agreed also. And, for all the debating about on-field versus off-field issues, the antics of Thurman and Henry have hurt this team in practical ways as well as morale. Not to mention Nicholson, Rucker, etc. It's hard for the straight guys to feel the commraderie with those drawing the negative press. That's why we can't play like the Patriots as a true unit.

[BengalByTheBay]

Last point -- IMO if they don't ACTUALLY win, who the hell cares? I mean, wouldn't we be having this same level of concern if there had been no CJ/Palmer confrontation or reports of locker room yelling? Isn't the loss the point, not the "ol' college try." Hell, this is the NFL, I don't see anybody having any tolerance for the "at least they tried" or "moral victory" stuff.

Nobody does. But, if you pull together as a team, there's at least some chance you'll win. If you turn on each other, forget it, you've thrown away any chance you had.

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

Amen brother.

I'm having trouble following your thought process when you say the above, immediately after having said the below:

"Well, geesh, the whole 'it's not fair--we have more injuries than everybody else' talk isn't going to pick up wins. The bottom line is, regardless of how you view the issue, is that the Bengals don't have the depth of players, or character of players for that matter, to win right now. "

I guess my question is -- which is it? "Win right now", or just be professionals and act like you care?

[gregstephens]

Last point -- IMO if they don't ACTUALLY win, who the hell cares? I mean, wouldn't we be having this same level of concern if there had been no CJ/Palmer confrontation or reports of locker room yelling? Isn't the loss the point, not the "ol' college try." Hell, this is the NFL, I don't see anybody having any tolerance for the "at least they tried" or "moral victory" stuff.

Nobody does. But, if you pull together as a team, there's at least some chance you'll win. If you turn on each other, forget it, you've thrown away any chance you had.

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

Amen brother.

I'm having trouble following your thought process when you say the above, immediately after having said the below:

"Well, geesh, the whole 'it's not fair--we have more injuries than everybody else' talk isn't going to pick up wins. The bottom line is, regardless of how you view the issue, is that the Bengals don't have the depth of players, or character of players for that matter, to win right now. "

I guess my question is -- which is it? "Win right now", or just be professionals and act like you care?

First, when you say 'win right now', are you chanting the age-old Bengals mantra that 'we're building for the future, even if we don't win right now'? If you are, that ship sailed in 1995, 1999, 2001, etc. Second, you treat the two as mutually exclusive. You have to have the second to have the first. In other words, if you don't get to the level of being professional and acting like you care, the wins will not come. I'd feel a lot better about last night if the team fought hard and looked like a good team going through hard times with injuries because then I could say, "I think we'll win when the injuries are healed." Heal all the injuries you want, but the team on the field last night is a long way from being winners. That being said, make no mistake, I will always bleed black and orange, even when venting my frustrations with the team.

[BengalByTheBay]

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

Agreed. That said, when you think of unprofessional behavior being demonstrated by Bengal players....who do you think of?

I mean after you've gotten past Chad and Levi?

Agreed also. And, for all the debating about on-field versus off-field issues, the antics of Thurman and Henry have hurt this team in practical ways as well as morale. Not to mention Nicholson, Rucker, etc. It's hard for the straight guys to feel the commraderie with those drawing the negative press. That's why we can't play like the Patriots as a true unit.

This is pretty much recycled from last year and IMO overblown. Yes, Henry is suspended -- not too much room for disagreement that this hurts the team. I readily concede that point. Thurman, by all rights, should be off of suspension and available. Goodell's decision not to re-instate continues to appear to be without any basis. Nonetheless, I tend to believe that Odell was made an example of by the team and there's very little chance that he would play for the Bengals again anyway. If he was back, available and in-shape, it would be interesting to see what Marvin would do. But either way, you lose that argument. Because if he's back and ready to play and has kept himself out of trouble, he's no longer a bad guy, right? If he has, as I suspect, been ruled out of the Bengals' plans, then Marvin has "cleaned house."

As for Nicholson & Rucker, these continued references to them are laughable. It has been two years since Rucker has done anything that could even possibly be considered as illustrating "bad character." So, exactly why does everyone have a hard-on for constantly using him as an example of any problem. He wasn't even suspended. I'm not saying he's a good guy -- he may be a p***k for all I know. But he has never been arrested or anything else for two years. As for Nicholson, he appears to be another example of exactly what you're calling for. He got in trouble and got cut. He hasn't been a Bengal this season. He played a few ST snaps last year. He was what, a 5th round pick? Is this the player that has hurt team morale? I didn't realize that marginal players, who almost never saw the field had that much influence on a team.

[BengalByTheBay]

First, when you say 'win right now', are you chanting the age-old Bengals mantra that 'we're building for the future, even if we don't win right now'?

I was quoting you. I'm pointing the hypocricy of saying there are no "moral victories" when the Bengals lose a close game and then saying that a loss is okay as long as they play "like professionals."

A win is a win and loss is a loss to me. What about last night's game made you think the team wasn't playing like professionals? Chad's blow up? A flaccid offense? Or was it the simple fact that Marvin Lewis yelled at the team in the locker room. You may have a valid point in there, but you're mixing up so many things that I can't find it.

Again, you were the one that said "win right now" and then said losing is okay as long as they play like professionals. I find those hard to reconcile.