Is There Anyone Out there That Now Doubts

[Dadraftnick]

When we drafted drafted some of the players with character concerns I recall painting a picture just like this (the thing with Odel) right down to the corrupting of the rookie(McNeal).

The only thing that hasn't happened yet (as far as we know) is the undermining of the coach,as long as they're winning thats not going to be a that much of a problem.

I am not trying to say I told you so.

What I do want to say is, THIS,the thing with Odel, is the reason that character matters.

Odel could be the best LB in the NFL but,if he cant play,because he's suspended ,he does you no good.

He will not be making any tackles,interceptions,sacks,or assists from the recliner or crack den or wherever the hell he is.

Odel getting suspended does more than just cost him a couple of bucks or make him get the H3 insted of the full size Hummer.

Aside from the bad publicity,playing without you star MLB ,being forced to use next years 3rd round draft pick,ect.,this affects the psyche of the entire team,and not in a good way.

At this point,we dont know if he will ever wear stripes again or if he will be the same player if he comes back,remember Ricky Williams(Give an addict a bunch of money,who knows what you get back).

Remember Odel came in way out of shape and that was just the off season,what will he be like in a year or two years?

As good as Odel is we would have been better off using the draft choice on someone that can be counted on .

CHARACTER MATTERS!!!

[Stripes]

Anyone that says it plain doesn't matter is ignorant.

Is it terribly overrated? Certainly.

Do fans seem to pay too much attention to the media's take on the issue? Even more certainly.

Frankly I don't even CARE if we could have taken a better player at the time in the draft. Taking risks is how you find talent, and it won't always work perfectly. I say keep on doing it.

[walshfan]

Hey AJ and Ahmad have been good as gold! Ya cant judge them all by a couple indiscretions ....

[membengal]

What matters more? Chris Henry's character or his 6'5" height and 4.4. speed? Because, as long he gets on the field, I don't give a s**t about his character, as it turns out. In Odell's case, his character has kept him from the field, so it's more of an issue.

But, and let's be perfectly clear about this, I want the Bengals to continue to take chances on freakish talent, because you need freakish talent to win Super Bowls.

[bengalboomer7]

To steal a line from your thread title "Is there anyone out there that now doubts we have enough threads on this issue"

[Kirkendall]

What matters more? Chris Henry's character or his 6'5" height and 4.4. speed? Because, as long he gets on the field, I don't give a s**t about his character, as it turns out. In Odell's case, his character has kept him from the field, so it's more of an issue.

But, and let's be perfectly clear about this, I want the Bengals to continue to take chances on freakish talent, because you need freakish talent to win Super Bowls.

100% agree! Well said man...

[BengalszoneBilly]

But, and let's be perfectly clear about this, I want the Bengals to continue to take chances on freakish talent, because you need freakish talent to win Super Bowls.

I'm glad someone else sees the reality of the NFL. Baltimore took chances. Many character issues with several players. All they got from taking such risks was a crappy Lombardi Trophy. The point is, you're not going to win it all and stay on top with a bunch of goody two shoes choir boys who graduated with honors from Harvard or Yale.

If you want your team to play like a beast, you just might want to put a few real beasts on the team. Sure...they're prone to running into problems with the law, but I'll take that any day in comparison to those "stinkin' on the field, but law abiding off of it" teams we had prior to the arrival of coach Lewis! You can't have it both ways, so deal with it you bunch of mama's boys!

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Yes but let's not take every single freakish talent with character issues there is - Marvin went overboard and a very high 2nd round pick is not playing this year solely because of it, and at this rate may never be the player he was or could've been.

[Tasher]

Character definitely matters, but I will add this:

This is a VERY young team and it has gotten VERY successful VERY quickly. Say what you want about college success and what not, but it is not the same as success at this level in the NFL. It is hard to deal with and the Bengals are not a roster that is heavily laden with a ton of veterans that have had success at this level. So it is going to take some adjustment and growing. Just look at the first 5-6 games of last year to the last 5 or so games of last year, the playoffs, to this year. HUGE differences in how the players (on the roster) are handling it. Now we are moving into a different phase and it will change again.

Marvin will get them ready.

[Dadraftnick]

You can take a chance on a guy that slides (is drafted lower than he should be) to 5 to 6 th rounds but you cant get one year out of a player that you wasted a 2nd pick on rond on such as Thurman)

No matter what your size and speed is you cant help your team by being fast,strong,tall or anything else when you are suspended.

Henry is likely suspended for drinking so he is not a very good example,while crime spree has what it takes to be a very good football player, he is lacking in what it takes to be a good citizen.

You are going to loose a certain amount of players to injury anyway(such as Pollack) you are going to be wrong about the talent in an amount of players(Akili Smith) so you better treasure your picks and use them wisely and take guys that can help you for the long haul that can be counted on.

You dont have to have the fastest,tallest ,or anything else you just have to have guys that can do their job.

Even of you could figure a way to get the first 53 players in the draft ,to get one year out of them is not going to do you much good.

[Stripes]

You can take a chance on a guy that slides (is drafted lower than he should be) to 5 to 6 th rounds but you cant get one year out of a player that you wasted a 2nd pick on rond on such as Thurman)

No matter what your size and speed is you cant help your team by being fast,strong,tall or anything else when you are suspended.

Henry is likely suspended for drinking so he is not a very good example,while crime spree has what it takes to be a very good football player, he is lacking in what it takes to be a good citizen.

You are going to loose a certain amount of players to injury anyway(such as Pollack) you are going to be wrong about the talent in an amount of players(Akili Smith) so you better treasure your picks and use them wisely and take guys that can help you for the long haul that can be counted on.

You dont have to have the fastest,tallest ,or anything else you just have to have guys that can do their job.

Even of you could figure a way to get the first 53 players in the draft ,to get one year out of them is not going to do you much good.

Drafting with a conservative attitude like that is what causes mediocrity. I don't want to settle for guys that "can just do their job." I want the best athletes on the field I can get, and that is going to involve risk sometimes. Marvin has taken risks all over the draft board since he was hired, and what good has come from it?

It's all in the paper.

2002 = 2-14

2003 = 8-8

2004 = 8-8

2005 = 11-5

2006 = 3-0 and movin' on up

[membengal]

Odell slid out of the first to the second, so taking him there made a ton of sense, given his freakish talent.

He was a stud last year, and helped the Bengals break through to 11 wins, the division title, and a playoff berth.

Even if he never plays another down for this team because he is an addict, he was more than worth it. Period.

I hope he turns his life around someday, because that is what I wish for any person. But, really, he was useful, but ML has moved on, because ML is calculating and cold-blooded. But I don't regret for a second the chance they took on him, as the payoff was sweet. And it bridged them to this year, and perhaps even bigger and better things, even without him.

I just don't see the downside in the risk, or why they wouldn't do it again if a talent like that fell to them.

Hey, was Randy Moss an arse in MN all those years? You bet. Did they win with him? You bet. Was it worth it, putting up with his shenanigans for the Vikes? You bet. For as long as they could. He was available to the Vikes way lower than he should have gone, and they benefited by taking him.

It is the way you get ahead in the NFL. You take calculated risks to get monstrous freakish talent on your team. You lay in contingency plans. You coach. And you hope. It's pretty straightforward. But I don't want them shying away from bargains, even with character questions, not if they can help this team, even for a short time. For all of the bitching from the national media and others, in the end, Wins and Losses are all that matters. And, properly deployed, freakish talent gets you more of the former.

I am glad ML chooses that path, for what it is worth...

[Kazkal]

Character risks seem to have better durabilty too.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Character risks seem to have better durabilty too.

Whoa...good point Kaz! Not once has Chris "Minimal Carries" Perry ever been acused of having "Character Issues." Now health issues is a book in it's own right!

[ArmyBengal]

I'm so f*cking sick of this conversation, it makes me want to --->

Nothing like a little hiccup to bring all the doubting Thomas' to light again...

What was it they were being called ?? Oh yeah, Chicken Littles... We probably won't win another game either...

WHODEY !!!

[Kirkendall]

OK, I'm going to disagree slightly -- but I'm now stepping on a soap box and not talking directly to you (memphis).

While I know his words were harsh, I don't believe Lewis is cutting ties with him. And (I'm generalizing here) I'll bet no one feels worse about this than Thurman. He's again, at the bottom of his rope and feeling the tug. He seemed, and I think still, very contrite in his Page Two, "As told by" article.

But I think in the cold-blooded tone Marvin kinda gave at the Press Conference wasn't an indication of his plans for Thurman or signifying a cutting of the rope. And I honestly believe Marvin is very disappointed.

OK, now imagine if your Thurman lying on your couch, bitching up a storm because you knew you screw up. He's thinking of his family now. Imagine he gets wind of Lewis' press conference. He'd say, "oh man, I really effed up here" and he feels at any given moment, he'll be cut perhaps from the greatest team he'll ever play for. And he has no idea if another team will risk picking him up with the baggage (uh-hum, Raiders). Now he's really thinking family.

While he's under contract, he has the opportunity and the obligation to himself and his family to earn his keep -- and be that much more down the line. Forget the team for a moment. Will he do what's asked of him to succeed personally?

To me, that's the interesting question in this "character" debate. Once he answers THAT question, then, I believe, we'll learn the meaning of character with Thurman.

(lights dim, JK steps off soap box, curtains close, crowd boos and throws apples and bananas on stage)

[membengal]

Ahmad Brooks and AJ Nicholson joined this team due in no small part to the fact that ML couldn't rely on Odell Thurman. That's the bottom line. ML left himself options, which I am glad as hell that he keeps an eye on.

Again, I hope he pulls himself out of the personal hell he has put himself in, but to all those who insist on thinking that Odell Thurman's dance with his demons affects what this team is getting done? Lunacy.

There is one player, ONE player, that affects what this team gets done. One. That would be be Carson Palmer.

[HoosierCat]

"Character risk" kind of gets thrown around as a catch-all category, and I think it ought to be noted that there are more than one kind of character risks.

There are character risks like Randy Moss. Keyshawn Johnson. Carl Pickens. And, to a much lesser extent, Chad. These are guys for whom the issue is, how shall I put it, a certain excess of self-esteem? A certain abundant appreciation of one's own worth? In other words...divas. They can be pains, they can become distractions, they can even end up "talking their way off the team." But two things they generally aren't are self-destructive or criminal. Their problems are all about football and their place in it. These guys are, I think, worth the risk.

Then there are the "criminal" character risks. These are guys who come out with rap sheets that include things like accusations of theft, sexual assualt, etc. Guys like Nicholson and Rucker. I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, but prudence dictates that if you are thinking of taking one of these guys, you need to do your homework very, very throughly. And the Bengals do not seems to do that. And if you aren't willing to do that, you shouldn't take those risks.

Then there are the self-destructive guys. The Odell's and the Henry's and the Ricky Williams's. I have a problem taking these guys because they very rarely work out long-term. And we are seeing why right now. I do believe that people can change, and I can't fault Mike and marvin for thinking they can make a difference...but it's hard to spend day 1 picks on guys who have such a chance of letting you down.

[BengalszoneBilly]

"Character risk" kind of gets thrown around as a catch-all category, and I think it ought to be noted that there are more than one kind of character risks.

Point taken. Terrell Owen has a category all to himself! Never a problem with the law, but NEVER the type of player I'd want on my team!

[HairOnFire]

Then there are the "criminal" character risks. These are guys who come out with rap sheets that include things like accusations of theft, sexual assualt, etc. Guys like Nicholson and Rucker. I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, but prudence dictates that if you are thinking of taking one of these guys, you need to do your homework very, very throughly. And the Bengals do not seems to do that. And if you aren't willing to do that, you shouldn't take those risks.

Then there are the self-destructive guys. The Odell's and the Henry's and the Ricky Williams's. I have a problem taking these guys because they very rarely work out long-term. And we are seeing why right now. I do believe that people can change, and I can't fault Mike and marvin for thinking they can make a difference...but it's hard to spend day 1 picks on guys who have such a chance of letting you down.

Who says the Bengals didn't do their howework with Nicholson and Rucker? i'm entirely confident that when Nicholson's situation plays out the predicted dire results will be proven imaginary. Rucker's situation seems comparable.

As for the self-destructive types, we've seen weekly examples of why Thurman and Henry were drafted, as well near weekly reminders of why they were considered risks. They're boom-or-bust types, yet it's hard for me to feel to bad for us Bengal fans so soon after Henry played such a major role in an important win against the Steelers.

I'll feel bad on some later date when the sky really does fall. But right now the Bengals are 3-0 and I'm trying to decide what food to serve for my Super Bowl party.

[Kazkal]

marvin could have did it too to stfu media up sense we know how much he hates them

[agreen_112]

You can take a chance on a guy that slides (is drafted lower than he should be) to 5 to 6 th rounds but you cant get one year out of a player that you wasted a 2nd pick on rond on such as Thurman)

No matter what your size and speed is you cant help your team by being fast,strong,tall or anything else when you are suspended.

Henry is likely suspended for drinking so he is not a very good example,while crime spree has what it takes to be a very good football player, he is lacking in what it takes to be a good citizen.

You are going to loose a certain amount of players to injury anyway(such as Pollack) you are going to be wrong about the talent in an amount of players(Akili Smith) so you better treasure your picks and use them wisely and take guys that can help you for the long haul that can be counted on.

You dont have to have the fastest,tallest ,or anything else you just have to have guys that can do their job.

Even of you could figure a way to get the first 53 players in the draft ,to get one year out of them is not going to do you much good.

Drafting with a conservative attitude like that is what causes mediocrity. I don't want to settle for guys that "can just do their job." I want the best athletes on the field I can get, and that is going to involve risk sometimes. Marvin has taken risks all over the draft board since he was hired, and what good has come from it?

It's all in the paper.

2002 = 2-14

2003 = 8-8

2004 = 8-8

2005 = 11-5

2006 = 3-0 and movin' on up

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! You said it brother, look at those #'s people. SHUT UP and let the man (ML) do his job!!

Character don't mean s**t when your drafting the Beast's that Marv's bringin in!!!