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ArmyBengal

O-line Watch 2022

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So let's talk through this season and what you would like to see heading into 2022.

Here is what's on the roster at this point per the official site (don't blame me):

Center-  Trey Hill and Trey Hopkins
Guard-  Quinton Spain, Hakeem Adeniji, Jackson Carmen and D'Ante Smith
Tackle-  Jonah Williams, Riley Reiff, Isaiah Prince and Fred Johnson

They also have Gaillard (Center), Su'a-Filo and Sutherland (Guards) on the practice squad.
Spain and Reiff are unrestricted free agents and Fred Johnson is a restricted free agent.
SIDE NOTE TO CONSIDER: Jonah Williams has a club option and Trey Hopkins is an UFA come the 2023 season.

The starting lineup for the Super Bowl looked like this:
Williams (LT), Spain (LG), Hopkins (C), Adeniji (RG), Prince (RT)

1. Who do you want to stay on the roster?
2. Who would you like to see targeted in free agency?
3. Who would you like to see targeted in the draft?
Bonus Question: Who do you place the blame on for Burrow taking 70 sacks total (regular and post-season) 3rd all-time?

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I’m keeping Hopkins and Williams if only to have something to work with. They’re both serviceable. Beyond that, it’s all up for grabs. Basically it’s a big pile of backups, noobs and camp fodder-quality players. I do know this: they aren’t going to fix it without being aggressive in FA. We need proven vet talent on the line and we need it yesterday.

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I think maybe thinking about the bonus question is a good place to start.
I honestly don't know enough about the scheme or the way that Pollack goes about doing business as a coach.
Anyone have insight on anything about Pollack as a coach ??  Could it be his style doesn't fit the players ??

I think Williams is a lock to stay at LT, but there was talk of him moving to the right side if another LT was brought in pre 2021 draft.
I wouldn't have great issue with Spain coming back short term and Carmen is a lock due to him being a 2nd round rookie.
Anyone else could/should be replaced in my opinion.

It's going to take a little time to look deeper into the free agents, as initially, I wasn't terribly impressed.
However, not being impressed doesn't mean those players aren't better than what we currently have.

The draft should bring more options and opportunity to improve early on.

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I really have no clue.   It comes down to how much you trust Pollack to develop the young 4 guys?    I really don't see them tossing those 4 away and dumping huge FA dollars into a guard. 

Draft is looking like a solid starting C prospect could be there late 1st.  Not sure about tackle.  

So my guess is they target FA tackle.  Develop some combination of the young 4 into a pair of starting guards (really don't know how that works out)  there is stuff to like and stuff to be fearful from group of 4 (Hill, Adeniji, Carman, and Smith).    Draft a Center. 

Bonus question:  Burrow needs to be more accountable for his health.   He's a brilliant QB but cutting down on the hits and sacks he takes has to be a point of focus beyond the OL.    That's not to absolve the OL from any blame he simply takes too many of them.  

I think you got to look at run blocking too.   When teams rush 4 and play coverage you must be able to run against that.  I think this plays into "holding" the ball as well.

 

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A harsh reality to this topic:    Many fans and media with throw out "get an offensive line".   OK.     Billy Price and Jordan two bottom tier OL found their way on to a roster and into starting jobs.

Heck even Hart started a game this year.     This basically shows there isn't a whole lot of top tier OL talent floating around.   

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My concern is that for all the success in evaluating the rest of the roster, the Bengals FO can't evaluate oline for shit.

Look at all the draft picks, Billy Price, Jackson Carmen, Cedric Ogbuehi, Jake Fisher all first or second round selections....(I know it's early for Jackson) just doesn't bode well.

Spain, Reiff out.  My thoughts are bring in good young relatively cheap guys like Connor Williams, Will Hernandez, Morgan Moses with a ton of talent,  multiple guys for one Brandon Scheriff contract, add a first round pick and see where you are after the dust settles.

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I recall many thinking the Bengals did well in "making the effort" to address the o-line with the signing of Reiff and drafting of Carmen.
I am one of those that felt good with those moves for the most part.

I just want to see that effort with a heightened sense or urgency.  The money we are looking at having right now won't be there in a couple of years.
Once Burrow and Chase are up for new deals, the money is going to shrink quickly.  Want to keep the rest of the group together ??  Even tougher.

It's one of the reasons I wanted the Super Bowl so bad.  There is a window of opportunity and it can close quickly.
If there's no one out there they love, find one they do and swing a trade.  Just get after fixing what EVERYONE knows is their weakness.
It's hard getting back to the Super Bowl, but even harder when Burrow is dead.

The fact they were 3rd ALL TIME in giving up sacks this season it's crazy to think about.

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They also signed Spain last year as a FA. Reiff getting hurt was a huge problem because Reiff was good enough to help the young RGs and when he went down Prince had his hands full just trying not to get overwhelmed himself. Reiff's injury was a real blow. 

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The only starter I for sure want back somewhere on the line is Jonah. The other four could theoretically be upgraded. Realistically, I bet Spain could be brought back. I think they need new players at C, RG and RT - two in FA and one at pick 31 in the draft.  Carman, Adeniji, Smith, Prince plus a replacement for Hopkins for back-up C would be a fine second unit. 

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Yes Mem, agree...  Some of these guys are depth players. 
They don't have to be cut, but they shouldn't be spending significant time as a starter.

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ORT, gimme a top quality FA and (I repeat AND) either pick 31 or pick 61

ORG, same. 

OC is the spot I am least concerned about of the three, but if we can get a top quality OC in FA, we could move Hopkins to ORG, and that'd be enough of an improvement at ORG (for me, at least) to forgo getting the ORG FA

I am less sold on Spain as a starter.  Love the guy, yes, but what I am reading fro stats is that his play regressed as the season wore on.  I'd love for him to be the first OG off the bench.  His versatility is one of his best qualities

Carman is a big x factor.  Can he morph into our full time starting ORG or ORT in 2022?  Only Pollack knows.  Confidence or lack thereof in Carman should partially dictate our draft and FA strategy.

All that said, can the team really have success in 2022 with 3 or 4 new starters to work into a 5 man team.  Optimally, no more than 2 new starters in a year, but yeah, it can be legitimately be claimed that we have issues at 4 spots, or stretching it a bit, all 5 spots

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Any one have more thoughts on Pollack ??

I know it was a move that looked upon favorably by most. Mixon loves him as well. However, I am interested in how accountability for those 70 sacks falls. Is it him, the players or maybe a little of both ??  Play calling by Zac come into play ??

Gimme accountability !!

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Pollack? My answer is....takes time.    They turned over half the room last year.   The offensive mentality changed and provided a greater number of chunk plays.     Caught McNally of the 80s line guru on the radio and he had praise for Pollack. 

They also went from 4 wins to damn near winning a super bowl.   Every team has an area that has to be coached around. 

 

 

 

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my impression is that he doesnt have much talent to work with.  Even Jonah seems kinda average to me, tho I admit I am far from an expert on this

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I am one of the ones that was happy with the hire, but I’m curious how they account for what happened this season ?? Not just the Super Bowl, but all season long.

Yes this line was part of the team that got to the Super Bowl, but I think that was in spite of everything and not due to their amazing play. Again, 70 sacks don’t fall out of the sky.

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14 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

I am one of the ones that was happy with the hire, but I’m curious how they account for what happened this season ?? Not just the Super Bowl, but all season long.

Yes this line was part of the team that got to the Super Bowl, but I think that was in spite of everything and not due to their amazing play. Again, 70 sacks don’t fall out of the sky.

Pass block win rate was decent at times during the season.   Sunk in late season and post season.      I have seen break downs of some pressure/sacks.    Its really is tough to tell on who to blame.

Ball could be out.   If protection was a little longer a positive play could have happened.   So not sure.    The final sack of the Superbowl is a prime example.  In short:

1. It was combo route on the top.  Success with it earlier.  CB played it well.

2. Flat came open but the CB slow playing it caused Burrow to hesitate.  Ball could have been out (not should have)

3. Donald wins his match up.

4. Chase was in the process of beating his man

boom sack.      Burrow takes a little risk at first probably has a 1st down throw.  Lineman get a half second longer Burrow probably has a throw to Chase for a huge play.  

It was similar vs. strip sack vs Chargers and final play vs. 49ers.   I think the answer is Burrow is going to cause more sacks but at the same time win more times with fantastic plays.

 

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Yup. Burrow’s style of play is going to lead to more sacks. That said, his protection can be upgraded. I really don’t have any problems with Pollack. They need better players.

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I don't have issue with Pollack and not suggesting anyone should.  Just curious what people are thinking or what they know that I may not.

I also don't want to simply place "blame", but rather ensure there is accountability for what occurred and more importantly, how to improve.
Everything is a learning process.  Either learn how to get it right, or learn how to find the players that will.
I think they will find the players.  

Hard and AWESOME to think that we are right back in the mix of the coming season with free agency in less than a month.
This has been so great !!!

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Will MB allow spending to get close to cap ceiling to keep players he should AND get some help here, and draft depth? :flushed:

2022 OL FAs

1. Terron Armstead, T, New Orleans Saints

2. Ryan Jensen, C, Tampa Bay Buccaneers

3. Orlando Brown Jr., T, Kansas City Chiefs

4. Brandon Scherff, G, Washington Football Team

5. Laken Tomlinson, G, San Francisco 49ers

6. Duane Brown, T, Seattle Seahawks

7. Connor Williams, Dallas Cowboys

8. Ben Jones, C, Tennessee Titans

9. Jason Peters, T, Chicago Bears

10. Trent Brown, T, New England Patriots

Going back every year to and including 2013, here are the OL draftees starting in 2013;

Fragel
Hawkinson
Bodine
Fisher
Ogbuehi
Westerman
Dielman
Taylor
Price
Jordan
Hill
Carman
Adenji
Williams

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I look at that list of draftees and the first thing I think it, screw picking a player, is there a team that will trade us a good lineman for the 31st pick?

(The answer is almost certainly no but a guy can dream...)

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16 minutes ago, ArmyBengal said:

I don't have issue with Pollack and not suggesting anyone should.  Just curious what people are thinking or what they know that I may not.

I also don't want to simply place "blame", but rather ensure there is accountability for what occurred and more importantly, how to improve.
Everything is a learning process.  Either learn how to get it right, or learn how to find the players that will.
I think they will find the players.  

Hard and AWESOME to think that we are right back in the mix of the coming season with free agency in less than a month.
This has been so great !!!

I think you start at RT.    Then it appears the draft could provide you a starting Center prospect and that has to be measured against all position groups.

I think they will roll with in house players at guard.   

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2 minutes ago, HoosierCat said:

I look at that list of draftees and the first thing I think it, screw picking a player, is there a team that will trade us a good lineman for the 31st pick?

(The answer is almost certainly no but a guy can dream...)

Possible, maybe a trade down or something.    Glenn was a turd but they did work a draft trade for him with Buffalo.   People loved that move at the time and maybe it works out differently without coaching changes.

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I think a trade simply takes more looking into than just suggesting one player over another.

For example... 
How many years does said player have left on their current contract?
Are they willing to do an extension as a part of the trade?
What is their cap hit?
Is their current team in cap hell?
What will we have to give up in trade?

I'm totally spit balling here, but had a buddy of mine suggest the Bengals should trade for Laremy Tunsil.
He has 2 years left on his contract at something like 17-18 per year.  An extension could probably be made for Tunsil who is 27.
The Texans are middle of the league with cap space and are not contending in 2022 and maybe not 2023 barring something big.
Would you give up #31 or a combination of #63 and another pick or swap of draft slots ??

I'm not suggesting this is something we should or shouldn't pursue, but rather food for thought.

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1 hour ago, AMPHAR said:

I think you start at RT.    Then it appears the draft could provide you a starting Center prospect and that has to be measured against all position groups.

I think they will roll with in house players at guard.   

God no!  RG is the biggest hole on the oline

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2 minutes ago, Wraith said:

God no!  RG is the biggest hole on the oline

Exactly. Maybe keep Spain but they need to overhaul the RG position.

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