ArmyBengal Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Could it be that maybe they simply thought at that point in the game they wanted to take a chance ??Lets not pretend 50+ yard FG are automatic here either.Had he decided to kick the FG and Nugent missed, there would have been an equal contingent calling him stupid for not doing something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volcom69 Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 It's time the bengals earn there playoff spots. It seems the years the bengals made the playoffs they got in by losing in December, not playing there best football. It's time they get in with the hot hand. It's time they put there foot down and stop letting the good teams push them around! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 I think they would be in a tough spot going to war with two RB's active. PLus Peerman is key on ST. Gotta think they bring Herron up or sign a FA. I think Pressely can see a carry or two but I guess I'm not fully sold on Leonard seeing a partial load of carries. I know he catches the ball well but how can he handle 10-15 carries? Hope he proves me wrong.Leonard was getting that many carries a game early on with the Rams, and he finished 4th in Rutgers history in rushing yards, so I think he can take some carries. He's had some ball security issues, though. I don't see them bringing Herron up unless they shut Peerman down for the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spor_tees Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Could it be that maybe they simply thought at that point in the game they wanted to take a chance ??Lets not pretend 50+ yard FG are automatic here either.Had he decided to kick the FG and Nugent missed, there would have been an equal contingent calling him stupid for not doing something else.I'm not saying 50 yarders are give me's. This has happened on several occasions where Marvin won't let Nugent give it a try. Nugent has only tried one 50+ yard FG all year. In contrast, one of the leagues biggest legs, Janikowski, has tried 4 50+ yard FGs, that;s a difference of 9 points. That can be game changers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cHaD711Johnson Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Could it be that maybe they simply thought at that point in the game they wanted to take a chance ??Lets not pretend 50+ yard FG are automatic here either.Had he decided to kick the FG and Nugent missed, there would have been an equal contingent calling him stupid for not doing something else.I'm not saying 50 yarders are give me's. This has happened on several occasions where Marvin won't let Nugent give it a try. Nugent has only tried one 50+ yard FG all year. In contrast, one of the leagues biggest legs, Janikowski, has tried 4 50+ yard FGs, that;s a difference of 9 points. That can be game changers.Well, Janikowski is arguably the best kicker in the league and one of the best kickers of all time. Not a fair comparison. His leg is ridculously strong and 50 yarders are routine for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spor_tees Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Could it be that maybe they simply thought at that point in the game they wanted to take a chance ??Lets not pretend 50+ yard FG are automatic here either.Had he decided to kick the FG and Nugent missed, there would have been an equal contingent calling him stupid for not doing something else.I'm not saying 50 yarders are give me's. This has happened on several occasions where Marvin won't let Nugent give it a try. Nugent has only tried one 50+ yard FG all year. In contrast, one of the leagues biggest legs, Janikowski, has tried 4 50+ yard FGs, that;s a difference of 9 points. That can be game changers.Well, Janikowski is arguably the best kicker in the league and one of the best kickers of all time. Not a fair comparison. His leg is ridculously strong and 50 yarders are routine for him.That's the point. Why do the Bengals continue to keep a kicker that they don't have confidence in to kick a 50 yard FG? They are leaving points on the field by doing that. People haven't even dipped into this point. A kicker with a strong leg can be a game changer. People grilled Gruden for reaching so high to get Janikowski, but he is a weapon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmyBengal Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Again, is it that they truly don't have the confidence in him or they were looking to do something else at a particular point in the game ??Also again, they are only points left on the field if the player can make the kick, which we've determined that 50 yarders aren't gimmes.I don't get the argument in the grand scheme of game outcome.Some of the best kickers in the league capable of kicking 50 yarders and have made them this season play for sh*tty teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spor_tees Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Again, is it that they truly don't have the confidence in him or they were looking to do something else at a particular point in the game ??Also again, they are only points left on the field if the player can make the kick, which we've determined that 50 yarders aren't gimmes.I don't get the argument in the grand scheme of game outcome.Some of the best kickers in the league capable of kicking 50 yarders and have made them this season play for sh*tty teams.Come on man...really? If the Patriots didn't have Vinetari do you think they won some of those playoff games and a Super Bowl?If you can't see over the course of this season, how many 50 yard field goals Marvin has skipped, then your just not paying attention. It happens A LOT, not just this week. It was the same way with Graham when he was here. 50 yard field goals aren't gimmies, but there is a lot better odds behind trying to get those three points if you let the kicker try, instead of not letting him even try it. What's the odds of getting a first down on 4th and 9, verses letting Nugent try a 51 yarder? Seriously, if you can't see that Marvin's decision was lack in confidence in Nugent...I don't know what will. I'd like to have someone call into a talk show or a live event and ask WTF is up with Marvin's attitude against Nugent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cHaD711Johnson Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 We were aggressive and went down and got a TD. I don't think that it's an indictment on Nugent as much is it is our coaching staff being aggressive and trying to get a big win. No p***y footing on the road, and doing what's necessary to go out there and get the win. I feel like you're approaching it from the wrong viewpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmyBengal Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Again, is it that they truly don't have the confidence in him or they were looking to do something else at a particular point in the game ??Also again, they are only points left on the field if the player can make the kick, which we've determined that 50 yarders aren't gimmes.I don't get the argument in the grand scheme of game outcome.Some of the best kickers in the league capable of kicking 50 yarders and have made them this season play for sh*tty teams.Come on man...really? If the Patriots didn't have Vinetari do you think they won some of those playoff games and a Super Bowl?If you can't see over the course of this season, how many 50 yard field goals Marvin has skipped, then your just not paying attention. It happens A LOT, not just this week. It was the same way with Graham when he was here. 50 yard field goals aren't gimmies, but there is a lot better odds behind trying to get those three points if you let the kicker try, instead of not letting him even try it. What's the odds of getting a first down on 4th and 9, verses letting Nugent try a 51 yarder? Seriously, if you can't see that Marvin's decision was lack in confidence in Nugent...I don't know what will. I'd like to have someone call into a talk show or a live event and ask WTF is up with Marvin's attitude against Nugent.Must be something you know that we don't.I disagree wholeheartedly with the thought that leaving the difference of 9 points on the field from a situation already deemed not to be a given is going to have a dramatic effect on the season regardless of how Marvin views Nugent. Again, what do you say to the fact that most of the best kickers in the league right now at converting 50+ yard FG's play for some of the sh*ttiest teams ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Could it be that maybe they simply thought at that point in the game they wanted to take a chance ??Lets not pretend 50+ yard FG are automatic here either.Had he decided to kick the FG and Nugent missed, there would have been an equal contingent calling him stupid for not doing something else.I'm not saying 50 yarders are give me's. This has happened on several occasions where Marvin won't let Nugent give it a try. Nugent has only tried one 50+ yard FG all year. In contrast, one of the leagues biggest legs, Janikowski, has tried 4 50+ yard FGs, that;s a difference of 9 points. That can be game changers.Well, Janikowski is arguably the best kicker in the league and one of the best kickers of all time. Not a fair comparison. His leg is ridculously strong and 50 yarders are routine for him.That's the point. Why do the Bengals continue to keep a kicker that they don't have confidence in to kick a 50 yard FG? They are leaving points on the field by doing that. People haven't even dipped into this point. A kicker with a strong leg can be a game changer. People grilled Gruden for reaching so high to get Janikowski, but he is a weapon.So do you want a 1st round kicker? I think we have more pressing needs plus ill take nuge over shan'omatic anyday of the week.I think Marvin going on it 4thf and 9 has nothing to do with Nuge hes just been going for alot risky high reward plays this year and its paying off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 How about all them fake punts this year? No faith in his team? Isnt our 4th dow conversion rate quite abit higher then our 3rd? To me seems Marvin has faith in his team to make the playsLooked it up bengals are 11still out of 14 on 4th down where they are 38%on 3rd down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spor_tees Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Ok, take off your rose colored glasses and tell me which is the smarter move:A, Let your kicker try a 52 yard FGB. Go for it on 4th and 9 from the 35 yard lineIf you are a true football fan and have watched football most of your life, you know what the right answer is. I'm not saying spend a first round pick on a kicker, I'm saying get a kicker that has a strong enough leg that you trust him trying 50 yard field goals. Marvin doesn't trust Nugent, and Mike Brown is a big Nugent fan. He's from The Ohio State...he was also a high draft pick as far as kickers go, he was drafted in the third or fourth round. The last kicker I can even remember the Bengals drafting was Travis Dourche (or however you spell it) in the fourth or fifth round, he won the kicker of the year as a punter and field goal kicker for Purdue. He didn't last in the league very long. I'm just saying there might be a change after this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
membengal Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Nugent hit a 55-yarder against the Raiders. So I am guessing it was something else that prompted the decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmyBengal Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Ok, take off your rose colored glasses and tell me which is the smarter move:It has nothing to do with rose colored glasses.A, Let your kicker try a 52 yard FGB. Go for it on 4th and 9 from the 35 yard lineWhat is the game time situation ?? Has the coaching staff seen something on tape that makes them think they could exploit something ?? How much time is on the clock and in which quarter ?? Are we winning or losing ?? If the question were let your kicker try a 52 yard FG or punt, I would go with the FG attempt everytime without a second thought and think punting would show a lack of faith in the kicker. Going for it could be a variety of things we typically don't have privy to.Marvin doesn't trust Nugent, and Mike Brown is a big Nugent fan. He's from The Ohio State. I'm just saying there might be a change after this year.Again, you must know something no one else does.I'm not giving you sh*t about it, only saying that outside of you knowing something we don't, there's no basis for your argument. AGAIN, the top 5 kickers in the league at kicking 50+ yard FG's play for:St. Louis, Tampa Bay, Cleveland, Minnesota, and Oakland. The best record among the group is 6-6.Outside of that most have only made 2 more 50 yarders than Nugent. That's a difference of 6 points IF MADE.None of this would support your argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 This year, teams are converting 4th downs about 52% of the time and making 50+ yard FGs about 61% of the time, so it isn't as if there's a huge success gap between the two options. Going for it is riskier, but not by all that much. Perhaps more to the point in this specific situation is that San Diego is among the worst in the league at coming up with stops on 3rd down. So the odds aren't appreciably worse in the abstract and you are up against a team that, when pushed, has show to be prone to breaking. No problem with the call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earendil Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Here's the other thing, IMO. If you go for it on 4th and 9 and throw an incomplete pass, the other team takes over at the line of scrimmage. If you go for the kick and miss it, they take over at the spot of the kick. So by trying to kick the field goal, you are potentially giving up 8 yards of field position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 As a corollary, one of the things that NFL stats types have been harping on for years is that teams should go for it a lot more often on 4th down. Number-crunching suggests that overall they will score slightly more points, but most coaches are too afraid for their jobs to be anything but ultraconservative play callers on 4th down. I remember saying years ago that if there is any coach in the league who ought to be going for it on 4th down routinely it should be Marvin, because we all know that results on the field are strictly secondary considerations to keeping your HC job in Cincy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earendil Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Marvin should treat every game like a game of Madden. How many of us ever actually punt on 4th down? Not me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingwilly Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Here's the other thing, IMO. If you go for it on 4th and 9 and throw an incomplete pass, the other team takes over at the line of scrimmage. If you go for the kick and miss it, they take over at the spot of the kick. So by trying to kick the field goal, you are potentially giving up 8 yards of field position.Further, if you throw deep on 4th and 9, and the Def INT's, then that is almost as good a a punt!GO FOR IT!!!!I fully support this high risk-high reward approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spor_tees Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Haha this is freaking hilarious. First Hoosier gives a stat that is primarily 4th and short, where the situation is fourth and 9, then others think the extra 7 yards a team gets from a missed FG is that much of a difference, and then another poster thinks an INT would help the team. First Hoosier, show me the fourth down conversion rate for 4th and 9, and not a stat that includes numerous fourth and 1 or less.Second Erandil, is that 7 yards REALLY going to make a difference compared to putting points on the scoreboard?Lastly, Willy do you really want Dalton to throw an INT? If you want to give the other team bad field position, let the guys that do that, handle the job by letting Huber punt. There is no guarantee that an INT won't be returned for positive yards or even a TD. On short punts there is very few returns and none if Huber kicks it into the end zone or out of bounds.So....I'm waiting on that stat of conversion rate on 4th and 9. I'm guessing 25%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spor_tees Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I found a pretty cool 4th down calculator. I'm not really sure how it works but after putting in the stats, it says the right move is to kick the FG, not go for it.4th Down Calculator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmyBengal Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I'm waiting on that stat of conversion rate on 4th and 9. I'm guessing 25%.I'm waiting for what you think about the best at kicking 50+ yard FG's playing for teams that are not in contention for the playoffs or just down right suck. That particular point really doesn't support what you are arguing about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spor_tees Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I'm waiting on that stat of conversion rate on 4th and 9. I'm guessing 25%.I'm waiting for what you think about the best at kicking 50+ yard FG's playing for teams that are not in contention for the playoffs or just down right suck. That particular point really doesn't support what you are arguing about.I told you what I thought, it's just happen stance. I showed you Veniteri who was the difference of the Patriots sitting at home or winning the Super Bowl. I mean since you didn't want to look at the stats I'll show you. Matt Bryant plays for the Falcons, he's 4-4 on 50+ yard FGs.The Vikings are at 6-6 and their kicker Blair Walsh is 5-5 from 50+ yards.Tampa Bay is 6-6 and in the playoff run in their division, and Connor Barth is 6-9 from 50+.Justin Tucker plays for the Ravens and he is 4-4 from 50+.Matt Prater for Denver is 3-4 from 50+.Hell Mason Crosby plays in Green Bay, and despite being 1-7 from 50+ yards, the team still trots him out there. There is a reason for that, it's because its the right decision. Marvin either needs to get a kicker with a stronger leg, or let Nugent kick them. Back in the day Lee Johnson tried long FGs instead of letting Breech kick, but at least Wyche tried it, instead of taking a huge risk on fourth down.What more do you want to hear, all these guys on this list play for teams at .500 or better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmyBengal Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Beyond ridiculous.You claim it makes a difference and yet the teams that do it the best suck.That's all the top 5 kickers at hitting 50+ yarders. Suck.You win again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.