Chuck and his Defense - merged threads

[volcom69]

So as much as i hate Chuck and the way he runs his lame non aggresive defense at what point do we blame the players just as much as him. When i look at this defense play i see so many guys playing out of position not in the right gaps, players getting run over (Brooks last night), corners always playing off the wide reciever and when they do challenge the reciever the get beat in the worst way. Now like i said as much as i hate chuck some of it is not his fault and we should blame the players just as much, cause Def. cordinators have not worked here in along time i cant remember when the Def was really that good. Now with that said i would like to see guys like Henderson, Hartwell, Mike Myers, players like this get more playing time with the first group to see what they can do to. So like i said im not a fan of Chucky either, but at some point i dont think the players are playing to there ability either.

[ArmyBengal]

So you don't like Chuck huh ?? Well join the club !!! There are also position coaches to look at in regards to "who shares the blame", but I'm not a fan of the way the defense is ran either. I'm by no means an NFL defensive coordinator, but does anyone have to be to realize finishing in the bottom 3 in defense for more than a couple years is NOT a good thing ?? It's just horribly frustrating !!!

WHODEY !!!

[Kazkal]

Nothing new which is the problem with chuck,I wouldn't mind giving coyle a shot at DC or hayes or hunley just someone new >_<

[bnglsboi8532]

What's wrong with our defense besides soft Chuck and the excuse that were just running a bunch of "VANILLA" packages, btw why were we running "VANILLA" stuff and the Saints weren't, and if that's their "VANILLA" package of plays then....anywho, what's wrong with our defense to me is we have no identity on D! Everyone knows when were blitzing its rediculous how Chuck has kept his job, the only way we ever stop someone is by getting a turnover and that's great but your obviously not gonna get a turnover everytime! I just want to switch to a 3-4 and don't tell me we don't have the personel b/c #1 we can run a 3-4 with the players we have now with justin, domata, thornton as our line and landon, hartwell, brooks, and jeanty or geathers, as our stand up linebackers! And #2 does anybody remember a couple years ago when Bill Parcells first started coaching the Cowboys, they(Cowboys) were running and had the personel for a 4-3 and by the drafting of DWare and others plus free agent signees they now, only like 3-4 years later, they have one of the best defenses(3-4) in the league! In Marvin We Trust, but he needs to grow a pair and not totally take over the D but do what made you so great in this league, and build a defense its been long enough!

[Kazkal]

My biggest problem is how much we play zone with our corners,I understand why we had to with tory and ratliff but with O'neal,Jjoe & Hall as our top 3 corners we should be able play alot more man.

[generaldreedle]

I have been reading this board or awhile now, and I decided to to join in the fun.

My concern for the Bengals this year is their defense once again. Bresnahan does not seem to have what it takes to turn this defense into something special. It always seems that the players either miss tackles or are not in the right gap. I am wondering if the Bresnaham experiment should be halted, and Marvin take over the defensive play calling. What does everybody think?

[cincy9275]

there are some players on this defense that should not be here yes ,but when a player runs around on the field looking lost out of position. that is coaching thses guys don't have quality coaching on defense. we all have seen less talented players around the leauge playing better than what they are because of good coaching.

[Stripes]

Welcome aboard, general.

I don't think the Bengals really have any option but to stick with Bres. Marvin's workload would be unfathomable if he were to call plays on defense while trying to act as the team's head coach simultaneously. So many key players have been hurt/suspended/whatever, that I can live with Bres getting the benefit of the doubt. If Marvin didn't have faith in his schemes, he'd have fired him by now.

BTW, I'll merge this with the other Chuck thread.

[HoosierCat]

Welcome aboard, general.

As to Bresh...shrug. Yeah, his schemes seem pretty vanilla even during the regular season, but OTOH he hasn't had a lot to work with. The DT position has been ignored forever, and between injuries and suspensions the back seven have been in a constant state of flux. I remember Marvin taking over from Frazier for a game and the D still blew, so I doubt there would be much difference if he took over for Bresh.

[rwalling]

Here's my conspiracy theory on the preseason D:

1) the September schedule (RatBirds, SeaRatBirds, and PatRats) is loaded with experienced coaches and QBs who know what to do with tape

2) the front 7 personnel have enough changes (FatSam and BSimms gone, Brooks in the middle) that this D will be somewhat different from last year's (PLEASE!)

3) Marvin has hinted at letting the dogs out more this year, particularly the DEs and OLBs.

Don't show the Sept. opponents any tape of what to prepare for???

[GapControl]

What's wrong with our defense besides soft Chuck and the excuse that were just running a bunch of "VANILLA" packages, btw why were we running "VANILLA" stuff and the Saints weren't, and if that's their "VANILLA" package of plays then....anywho, what's wrong with our defense to me is we have no identity on D! Everyone knows when were blitzing its rediculous how Chuck has kept his job, the only way we ever stop someone is by getting a turnover and that's great but your obviously not gonna get a turnover everytime! I just want to switch to a 3-4 and don't tell me we don't have the personel b/c #1 we can run a 3-4 with the players we have now with justin, domata, thornton as our line and landon, hartwell, brooks, and jeanty or geathers, as our stand up linebackers! And #2 does anybody remember a couple years ago when Bill Parcells first started coaching the Cowboys, they(Cowboys) were running and had the personel for a 4-3 and by the drafting of DWare and others plus free agent signees they now, only like 3-4 years later, they have one of the best defenses(3-4) in the league! In Marvin We Trust, but he needs to grow a pair and not totally take over the D but do what made you so great in this league, and build a defense its been long enough!

In short, you are insane. We barely have personnel for a 4-3 much less a 3-4. Geathers can`t play 3-4 LB all game. Smith can`t even get to the QB in a 4-3. Thornton on the line in a 3-4? I laugh alone in my room. As far as I know, Hartwell and Jeanty have never played a true 3-4 based scheme, nor have the other guys, except thornton as a backup in Tennessee. (maybe)

Like the 3-4 is going to help us. the problem is with no real pressure in the front 7 and poor tackling all around. this poor tackling is primarlily the fault of undersized LBs which we fixed.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Welcome aboard, general.

As to Bresh...shrug. Yeah, his schemes seem pretty vanilla even during the regular season, but OTOH he hasn't had a lot to work with. The DT position has been ignored forever, and between injuries and suspensions the back seven have been in a constant state of flux. I remember Marvin taking over from Frazier for a game and the D still blew, so I doubt there would be much difference if he took over for Bresh.

Yeah, the DT thing is driving me nuts. Our DTs sucked horribly in Marvin's first year, and our major 'upgrades' since then are Peko and a 1-year trial of Fat Sam. Oddly enough, we still can't stop the run.

[GapControl]

Welcome aboard, general.

As to Bresh...shrug. Yeah, his schemes seem pretty vanilla even during the regular season, but OTOH he hasn't had a lot to work with. The DT position has been ignored forever, and between injuries and suspensions the back seven have been in a constant state of flux. I remember Marvin taking over from Frazier for a game and the D still blew, so I doubt there would be much difference if he took over for Bresh.

Yeah, the DT thing is driving me nuts. Our DTs sucked horribly in Marvin's first year, and our major 'upgrades' since then are Peko and a 1-year trial of Fat Sam. Oddly enough, we still can't stop the run.

Haven`t you been paying attention?

J. Thornton is the greatest offseason upgrade ever seen in Bengaldom. Just look at the Ds rankings since he came aboard.

[skyline]

This discussion is premature.

I'm going to wait until I see what happens during the regular season before I start tossing around blame. I wasn't overly impressed by Bres. last season, but as others have pointed out, he didn't have the best talent in the league to worth with, especially considering the injuries.

The only complaint I have at this point is the lack of fire and passion I'm seeing on the defensive side of the ball. Whether or not you find it reasonable to pin that on Bres. is up for debate, I guess.

I was hoping that Hartwell, Brooks, Jackson, etc. would start to display some sort of swagger and nastiness, but it hasn't shown up yet. Here's hoping the regular season brings it out in them.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Haven`t you been paying attention?

J. Thornton is the greatest offseason upgrade ever seen in Bengaldom. Just look at the Ds rankings since he came aboard.

Cheeeee-rist. If I keep reading this thread, I'm going to start drinking well before 5.

I'll admit I couldn't watch the game - but if the Sportscenter highlights were any indication, watching #91 get blown out of the gap is going to get old this season.

[BengalByTheBay]

Haven`t you been paying attention?

J. Thornton is the greatest offseason upgrade ever seen in Bengaldom. Just look at the Ds rankings since he came aboard.

Cheeeee-rist. If I keep reading this thread, I'm going to start drinking well before 5.

I'll admit I couldn't watch the game - but if the Sportscenter highlights were any indication, watching #91 get blown out of the gap is going to get old this season.

Don't know about you, but my sarcasm meter was pegged on that one.

[buck3y3d]

My problem with Marvin is the fact that he fired Leslie Frasier (whom by all accounts had an improving defense) because of personal differences. He then brought in Chucky. You have to be kidding me with this guy. When I see third down and Artrell to go, go to New England and succeed in a dime package, I stop wondering about talent problems. There are a lot of players on this defense that could start on almost any team in the league.

We play so much zone that our safeties have tremendous cover assignments. Madieu is a good safety. He even started at corner (his first year due to injuries), but I feel like he is lost in our zone coverages. JJ and Deltha should be solid enough to play man (Deltha was the top statistical corner in the league 2 years ago). To be honest, I think Marvin likes the zone coverage, and I think thats why Chuck runs it. However, my biggest problem is with our blitzing schemes. We never have pressure on the QB (which sometimes is a result of our linebackers dropping back to zone coverage). Justin Smith is not a bad DE, his closing speed is tremendous for his position, but you have to wonder why he's rarely in the backfield. I personally believe its because our linebackers are never there to apply pressure forcing him into double teams.

[duus]

All I know is that if I hear Hines Ward (or any other Steeler coach/player) mention after one of the games this year that they 'expected' a certain defense ... well ... first I'll scream, then I'll cry, then who knows? That comment from Ward after the final game last year just made me especially angry at our defensive play-calling.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Haven`t you been paying attention?

J. Thornton is the greatest offseason upgrade ever seen in Bengaldom. Just look at the Ds rankings since he came aboard.

Cheeeee-rist. If I keep reading this thread, I'm going to start drinking well before 5.

I'll admit I couldn't watch the game - but if the Sportscenter highlights were any indication, watching #91 get blown out of the gap is going to get old this season.

Don't know about you, but my sarcasm meter was pegged on that one.

Well, obviously...but the result is still depressing enough to drink over.

And part of that was a legit question - *was* the game as bad as the highlights indicated?

[BengalszoneBilly]

Don't show the Sept. opponents any tape of what to prepare for???

God that would be sweet if that is the case, but damn, Marvin sure wears a great poker face if it is true.

[w8th]

It is going to be interesting to see how the Vikings defense does under Leslie Fazier this year. Childress was an offensive coordinator so I assume Frazier will be able to run the Vike's D the way he wants to (pretty agressive). No former "defensive guru" looking over his shoulder.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Eric Henderson breaking his wrist Saturday night doesn't help. Might be gone for the year? Haven't checked the Hobs-spin zone yet though.

How about some $$@!! good news with this team for once? Geesh.

[kingwilly]

I was just thinking about all the jabber we've heard about "Vanilla" schemes. THe offense has said it (CJ) and the Defense has described what they are running as thier basic "Vanilla" stuff, ie fundamentals.

Ok, so if that is the case, and if the "Vanilla" is installed, then they are TERRIBLE at running it. They are floundering around with the fundamentals. They are being beat, straight up, personell-wise, by the other team running their ""Vanilla".

Now, the sky is NOT falling but we have to agree that this D shows no flash or even glimpse of improvement. It has not shown, really, any one strength or clear standout area of focus.

Maybe it is a coaching thing. Perhaps Chucky is perfectly content to let Marv oversee and call the basic shots and let Chucky adjust here or there. I do not know what new scheme they are holding back, if any, but the fact that they cannot execute the Basic stuff give me the feeling we are gonna get some points hung on us all season and the D will be a constant source of pain on squabble on the board.

Personally, I'd like to see them run WAY more stunts, WAY more high risk/high reward stuff, even in pre-season...at least then they can get some confidence is it goes well and if not they can say they've been experimenting....either way, it is CLEAR what they are doing is sub-par.

[junglelove85]

I don't think the Bengals really have any option but to stick with Bres. Marvin's workload would be unfathomable if he were to call plays on defense while trying to act as the team's head coach simultaneously. So many key players have been hurt/suspended/whatever, that I can live with Bres getting the benefit of the doubt. If Marvin didn't have faith in his schemes, he'd have fired him by now.

I agree the workload would be unfathomable, but he gets paid a hell of allot money to do whatever he can to make sure we win as many games as possible. I think he should take over the playcalling if the D continues to suck this season. Billick took over offensive playcalling for those ravens midway through last year had some clear success. It won't happen but it probably would be a smart move if the defense continues to make me vomit.

[Tasher]

look at how pathetic the Colts looked last year in preseason. it means nothing. Hopefully Lewis and Co. learned something about cruising through preseason, just running combination to see who has what and to try to keep everyone fresh, get certain folks extra experience through playing time and cruise into the season with a mind to peak late and play the best ball in Nov Dec and Jan.

Remember last year? 3-0 then pfttt...

...then 0-3 to close it out with no gas in the tank?

Hm, didn't we do about the same thing the year before heading into the playoffs? Huh