Bengals look to upgrade at TE; Browns seek pass rusher

[oldschooler]

Bengals look to upgrade at TE; Browns seek pass rusher

By Chick Ludwig

Dayton Daily News

Maybe it'll be UCLA's Marcedes Lewis or Colorado's Joe Klopfenstein. It could be Southern Cal's Dominique Byrd or N.C. State's T.J. Williams.

Then again, it might be Georgia's Leonard Pope, Maryland's Vernon Davis or Notre Dame's Anthony Fasano.

Rest assured the "Magnificent Seven" are on the Cincinnati Bengals' radar because the club desperately needs a tight end. This year's NFL draft class, laden with depth and talent, should yield a future Bengals starter — if not in the first round with the 24th pick, then in the second or third.

Cincinnati's 2005 tight end trio of Reggie Kelly, Matt Schobel and Tony Stewart combined for 37 catches for 309 yards and two touchdowns. Those numbers alone tell you an upgrade is needed.

A quality receiving tight end forces defenses to close down the middle, allowing the wide receivers to get more one-on-one coverage.

Scoring a safety

Bengals defensive backs coach Kevin Boyle and sidekick Louie Cioffi were all over the Senior Bowl practices in Mobile, Ala., last week. The objects of their scrutiny were strong safeties Greg Blue (Georgia), Pat Watkins (Florida State), Roman Harper (Alabama) and Anthony Smith (Syracuse).

Smith appears to be making the biggest leap. Once thought to be a fifth-rounder, the 6-foot, 190-pounder should be a solid first-day choice because of his range, coverage and ability in run support.

Elvis sighting

The Cleveland Browns are in the market for a pass rusher with the 12th pick. If they can't get N.C. State defensive end Mario Williams, they'll look hard at Manny Lawson and Elvis Dumervil.

Lawson (6-4, 228), who was Williams' teammate with the Wolfpack, is an impressive speed rusher. His credentials include an ACC indoor long jump title. Dumervil's size (5-11, 258) is a concern, but the Louisville star is a sack machine. Both are ideally suited for outside linebacker in the Browns' 3-4 scheme.

Rumor mill

• The Atlanta Falcons are willing to part with backup QB Matt Schaub for a second-round pick. If the Bengals choose not to re-sign free agent Jon Kitna, Schaub could emerge as a candidate to bridge the gap until Carson Palmer's return from a left knee injury.

• Bengals WR coach Hue Jackson and QB coach Ken Zampese are being mentioned as offensive coordinator candidates in Detroit and New Orleans, respectively. Both are under contract with the Bengals through the 2006 season.

• The San Francisco 49ers, who need help everywhere, are interested in WR Kelley Washington and CB Tory James should the Bengals dangle them as trade bait.

[Spain]

I would love to get something out of tory and washington. I still think the draft will foldout as Gillis ,Pope, and Bernstein. All this Tory talk did catch me by suprise.

[oldschooler]

The San Francisco 49ers, who need help everywhere, are interested in WR Kelley Washington and CB Tory James should the Bengals dangle them as trade bait.

For the love of God ....DANGLE THEM !!!!!

[GROIIIDayton]

a third round pick for either of them would be great.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

If we take a TE with the first round pick I might just choke somebody.

Is it looking less likely that Greg Blue will go at the end of R2?

[Tasher]

I would do a sign and trade deal...

I just scanned the 9ers roster and there is not much there that would interest us (that the 9ers woudl also part with) so I'd do a combination of picks (at least 3) of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. The rational is that if we lose KW we get a third anyway, so the 9ers will have to sweeten the pot just a little...

[GROIIIDayton]

Tasher do you really think the 49ers are going to trade for him before they they see if the Bengals even pick up the option? The Bengals will pick up the option and then any team has a shot at him. It will not be much of a bidding war and the 49ers should get him fairly cheap with the exception of giving up the third round pick which is a high third rounder.

[ArmyBengal]

If Jackson and Zampese are under contract through 2006 and they decide to leave, what kind of compensation would the Bengals receive ?? Not huge, just curious... Oh yeah, dangle the S*IT out of Washington and James...

WHODEY !!!

[BengalszoneBilly]

Now why would the Bengals be looking to upgrade a position that they flatly don't utilize in their offensive scheme to begin with? I wouldn't mind having Pope out of Georgia though.

[membengal]

Now why would the Bengals be looking to upgrade a position that they flatly don't utilize in their offensive scheme to begin with? I wouldn't mind having Pope out of Georgia though.

Well, I am thinking with someone like Pope they might actually utilize it in their scheme.

Jeremy Stevens and Heath Miller, two more big reasons their teams are still alive in the last weekend.

[Tasher]

Tasher do you really think the 49ers are going to trade for him before they they see if the Bengals even pick up the option? The Bengals will pick up the option and then any team has a shot at him. It will not be much of a bidding war and the 49ers should get him fairly cheap with the exception of giving up the third round pick which is a high third rounder.

I think I said "sign" and "trade" which would imply that the sign part comes BEFORE the TRADE part.

Now if, as you suggest, we do the whole RFA thing, then we get a COMP pick, not the 9ers 3rd round pick. Big difference. My understanding of the thread is that we TRADE these guys, not have someone else sign them away so that we get compensation. I am guessing that we would try to get better terms under a trade, rather than a 3rd round comp pick.

yes the 9ers could get him cheaper on an option sheet, but that is the whole point of signing him first before FA begins.

[schweinhart]

Out of all the TEs listed, only Davis, Pope, and maybe Lewis are 1st rounders. Both Joe Klopfenstein and Dominique Byrd helped themselves out immensely at the Senior Bowl, but they both still should be on the board at least through the middle of the 2nd. TJ Williams should be there in the 3rd but his inconsistencies both receivng and blocking could drop him farther.

All those safeties look like 2nd or 3rd rounders. Of them, Pat Watkins is the most intriguing to me. If that guy puts on another 10 or 15 pounds, he'd be a nightmare for teams to deal with. Anthony Smith packs some serious punch in a small package and got some turns playing CB wide in the Senior Bowl to show his decent coverage skills. Blue has got the most potential if he can be taught how to change direction back in coverage much, much better than he has shown so far and Harper is a solid safety but looks to me a step slow coming up vs. the run and dropping back in coverage. Of the bunch, I'd rather see Watkins in stripes.

I can't see the Bengals getting better than a 4th rounder for K-Dub in a trade and that would have to take place about 2 weeks before the draft when the RFA deadline is over. Not many RFAs get plucked from teams -- I think there's been 2 in the past 2 years -- and both of those were undrafted so the team giving them up got no draft pick for them. A team burning a 3rd for K-Dub is highly unlikely, but remotely possible.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Count me in as a Pat Watkins fan - a guy who seems to have dropped over the last several months for whatever reason. Can't see him lasting until the end of the 2nd round, but, considering the fact you just need a compliment to Madeiu - waiting until the 2nd round pick for a SS might make sense.

I maintain the 1st pick should go to the BPA at TE, DE, DT or C/G.

[schweinhart]

Now if, as you suggest, we do the whole RFA thing, then we get a COMP pick, not the 9ers 3rd round pick. Big difference. My understanding of the thread is that we TRADE these guys, not have someone else sign them away so that we get compensation. I am guessing that we would try to get better terms under a trade, rather than a 3rd round comp pick. yes the 9ers could get him cheaper on an option sheet, but that is the whole point of signing him first before FA begins.

The Bengals could sign him to trade him in advance of the RFA period but it's highly unlikely. If the other team balks, the Bengals are stuck with a contract -- even if it's 1 year with no signing bonus -- and K-Dub is off the RFA table. But if some team is willing to go higher than the 3rd rounder the Bengals would get immediately for K-Dub -- good God -- it'd be worth the risk.

RFA compensation and compensation picks are two altogether different animals.

The RFA is straight up:

1. Minimum tender $650k range: If another team signs the player to an offer sheet that is more and the first team does not match the offer, the team losing the player gets immediate compensation of wherever that player was originally drafted. In K-Dub's case, that's a 3rd rounder. If the player wasn't drafted, the team losing the player would get nothing like the Broncos got last year when they didn't match for Kelly Herndon.

2. Middle tender of $1.4 mill range: Team losing the player gets a 1st rounder.

3. High tender of $1.9 mill range: Team losing player gets a 1st and 3rd rounder.

The other compensation picks are based on a loss-gain formula by the league to determine what helps a team make up for the difference in players lost to free agency, which is based on unrestricted free agency. The Bengals are not likely to get anything this year because all they lost to free agency -- not cuts --- was Tony Williams for the 2005 season and they gained Bryan Robinson.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Now why would the Bengals be looking to upgrade a position that they flatly don't utilize in their offensive scheme to begin with? I wouldn't mind having Pope out of Georgia though.

Reporters are looking at this just like many other teams. The quote saying the tight ends had all of 37 catches combined means we definately need an upgrade means that they, like many Bengals fans, don't realize that we have too many weapons at WR and Running Back to use our tight ends much. It means they see lack of production and say no ability. What they don't see is we may never know if Matt Buttahands Schobel could be the next Tony Gonzales/Antonio Gates because when the throw to him, he's so shocked he forgets how to catch the damned ball. You can't look at the number of catches alone. Look at the number of times they are thrown at and you will see, the job of the tight end in our offense is to stand at the line and block someone, or fake a route and turn into a blocker downfield for our wideouts/running backs.

I would love to get something out of tory and washington. I still think the draft will foldout as Gillis ,Pope, and Bernstein. All this Tory talk did catch me by suprise.

You're smoking pot again, aren't you? Tory James is one season out of a Pro Bowl berth and you want to see him traded? He is still an effective cornerback. Lack of effective safety play behind him is why he got burnt this season. Our corners are ballhawks. Our safeties are rangy to backup the ballhawking corners. Their job is to make the tackles when the corners go for the ball. IfIletyebyeme OhellIdid was a freaking joke on the field, and KK can only do so much.

[kingwilly]

Ludwig's point about our current TE's tells me that they are hoping to get more production out of a Bengal TE, not that the scheme does not include use of the TE. Once they upgrade the talent at TE with a Pope, Byrd or Marcedes, the scheme will "suddenly" get the ball more to the TE.

Addae (WV) did a very nice job at the senior bowl. how he comes out of the combine could jump him quite a bit. Watkins has the size, though I only saw him make like 1 tackle but he was always around the ball. KK is always around the ball, too... Blue may get switched to LB if he can;t run in coverages better. botom line is that we need a playmaker SS not another "average" guy like KK. With Kim Herring being out the better part of 2 seasons with injuries and the draft being loaded at S, it is not beyond possibility to grab a couple, one early and one late and send Herring packing.

K-Wash will be here next year if only for the reasons that the other WR FA's look bad, the draft is lacking at WR this year and he is not going to break the bank. CJ, TJ, CH, K-Walter, K-Wash, and Tab make a very very strong unit. I'm not sure you mess with that core of guys just to pick up another draft pick.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Ludwig's point about our current TE's tells me that they are hoping to get more production out of a Bengal TE, not that they the scheme does not include use of the TE. Once they upgrade the talent at TE with a Pope Byrd or Marcedes, the scheme will "suddenly" get the ball more to the TE.

No, it won't. We could have Antonio Gates in Cincinnati and he would not have more than 37 catches. It's not talent, it's scheme.

[Sox]

We don't need Antonio Gates.

What we do need is a TE that can both block and receive with some degree of skill.No more subbing situational TE's in different down and distances and tipping off the play selection.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

We don't need Antonio Gates.

What we do need is a TE that can both block and receive with some degree of skill.No more subbing situational TE's in different down and distances and tipping off the play selection.

Tipping off the play selection? Come on dude, leave that myth behind. None of our tight ends are receiving tight ends. Schoebel's job was the same as everyone elses this season. Yeah, last season, maybe we tipped people some. However, this season, we had a TE working on his blocking and a TE working on his catching. Both were interchangible.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Ludwig's point about our current TE's tells me that they are hoping to get more production out of a Bengal TE, not that they the scheme does not include use of the TE. Once they upgrade the talent at TE with a Pope Byrd or Marcedes, the scheme will "suddenly" get the ball more to the TE.

No, it won't. We could have Antonio Gates in Cincinnati and he would not have more than 37 catches. It's not talent, it's scheme.

Absolutely it's scheme. Bratkowski has never fully utilized it no matter where he has coached. He's always been that way...unfortunately.

[HoosierCat]

I can't see the Bengals getting better than a 4th rounder for K-Dub in a trade and that would have to take place about 2 weeks before the draft when the RFA deadline is over. Not many RFAs get plucked from teams -- I think there's been 2 in the past 2 years -- and both of those were undrafted so the team giving them up got no draft pick for them. A team burning a 3rd for K-Dub is highly unlikely, but remotely possible.

I would characterize it as more than remotely possible or highly unlikely. If you're looking for wideouts, this year's draft frankly sucks. Someone will likely worm their way into the first by draft day, but arguably there isn't a wideout worth a first round pick. There are maybe a half-dozen worth a second rounder. IMHO Kwash is at least equal to and probably better than anything that could be had at WR in the third this year.

I would put the odds of Kwash getting an offer in RFA at about 50/50.

[Sox]

We don't need Antonio Gates.

What we do need is a TE that can both block and receive with some degree of skill.No more subbing situational TE's in different down and distances and tipping off the play selection.

Tipping off the play selection? Come on dude, leave that myth behind. None of our tight ends are receiving tight ends. Schoebel's job was the same as everyone elses this season. Yeah, last season, maybe we tipped people some. However, this season, we had a TE working on his blocking and a TE working on his catching. Both were interchangible.

What myth is that?

Was it just a coincidence that Schoebel would come in the majority of the time on third and long?

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

We don't need Antonio Gates.

What we do need is a TE that can both block and receive with some degree of skill.No more subbing situational TE's in different down and distances and tipping off the play selection.

Tipping off the play selection? Come on dude, leave that myth behind. None of our tight ends are receiving tight ends. Schoebel's job was the same as everyone elses this season. Yeah, last season, maybe we tipped people some. However, this season, we had a TE working on his blocking and a TE working on his catching. Both were interchangible.

What myth is that?

Was it just a coincidence that Schoebel would come in the majority of the time on third and long?

No, but that didn't mean we would be throwing to him now did it? If that's "tipping off the play selection", don't we do the same when we put Chris Perry in as the 3rd down back?

[kingwilly]

Bringing in C. perry and Schoebel, thus tipping the play is a big problem to me.

Having a more talented TE, who can block and catch consistently will less lkely "Tip" a play based on that players presensce. C. Perry trotting in is another issue...

Running the "No huddle" as we did for a better part of the season is an even bigger reason as to why the new TE we take in the second round will need to be able to block and catch at a higher level than our current TE's. This will prevent any "Tipping" down the road, and create constatn mismatches for the guys who catch the ball. For that reason I see Perry's role running the ball expanding <insert drama here>.

We will take a TE on day one and TNBT will be purchasing me the jersey of that player, as per our bet. I' don;t expect the "Gameday" $275 one, just a regualr joe fan jersey. If the Bengals do not take a TE on day one, I'll be purchasing the jeresy of the player of his choice from the draft.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Ludwig's point about our current TE's tells me that they are hoping to get more production out of a Bengal TE, not that they the scheme does not include use of the TE. Once they upgrade the talent at TE with a Pope Byrd or Marcedes, the scheme will "suddenly" get the ball more to the TE.

No, it won't. We could have Antonio Gates in Cincinnati and he would not have more than 37 catches. It's not talent, it's scheme.

So you've personally consulted with Bob Bratkowski about this eh?

I'd rather see one guy getting 37 catches and masking tendencies as a full-time, 3-down TE, than 3 jokers taking up roster spots and doing hardly anything well, or maybe just one thing.

I would be quite happy with a Daniel Graham type here, or a couple of them. The more Palmer can consistently spread the ball around - the better. This subject has been talked about ad nauseum though, and I'll decline to comment further.

Was it just a coincidence that Schoebel would come in the majority of the time on third and long?

No, but that didn't mean we would be throwing to him now did it? If that's "tipping off the play selection", don't we do the same when we put Chris Perry in as the 3rd down back?

It absolutely tips off defenses to tendencies and formation triggers - you think a safety was taken out of a blitz or cover 2 in order to cover Schobel or Kelly? Anyone could cover those 2, anyone - even a fast d-lineman could pick up Kelly. That guy is no threat and there is no need to pay much attention to him, you can just put an extra man on Chad all day and let a LB deal with the TE here if he releases. Schobel is just unreliable - health wise and he can't block well enough to stay on the field very long either.

Perry is a 3rd down back - and the defense already knows the offense is going to throw on 3rd and long any ways - there's a difference there.

Plus Perry does get regular carries - it's why coaches alternate backs for entire series - not just one or two plays typically.

Alright that's the last comment!