The Bengals/Brat TE Myth

[bengalskyspy]

The idea that is so often quoted on this board that Brat doesn't like pass-catching Te's is a myth. The reason we don't pass to the TE is that they can't catch. Don't you all remember this pre-season when Brat was openly dissing his TE's in training camp. Giving Ghent a try at TE says it all. They just don't like what they've got. Also, when Marving says he is happy with his trio of TE's, he definitely is not. Marvin often says the opposite of what he really believes. Like.. "the DL line is not the problem"... and then going into FA trying to sign 2 DL's.

Trust me. They really would like to have a Heath Miller in this offense. If a TE is the BPA in the draft, then they will take him.

[TJJackson]

Yep, they will not hesitate to take a TE if that's the best player at that point. I doubt they will reach for a DL or S, despite the need for same, mostly since I know they needed to draft a DL and S **last year** and then obviously failed to do so, much to my displeasure.

[Stripes]

I agree 100%. It seems ignorant to claim that a better tight end would have no more effect on this offense than Matt Schobel has had. I hope we keep Reggie Kelly, he is one of the best blocking tight ends in the league. Even if he tips off our plays a bit, he is a useful asset. Tony Stewart could leave or stay, that remains to be seen, but Schobel has proven his worth. He struggles to get open consistently, drops passes, and is fumble proned.

I don't want to spend a first round pick on a tight end, but if that is the best option available, then by all means, do it.

[HoosierCat]

The idea that is so often quoted on this board that Brat doesn't like pass-catching Te's is a myth. The reason we don't pass to the TE is that they can't catch.

Schobel can catch just fine. At least, he doesn't drop passes any more often than Chad. The reason we don't throw to the TEs is because that would take away from throws to the wideouts & Chris Perry, where we are neck-deep in receiving talent. Bengals already throw too much, IMHO; who do you take tosses away from for the TE? Chad? TJ? Henry? Perry? Tough to justify.

I think they will take a TE in April, but I doubt it's in the first. It could happen, there will be a good player available guaranteed, I just think the defense gets the first again this year.

[Stripes]

Bengals already throw too much, IMHO

That would be my biggest worry in taking a tight end. Still, if we can land one, his usefulness would probably be mostly on third downs or in the red zone. His presence could help to sustain longer drives and add more total plays to the offensive game. I'm not certain pass/run ratio would change much if at all.

[Tasher]

No, no no! If we take a TE in the first round, we can design more RUNNING plays to hand the ball to the TE so we don't take throws away from our receivers. We can just take carries away from Rudi and Chris P. (They get the ball way too much anyway!)

Drip, drip, drip.

Don't we all complain unmercilessly when Rudi dosen't carry the ball 25-30 times a game? If we get 60 offensive snaps a game (which is alot), that will only leave 30-35 balls to go between Chad, TJ, Henry, Perry, 4wr and a new TE. It is simply unmanageable. Carson is already one of the very best at distributing to the highest number of targets (look at number or different receivers with recpts and number of receivers with more than 10 catches, etc.) But now to give him another major primary target is simply asking too much. I want the ball in Chad, TJ, Henry and Perry's hands the highest percentage of the time! No matter how you put it together, a TE (unless it is Gates) cannot compare to any of those four.

Just my opinion.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Then again with the amount of deep cover 2 teams play against the Bengals' to take away their size and speed downfield - adding a legitimate threat at TE could open things up and give Carson more flexibility in his reads and the offensive game plan might get a big boost.

But this requires a complete, 4-down TE that teams have to account for on running and passing plays.

As stated above, whether or not it's a 1st round priority, depending on who's available - is another story.

But I have no doubt they can save a roster spot on game day if they can find a complete TE that creates a layer of options the offense can use on 3rd downs and in the red zone in particular when you can audible a TE into blitz pickups or be a verifiable receiving threat if released from the line - and defenses are forced to commit a player to him - this just creates a lot of matchup problems and dilemnas for a defense that currently isn't there.

The Bengals' obviously don't feel comfortable going to Kelly or Schobel that often, and use them accordingly/sparingly.

Put a Gates or Miller in this offense and it becomes scary good to think about all of the possibilities you can create with match ups and play design in the off season.

[BengalChamps]

The Indy offense doesnt seem to be hurt by having TWO fast targets at TE. There should be enough offensive plays in a game to keep everyone happy. A solid threat at TE also helps to keep CJ from getting triple teamed

[buck3y3d]

The Indy offense doesnt seem to be hurt by having TWO fast targets at TE. There should be enough offensive plays in a game to keep everyone happy. A solid threat at TE also helps to keep CJ from getting triple teamed

And Indy still hasn't won a championship. This tells me something, like you need a balanced team with a good defense. There are so many more important needs than a TE. BTW, I have never seen an intentional triple team on CJ. If this is the case, there are 8 guys to guard 3 more wide recievers and a running back or TE. That means you have 4 down lineman and single coverage on every other reciever. Triple teams don't happen in the NFL for any reciever.

[derekshank]

I'll be the voice of moderation. I am actually someone whol likes the idea of a good pass catching TE, and don't think it will negatively effect the resto f the team. Carson always throws to the open receiver, and if we have another big offensive weapon, it will make the other players that much more effective. You tend to get more opportunities to catch passes when you convert 3rd downs thanks to multiple ways of making the conversion.

However... as the self-appointed voice of moderation, even though I would love having a firs round talent TE out there... I will be extremely upset if we decide to use our 1st round pick to fill this position. We had the 6th ranked offense in yardage, adn the 4th ranked in scoring.

However, we had the 28th ranked defense in yardage, and 22nd in scoring. There is a huge disparity there, and if you really think having a pass-catching TE while letting the quality DE's DT's and SS's go by in the 1st round is going to help this disparity you are dreaming. What this team needs is a pass rush.

Our offense is one of the best in the league without a top tier TE. Our Defense desperately needs multiple 1st day picks. We can't be casual about the buidling of this defense... and drafting a TE in the first round is not the way to get this done.

[ArmyBengal]

I'll be the voice of moderation. I am actually someone whol likes the idea of a good pass catching TE, and don't think it will negatively effect the resto f the team. Carson always throws to the open receiver, and if we have another big offensive weapon, it will make the other players that much more effective. You tend to get more opportunities to catch passes when you convert 3rd downs thanks to multiple ways of making the conversion.

However... as the self-appointed voice of moderation, even though I would love having a firs round talent TE out there... I will be extremely upset if we decide to use our 1st round pick to fill this position. We had the 6th ranked offense in yardage, adn the 4th ranked in scoring.

However, we had the 28th ranked defense in yardage, and 22nd in scoring. There is a huge disparity there, and if you really think having a pass-catching TE while letting the quality DE's DT's and SS's go by in the 1st round is going to help this disparity you are dreaming. What this team needs is a pass rush.

Our offense is one of the best in the league without a top tier TE. Our Defense desperately needs multiple 1st day picks. We can't be casual about the buidling of this defense... and drafting a TE in the first round is not the way to get this done.

Well said !!!

WHODEY !!!

[Kazkal]

The idea that is so often quoted on this board that Brat doesn't like pass-catching Te's is a myth. The reason we don't pass to the TE is that they can't catch.

Schobel can catch just fine. At least, he doesn't drop passes any more often than Chad. The reason we don't throw to the TEs is because that would take away from throws to the wideouts & Chris Perry, where we are neck-deep in receiving talent. Bengals already throw too much, IMHO; who do you take tosses away from for the TE? Chad? TJ? Henry? Perry? Tough to justify.

I think they will take a TE in April, but I doubt it's in the first. It could happen, there will be a good player available guaranteed, I just think the defense gets the first again this year.

Only would need take em away if needed like colts used clark vs us or as a red zone target to go with henry as a huge target which defensive guy can cover a guy who is 6'6 - 6'7 ok odell could but thats just cause he can jump

[andybren]

Impact TE's are the flavor of the month. We have more pressing needs. Like somebody who can stop impact TE's.

PS. It's not the pass-run ratio, it's WHEN Brat chooses to pass or run that's the problem.

[HoosierCat]

The Indy offense doesnt seem to be hurt by having TWO fast targets at TE. There should be enough offensive plays in a game to keep everyone happy.

Actually, Indy doesn't throw to its TEs all that much more than we do. Indy's TEs had a combined 60 receptions in '05, vs. 37 for ours; Dallas Clark only caught 37 balls. (Notably, Schobel's numbers compare favorably to Clark's if you project out from his 18 grabs to Clark's 37.)

The true stud TEs -- the kind of guy we'd be looking to get with a Vernon Davis or Mercedes Lewis or Leonard Pope in the first -- get a lot more balls heaved their way. Both Baltimore and SD had 100 or more receptions by TEs (Heap had 75, Gates had 89). Tony Gonzales in KC had 78 receptions, and Alge Crumpler and Jeremey Shockey pulled in 65 each. And those are just reception numbers; total attempts would be even higher.

[kingwilly]

For those who think that we would be wasting a Day 1 pick by going after an upgrade at the TE position because it would take away throws to CJ, TJ, CH and CP or because Brat does not "like" TE's, then you are a fool. The purpose of the "impact" TE is the same as that of getting CP in the pass game: creating a mismatch. Schoebel, Kelley and Stewart do not create ANY mismatch.

Stop getting tied up in the idea that the passing weapons HAVE to get looks. Bottom line is that an impact TE would make this O even more productive and lethal by creating a mismatch with a LB/S, require the attention/accountability of the D and give Palmer one more VIABLE option in his progressions. Whoever gets open should get the ball. Sometimes it will be CJ...TJ...CH...CP and hopefully a better, more talented TE who can make plays.

[buck3y3d]

For those who think that we would be wasting a Day 1 pick by going after an upgrade at the TE position because it would take away throws to CJ, TJ, CH and CP or because Brat does not "like" TE's, then you are a fool. The purpose of the "impact" TE is the same as that of getting CP in the pass game: creating a mismatch. Schoebel, Kelley and Stewart do not create ANY mismatch.

I know a TE would help, but he is not needed. We need defense, so we would be wasting a first day pick. We don't need a TE to win a Super Bowl, we do need a DL, CB, and safety.

[Jet23]

For those who think that we would be wasting a Day 1 pick by going after an upgrade at the TE position because it would take away throws to CJ, TJ, CH and CP or because Brat does not "like" TE's, then you are a fool. The purpose of the "impact" TE is the same as that of getting CP in the pass game: creating a mismatch. Schoebel, Kelley and Stewart do not create ANY mismatch.

Stop getting tied up in the idea that the passing weapons HAVE to get looks. Bottom line is that an impact TE would make this O even more productive and lethal by creating a mismatch with a LB/S, require the attention/accountability of the D and give Palmer one more VIABLE option in his progressions. Whoever gets open should get the ball. Sometimes it will be CJ...TJ...CH...CP and hopefully a better, more talented TE who can make plays.

I agree that a good TE could make the offense even more potent. The 87 - 88 Bengals had weapons too, but Holman running that post pattern opened things up for the skill guys even more. Holman had a big advantage over Schobel, because he was an excellent blocker. Unfortunately, I think they have to address the DL and Safety position first.

[HoosierCat]

Stop getting tied up in the idea that the passing weapons HAVE to get looks.

Yeah, I know, us fools should stop getting caught up in facts...pesky things.

he purpose of the "impact" TE is the same as that of getting CP in the pass game: creating a mismatch. Schoebel, Kelley and Stewart do not create ANY mismatch.

Well, for a guy who desn't create any mismatch Schobel's 10.7 ypc average looks pretty good, eh? That's right up there with Heap (11.4) and Gonzales (11.6). Throw him the ball 70-80 times a year and he'd look like a stud, too.

Bottom line is that an impact TE would make this O even more productive and lethal by creating a mismatch with a LB/S, require the attention/accountability of the D and give Palmer one more VIABLE option in his progressions. Whoever gets open should get the ball. Sometimes it will be CJ...TJ...CH...CP and hopefully a better, more talented TE who can make plays.

We already have those mismatch guys, their names are Houshmanzadeh and Chris Perry. Heck, might even have one named Schobel if we threw him the ball...

[jtsmith38]

I think a good blocking TE, with Chris Perry coming out of the backfield more, totally makes up for a supposed all pro receiving TE. The offense has shown that 9 times out of 10, they can impose their will, move the ball, and put some point up on that board and win a game for Cin-cin-nati . Use picks to continue building the defense, to make it as good as the offense. You cant be one dimensional. Gotta pass, gotta run, gotta play D, and gotta make plays on special teams.

on pissburg

WHO-DEY

[ShulaSteakhouse]

For those who think that we would be wasting a Day 1 pick by going after an upgrade at the TE position because it would take away throws to CJ, TJ, CH and CP or because Brat does not "like" TE's, then you are a fool. The purpose of the "impact" TE is the same as that of getting CP in the pass game: creating a mismatch. Schoebel, Kelley and Stewart do not create ANY mismatch.

Stop getting tied up in the idea that the passing weapons HAVE to get looks. Bottom line is that an impact TE would make this O even more productive and lethal by creating a mismatch with a LB/S, require the attention/accountability of the D and give Palmer one more VIABLE option in his progressions. Whoever gets open should get the ball. Sometimes it will be CJ...TJ...CH...CP and hopefully a better, more talented TE who can make plays.

Agreed. If TE's were that invaluable, no one would use them. But they open up your playbook and create more problems for a defense, simply put. It would be "very very nice" to have a good one who can do everything - looks like it'll be a FA or gem hopeful in the 2nd-4th rounds though.

If Schobel could block and stay healthy when he did play a lot, he'd be that TE.

[kingwilly]

The fact is a more talented TE would be getting Kelly's and Schoebel's throws, maybe even more, and that would not detract from the offense. Comparing Schoebel's YPC avg to Heap's and saying by throwing to him more, he'd look like a stud is like saying Kenny Watson's avg per carry compares favorably to Rudi's so we should hand him the ball more....that doesn't quite equate. Schoebel did not catch more than 3 passes in any game last year. If he was a mismatch I have to believe there would be more his way.

Don't get me wrong, I do not see the need for a 70-80 catch TE.

A little comparison of some QB's on top offenses:

Palmer completed 345 passes for 32 TD's. 38 (11%) went to TE's who scored 2 TD's.

Manning completed 305 passes for 28 TD's. 60 (19%) went to TE's who scored 9 TD's.

Brady completed 334 passes for 26 TD's. 53 (15%) went to TE's who scored 9 TD's.

Brees completed 323 passes for 24 TD's. 100 (31%) went to TE's for 11 TD's.

Hasselback completed 294 passes for 24 TD's. 58 (19%) went to TE's for 6 TD's.

before you say..."how'd those teams do in the playoffs?" or some other stuff, consider the differences in percentages and TD's...pretty drastic.

The other merit of having a better TE option means we could probably carry 2, instead of 3, thus opening a roster spot for another defensive player...or OL.

Having an upgrade of talent at TE can only make this Offense better. I'm surprised there is such a resistance to the idea and such an accpetance that Schoebel and Kelly are adequate...

Better TE talent means more utilization. More utilization means more accountability, play to play, for the TE thus opening things up even more for CJ, TJ and CH. Having an opposing Def Coord. worry about an additional weapon means more chances for everyone.

[HoosierCat]

The fact is a more talented TE would be getting Kelly's and Schoebel's throws, maybe even more, and that would not detract from the offense.

No one, myself included, said it would detract from the offense. But to that point, what would it add? You bring up TDs in your statistics. We already have the No. 4 scoring offense in the league. The principle of diminishing returns would argue that a stud TE is a unaffordable luxury, especially with a D in the bottom quarter of the league. If one somehow falls into our laps with a late draft pick or in FA, fine, but IMHO the biggest benefit one could offer is that we could go with two TEs and free up a roster spot elsewhere.

A little comparison of some QB's on top offenses:

Palmer completed 345 passes for 32 TD's. 38 (11%) went to TE's who scored 2 TD's.

Manning completed 305 passes for 28 TD's. 60 (19%) went to TE's who scored 9 TD's.

Brady completed 334 passes for 26 TD's. 53 (15%) went to TE's who scored 9 TD's.

Brees completed 323 passes for 24 TD's. 100 (31%) went to TE's for 11 TD's.

Hasselback completed 294 passes for 24 TD's. 58 (19%) went to TE's for 6 TD's.

Well, there ya go. You want more production....you gotta throw more balls to the TE. We threw 538 times versus 459 runs in 2005. Either we unblanace that further by throwing more or we take throws away from other receivers.

[schweinhart]

For better or worse, the Bengals have painted themselves into a corner with Chris SUPERSTAR Perry. Relying on him to receive rather than a TE largely commits the team to what they'll do on offense, including cutting back the use of Rudi for a much lesser running RB but a much better receiver out of the backfield.

Perry caught a lot of balls (51) and did well to get his share of 1st downs (16) but the 6.4 yards per catch average must improve, as must his production vs. defenses that use 3 man fronts. In two years, Schobel has caught for more yards and first downs than Perry with fewer catches (39-394/10 ypc/19 1st downs).

Brat does limit the use of the TE receiving with good reason considering the WRs. TE use is even further limited with Carson at QB because he clearly wants to go vertical whenever possible and has shown in spades the ability to get that done.

The Bengals still will need at least 1 TE from somewhere this year if Schobel and Stewart aren't re-signed. Plus, they need to be mindful that Kelly is going into his last contract year and the TE draft class is very deep this year. If that TE can block, catch, get YAC, and run some vertical routes, then it will make the Bengals offense even scarier for other teams to deal with.

[andybren]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see what Chris Perry (or Kenny Watson before him) has to do with tight ends.

Don't RB's usually catch screen passes in the flat? I don't think I've ever seen a TE do that.

[kingwilly]

There are two constraints.

The first is there are only so many passing plays per game. The issue is that for every pass a TE catches, that is one less for the rest. If CP catches 51 balls, TJ for 70, CJ for 90+ and CH for 40-50..that leaves about 50-70 distributed to the FB, TE's, Rudi and 3rd/4th WR.

The second is that despite himself, Brat looks vertically before he opts to run or work a deisgned underneath mismatch. The truth is that unitl our D improves, scoring quick can backfire, in that if we don't work the clock with the run and short effective passes, we run the risk of having the D get hung out to dry, time of possession wise.

I've said it once that this offense is a Ferrari that brat only takes to the drag strip. Sure, it turns a good quarter mile time, but get it out on a road course and open it up to realize the full potential of such a potent machine.