walzav29 Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 I blame him specifically for the defensive struggles against the run. I think he was talking about Odell when he said guys were being "selfish", but it seems to me that if your D-line is never doing anything than it would be natural for the linebackers to try to make plays that you are not making. I know it's not just him, but he thinks he's better than he is. I say get rid of him, move B. Rob to 2nd string and cutB. SimmonsO. OhaleteKKJ. SmithJ. ThortonD. ClemonsThat's basically 5 new starters on defense. They have to draft a DT, SS, and DE. I think Landon can fill in for Simmons. Quote
AMC Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Is it just me or has Thornton come across as a malcontent this year. Not really a team guy??? Maybe it's just me. I don't have an opinion one way or the other on the guy.J. Smith is an interesting case. he will command money that couls be spent elsewhere on the team...He may be the biggest substraction this coming year.KK always finds a way to stick around, so I would actually be surprised if he is gone.Mitchell, Ohalete, Schobel, Clemons, etc = see ya later.... Quote
The_Next_Big_Thing Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Let me get this straight. You want to cut KK, who started all year long at just over league minimum, and who played pretty well considering he is a 3rd stringer being asked to be our #1 safety. You want to cut a guy who plays for nothing and will fill in at cornerback or free safety and do an ok job at either position. A guy who is always around the ball, when he shouldn't HAVE TO BE.Perhaps some of the proceeds from TJs haircut should come your way. Quote
walzav29 Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Posted January 10, 2006 You can get anyone to play those positions and suck. I'd rather have someone with talent playing those spots. Quote
The_Next_Big_Thing Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 You can get anyone to play those positions and suck. I'd rather have someone with talent playing those spots.KK Doesn't suck, your brain does. 3 interceptions, 4 passes defensed, 3 fumble recoveries, 2nd on the team in tackles, and only 1 tackle shy of being #1 in SOLO tackles for the team. This from a freaking 3rd stringer who gets minimum pay. If you need a guy to jump off the bench because a corner or a safety goes down for a game, KK is perfect to fill in. HE DOES HIS JOB and then some. Quote
walshfan Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 KK filled in for starters... thats all.. he had some stats.. lets talk about all the blown coverages and times he is late making tackles..He's mediocre at best but they'll keep him cause he's cheap.. he should be cheap.. Quote
AMC Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 KK filled in for starters... thats all.. he had some stats.. lets talk about all the blown coverages and times he is late making tackles..He's mediocre at best but they'll keep him cause he's cheap.. he should be cheap..They'll keep him for special teams and a back-up....he made the team as a back-up this year and was forced to start....can't blame the guy for putting up numbers in that situation. everybody knows he's not a starter, but I want him on my team any day... Quote
oldschooler Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 The Colts had the 31st ranked Defense last year.Did they cut all of their players ?The fact is the Defense is the youngest part ofthe team.The Bengals have a great core of young talent.As for Thornton...I`ve always liked him.I think he gets bashed way more than he deserves.I`m not saying he is a Pro Bowler in the making.But he is alot better than people give him credit for. Quote
DC_Bengals_Fan Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 KK filled in for starters... thats all.. he had some stats.. lets talk about all the blown coverages and times he is late making tackles..He's mediocre at best but they'll keep him cause he's cheap.. he should be cheap..They'll keep him for special teams and a back-up....he made the team as a back-up this year and was forced to start....can't blame the guy for putting up numbers in that situation. everybody knows he's not a starter, but I want him on my team any day...Seconded. It's not his fault everybody in front of him either sucked or got hurt, and he actually made some great plays this year. He deserves to come back as a backup. Sadly, he was the best safety on the team this year after Madieu went down and deserves to be rewarded for the job he did filling in.Now Ohalete, on the other hand... Quote
ShulaSteakhouse Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Justin Smith?Clemons?Robinson?KK?James?Simmons?Powell?Webster?Ohalete?None of them are "young" by any means - Indy trimmed the fat and went out and drafted a DE early, signed a major impact FA on the DL, and drafted some DB's and LB's who could play.KK's fine as a backup - it's when he's starting every game that he shows his sores.If you're playing as many snaps as KK did last year - you better have #'s of some sort in this defense, playing that particular position. Quote
Kirkendall Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 As for Thornton...I`ve always liked him.I think he gets bashed way more than he deserves.I`m not saying he is a Pro Bowler in the making.But he is alot better than people give him credit for.That's true with a lot of players getting dumped from some members of this site. Quote
The_Next_Big_Thing Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Justin Smith?Clemons?Robinson?KK?James?Simmons?Powell?Webster?Ohalete?None of them are "young" by any means - Indy trimmed the fat and went out and drafted a DE early, signed a major impact FA on the DL, and drafted some DB's and LB's who could play.KK's fine as a backup - it's when he's starting every game that he shows his sores.If you're playing as many snaps as KK did last year - you better have #'s of some sort in this defense, playing that particular position.Indy signed a major impact FA on the DL? WHO? Because it sure as heck wasn't Corey Simon! Quote
walshfan Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Why is Thornton better at what fans give him credit for??what is it Im missing when I watch this guy constantly get taken out by one blocker and never penetrate the line with any consistency??? Quote
The_Next_Big_Thing Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Why is Thornton better at what fans give him credit for??what is it Im missing when I watch this guy constantly get taken out by one blocker and never penetrate the line with any consistency???He played just as well as the "big impact" free agent Corey Simon did this season.... Quote
oldschooler Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 Why is Thornton better at what fans give him credit for??what is it Im missing when I watch this guy constantly get taken out by one blocker and never penetrate the line with any consistency???He has averaged 42 tackles and 3 and a half sacks a seasonsince he has been a Bengal.He forced 2 fumbles this season. He has never been hurt. And he is said to be a leader in the locker room.Corey Simon had 34 tackles 0 sacks and 0 forced fumble for the Colts.Warren Sapp has averaged 37 tackles and 3.75 sacks a season for the Raiderssince he signed with them.Like I said...JT doesn`t deserve the bashing he gets. Quote
CBin2k7 Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 How many of Thornton's tackles come 5 yards down the field. Most DT's are not judged by stats likes tackles or sacks, but by penetration, ability to make a play deviate and force it to the outside, or holding up at the point of attack. I don't see it to often from Thornton. Quote
oldschooler Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 How many of Thornton's tackles come 5 yards down the field. Most DT's are not judged by stats likes tackles or sacks, but by penetration, ability to make a play deviate and force it to the outside, or holding up at the point of attack. I don't see it to often from Thornton.Well I`d say sacks are at least an indicator of penetration.How many did Corey Simon get ?How much penetration did he have ?And a tackle down field is still a tackle is it not ?That shows hustle and not giving up on a play ! Quote
Stripes Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 He played just as well as the "big impact" free agent Corey Simon did this season.... Gotta disagree here... Simon didn't compile large tackle numbers, one less than Thornton I believe... But he played his role very well. He was usually able to hold his own and more at the line of scrimmage to force running backs to redirect themselves and end up tackled by the ends or linebackers. I credit Simon's presence to the Colts much improved run defense and to Cato Junes huge spike in production (aside from his interceptions of course). Quote
The_Next_Big_Thing Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 The impact on the defensive line for INdy wasn't overated Simon, it was the improved play of the defensive ends. Quote
HairOnFire Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 J. Thorton I'd give more weight to your biting criticism of Thornton if you'd bothered to learn his name. Quote
Stripes Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 The impact on the defensive line for INdy wasn't overated Simon, it was the improved play of the defensive ends. Could be. I'd argue that Simon's presence is what allowed the ends to have more success. Freeney didn't have quite the year he had last year, obviously due to double teams and that freed up Mathis. Still, Freeney was double teamed last year too, and we didn't see similar success from the rest of the line then. Before Simon, the Colts were starting Josh Williams, a player I would place in a similar mold with Thornton. With Simon playing beside him, Montae Reagor also had a boost in statistics. While the ends did improve, and that certainly made an impact, I'd argue that such an impact was more apparent in the Colts pass rush than it's run defense. Credit the rud defense to the improvement from Williams to Simon, Reagor's emergence, as well as Cato June's season.It's all speculation without being able to study the tape though. Quote
walzav29 Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Posted January 10, 2006 It's all about the pressure. If you get pressure on the QB, that means the corners have less time to cover. DT's help out the DE's by using up offensive linemen. That's what makes the Bengals whole defense look like crap. No pressure from the D-line, results in more pressure on the secondary, which results in the defense looking like crap. There is no doubt that Simon helped Freeney and the other guy get sacks. Quote
TecmoFever Posted January 10, 2006 Report Posted January 10, 2006 I've been a Thornton backer since he got here. Thinking about it objectively, though, I can't fathom a good Bengals defense with him as one of my starting DT's, and it's not like he's cheap (like KK).I'd much rather keep Justin Smith than Thornton, even though Smith gets paid more. Quote
HoosierCat Posted January 11, 2006 Report Posted January 11, 2006 Justin Smith?Clemons?Robinson?KK?James?Simmons?Powell?Webster?Ohalete?My guesses...Justin - staysClemons/Powell - at least 1 goes, maybe bothRobinson - staysK2 - stays as backup DB-of-all-trades (and master of none)James - toss-up. Not convinced Keiwan is ready.Simmons - staysWebster - FA, goesOhalete - way goneOthers:Thornton - staysCaleb Miller - toss-up, lean toward goes.Askew - way, way goneLandon - staysOdell - staysPollack - staysGreg Brooks - goesKeiwan - staysGeathers - staysFanene - staysHerring - goesHannibal Navies - goesAnthony Mitchell - goesShaun Smith - staysMadieu - staysThat would open 2-3 spots on the d-line, 2 holes at safety, 2 (possibly 3) spots at LB, and 1 (perhaps 2) spots at CB.On offense I think we may see some changes at TE, K-wash probably goes (for a third round pick) and of course there's the Kitna situation, but that's all. Quote
ShulaSteakhouse Posted January 11, 2006 Report Posted January 11, 2006 IF they can find upgrades at DE, DT, S, CB, C, and TE in one offseason -they could be in business. Quote
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