Benching Kitna's a bad move for Bengals

[Kirkendall]

From Paul Daugherty on the Enquirer... (not me, hehe)

Sometime soon, Marvin Lewis will announce that the NFL Comeback Player of the Year will come back and not play. Jon Kitna will warm the Bengals bench, with lots of time to wonder, again, why being good isn't good enough.

Kitna had the best season of his career last year. He threw 26 TD passes and only 15 picks. Not good enough. Twelve games into it, the Bengals were tied for first place. Every team in the AFC Central wished it had Kitna calling its signals. He was a dark horse candidate for MVP. Not good enough.

His teammates liked him, respected him, considered him a leader. Not good enough. He will be 32 in September, prime time for NFL QBs, most of whom need several years in the league before the game slows down. Kitna was good enough last year. That's not good enough.

Lewis will say it's Carson Palmer's time. He likes Palmer's long-ball potential and, at 6-foot-5, his ability to see the field. Kitna was Greg Maddux; Palmer is Roger Clemens.

Lewis likes how Palmer kept his lip buttoned, even when the Bengals were 1-4 and Kitna was one bad half from watching Palmer's coming-out party. Lewis thinks he has seen enough of Palmer in practice and in training camp to know he's special.

The coach could be right. You can't keep a No. 1 pick on the bench - not when he's a quarterback, not when he's making more money than all but eight players in the entire league.

Kitna is a team player. He has a strong faith that grounds him. He has been in this position before (Gus Frerotte, 2002). He will take this without complaint. Let me complain for him.

Kitna got jobbed.

The Bengals are telling him last year was a fluke. In a league where 75 percent of the teams are seeking a reliable quarterback and the other 25 percent pray theirs stays healthy, the Bengals will bench a quarterback who took every snap last season.

You say Kitna was awful three of the last four games, all losses. I say the defense was bad all four. Without Kitna, the Bengals don't beat San Francisco 41-38.

You say the long-term future is now. It's Carson's time. I'll say in the NFL, "long-term future" is an oxymoron. It's not a rent-to-own league. I'll say look at Joe Gibbs - he's back coaching the Washington Redskins, whom he led to three Super Bowls. The first thing he did was trade for Mark Brunell, soon to be 34. Gibbs says Brunell will compete with Patrick Ramsey. Given the Redskins paid Brunell $8.6 million to sign, it won't be much of a competition.

Gibbs is more comfortable with the veteran Brunell, who played in three games last year.

With Palmer's growing pains and a harder schedule, 8-8 again will be a good record for the Bengals.

Tell me Daunte Culpepper started his second season. Yeah, with a Pro Bowl offense: Randy Moss, Cris Carter, Robert Smith, Korey Stringer. Give me all the standard lines: Kitna fumbles, Kitna can't make big throws, Kitna can't win big games. Where were those lines when the Bengals were winning six of seven?

Where is it written that because a player is drafted high and makes a lot of money, he has to play? Where does it say that Carson Palmer will die of boredom if he sits another year? Did waiting hurt Kurt Warner or Jake Delhomme or Steve McNair? Rich Gannon's overnight success took a decade.

Lewis has suggested regardless of which quarterback plays, each will be expected to win. Is Palmer ready for a short leash?

Mostly, it comes down to this: Jon Kitna earned the right to lose his job on the field.

So much for loyalty. So much for production. So much for good enough. It's not good enough. Lewis is right in naming a starter before summer camp begins. He's just naming the wrong guy.

[hottub]

You beat me to it, K. I think Daugherty's right on the money. The Bengals' weakness last year was defense, not offense. Unless they add some big D this off-season, I foresee a tough year next year. Downgrading to a big dumb QB isn't going to help any.

[BengalszoneBilly]

The only person that "jobbed" Kitna was himself, and his spotty play. His tendency to hold the ball too long, and occasional inability to see/read the blitz was just as big a factor. He's just a case of "close...but not quite", which perfectly describes his entire career! (IMHO)

Depending on Carsons performance, which admittedly is a big unknown, he (Jon) still may see some starts as a Bengal. But looking at it from a coach/management point of view, they want to see some bang from their buck. You don't spend $50 million on anything, and don't try it out! I think the pressure will be great on Carson from all angles. The fans, the front office, and especially the opposing teams defenses. He's an untested rookie, and they are going to try to rattle him. To hit him hard early and try to shake him.

And even though Kitna is a veteran, it happened to him from time to time too. Sacks and interceptions came in bunches. Usually one goes in hand with the other. I also think alot of Palmers impending success depends on how good of protection his offensive line/play calling allows. I don't think this is one of Bratkowski's strong suits.

So this writer feels bad for Jon. I do to, and if it wasn't for Carson sitting there on the bench, I'd still be for him as the starter. Again it all boils down to money, doesn't it?

[richmond_mat]

You beat me to it, K.  I think Daugherty's right on the money.  The Bengals' weakness last year was defense, not offense.  Unless they add some big D this off-season, I foresee a tough year next year.  Downgrading to a big dumb QB isn't going to help any.

I know that I'm in the minority here when I say:

Kitna is the Bengals' starting QB until he gets hurt or Palmer outplays him.

The last thing any team needs is controversy, especially at the quarterback position. I hate paying alot of money to a bench warmer, but it makes no sense to make kitna the backup. He's proven himself adequate and capable of leading the team. Odds indicate he will be roughed up by game eight and then Palmer will get his turn.

[hottub]

I've never really understood the money argument. Kitna and Palmer are both going to be here regardless, correct? Ignoring performance bonuses, both get paid regardless. If the money is the same either way, why is it a factor?

Besides, starting is not just about money - it's also about injury. Starting the high-priced "rookie" risks losing him to injury. Why do that sooner than you have to? Although Kitna took every applicable snap last year, next year's starter is unlikely to do so. If Kitna starts then goes down to injury, Palmer would have a chance to step in and win the job, ala Brett Favre.

IMO, that scenario would given Palmer his best chance to succeed. I think that if Palmer is "given" the job, he'll feel pressure to prove that it was the right decision. If so, that pressure could cause him to make wrong decisions on the field. Whereas if Kitna is out due to injury, that pressure shouldn't exist. Palmer certainly should play ahead of Shane Matthews

[BengalszoneBilly]

Ignoring performance bonuses, both get paid regardless. If the money is the same either way, why is it a factor?

It's NOT the same. Yes, they both get money. It's the AMOUNT of money they get that puts the onus on the situation!

If Carson Palmer starts, and c'mon, we know he will, and fails to perform, I'll be among the first hollering for Jon to start taking the snaps. We just need to know about the possibilities now. For the money and the teams success reasons.

[BengalsNYC]

In response to the last few posts.....

We are not exactly talking about Pop Warner football here, we are talking about professionals. When we drafted Carson he knew that we wanted him to be the future, the face of this organization for the foreseeable future...From day one this guy was going to be under a lot of pressure. As someone pointed out earlier, only 11 or so players make more money than this guy in the ENTIRE league, at some point he is going to have to prove he is worth it. I do not understand all the talk about "It's too much pressure to put him in from day one, let's see if Jon gets hurt or plays bad to put Carson in under less stress." Is this the guy we are going to one day expect to drive us 90 yds with no timeouts with 1:45 left in the game? I love Jon Kitna, don't get me wrong....I think he is a class act all the way around but he knows as well as everyone else that he is NOT the future of this franchise, and one day would come where he would have to gracefully bow out and either accept the role of mentor/backup or explore other avenues with another franchise. Kitna is a quarterback that is able to make up for lack of physical talent with his knowledge and great leadership. We have a guy on the sidelines who has all the physical talent just waiting for his chance to lead this club. After reading some of these previous posts, its almost like everyone is all of a sudden scared to roll the dice with our #1 draft pick. I agree that until last year we had been burned with the majority of our first round picks, especially with quarterbacks and that everyone is frightened that Carson will bust too and continue the depressing streak. No one can say for certain that won't happen, but unlike the other QBs, Carson was not forced into battle without knowing how to fight....He has a year under his belt watching and hearing how Bratkowski calls his offense, that has to count for something. I am not saying he will come in from day one and put up Manning like numbers (maybe he will) but like it or not he is the future of this franchise and the future is now guys...

[BengalszoneBilly]

A very lucid comment BengalsNYC. Great points all around.

You must get sick of hearing a barrage of Jets/Giants news, don't ya! Thanks for standing tall for us in the big apple!

[HoosierCat]

Another Kitna v. Palmer thread? Oh, why the heck not...it's been a couple weeks since the last one

It's funny, in a way. I was only lukewarm to the idea of drafting Palmer in the first place, not because I didn't think he'd be a good NFL QB, but because I thought it likely that Kitna would improve. After all, he was coming into his third year in the system, and with the same primary weapons, we finally seemed to have nailed down the LT spot long-term, and we had a real coaching and conditioning staff for the first time in forever. And far from it being his fault, Kitna was one of the few bright spots on the miserable '02 campaign (tho his brightness wasn't of a particularly high wattage).

In short, I thought the team could do 7 wins with Kitna, and they ended up with 8, and it would be better to trade the pick or use it on D. However, the Bengals apparently couldn't find a trading partner and didn't want to pay $50 million for a safety, so...Palmer it was.

From the minute Tags called his name in New York -- heck, before that, from the minute the pre-draft deal got done -- the writing was on the wall in indelible ink: Palmer would be behind center in 2004 (and maybe in 2003 if Kitna stank it up). As others here have observed, "dem' da conditions dat prevail" (apologies to J. Durante).

I asked back then, on several boards, what do we do if Kitna does have a pro bowl season? Or even just a good one. I never got a good answer. Well, that's what happened, and here we are, and there still isn't a good answer.

And let me emphasize: there isn't a good answer. There isn't. At all. Neither choice is truly palatable. Daugherty's absolutely right, Kitna's getting jobbed. But if the call had gone the other way, he could just as easily write "Palmer's getting jobbed." The Bengals coaching staff is certainly not dumber than me. They had to think the same things I did about the liklihood of Kitna improving. And they had to have decided that even if he did improve, the job was still going to Palmer in 2004. Otherwise, they had no business taking him in the first place.

Let me be clear: not even winning the Super Bowl could have saved Kitna's job. As Billy points out, no team can afford two starting QBs. And Kitna's going into his final year. As a backup, we can afford to extend him. As a starter...well, we're already paying a starting QB. So it's time he got behind center.

[BengalszoneBilly]

I think that's the main point Joisey, we are not privey to what the coaching staff knows. If they want to start Carson, well there must be a damn good reason for it, although the money pressure cannot be denied.

I don't think Marvin would knuckle under to ANY pressure, so I reason he thinks our best chance for the future rides on Carsons shoulders now. If I'm wrong, and he starts Kitna...so be it, and I will support Jon. To me it's whatever Marvin calls, but I'm thinkin' it's Carson starting at QB! In fact I'd bet good money it'll not be any other way.

[BengalsNYC]

Billy,

You're right I do get sick of the Jets/Giants and how they dominate the sports bar TVs and how I have to get there by 1230pm to secure a seat and request my Bengals...I am originally from the Queen City so I have bled orange and black for quite a while now. I have actually converted about two New Yorkers to become Bengals fans, it actually happened about the time I was screaming with my hands in the air when PDub got behind the secondary and scored in the win vs. KC, surprise, surprise...It was refreshing though when I still saw them weeks later to cheer us on to a W vs. San Fran.... Anyhow, I can't get into hockey and my Musketeers are just playing bad basketball so I am all about the Bengals and can't wait for free agency to officially begin this week. I am going to continue to fuel the fire and comment on Kits vs. Carson 2004, again.

I agree with Marvin in making his decision so early for a number of reasons:

Quarterback controversies rarely end up benefiting anyone asides from opposing defenses....

(Who remembers good 'ol Gus Frerrote's left handed gaffe?)

Giving Carson the coaches and managements seal of approval this early gives the young QB loads of confidence that hopefully can tranform into better ability to lead and and allow him to relax and let the game come to him.

The early announcement also will give Marvin plenty of time to quell the critics (see Daugherty, Paul)

and allow Carson some breathing room during mini camps and make it seem more like a Carson promotion vs. a Kitna demotion.

Personally, I am not worried at all about Marvin's decision....I trust him and the decision he will make...The man knows football and will not put our Bengals in a bad position for making a run at the AFC North crown in '04.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Well keep on converting them New Yorkers Reverend BengalsNYC!! I too am surprised at Xaviers disappearance from the to 25 NCAA teams. My mom graduated from Xavier in 1971 with a masters in education, hence my alliegence with them (Ohio-wise) and not UC! I'm still a hard core UK supporter, but the Musketeers still hold a place in my heart through my dear old mom!

And as far as your comment: I am going to continue to fuel the fire and comment on Kits vs. Carson 2004, again, well untill something unforseen happens, I'll be with you!

[Bobcat Bengal]

Well yeah, Kitna performed admirably during this season, and I backed him through the entiritey. But riddle me this; why does it take the threat of him losing his starting QB spot to have the best season of his career? Its like as soon as Palmer came into the picture, he decided to put his A game on....thats what I dont like.....and I say once he gets in, let him stay in....don't keep yanking him out when he inevitably f**ks up....this is quite a problem to have I'd say....

The difference is that Kitna made Chad look like an all-world; he had to break stride and pull off these adroit catches, Palmer will probably get the ball to the recievers in stride, and not make Chad look so good with all the acrobatic catches he makes...So what do suggest, let CP sit on the bench for another year? Cmon man, you cant be serious. This ain't Akili, this ain't Klinger, this ain't Pennington...if this was a few years back, yeah, let him sit there, he'd get moidered...but our Offense is our strong point now....Willie and Levi are solid blockers, Steinbach is solid, Me, Chad and Peter have been in the system for a while, what more do you want?

[BengalszoneBilly]

So what do suggest, let CP sit on the bench for another year? Cmon man....you cant be serious

As my Marine Corps Drill Instructor said repeatedly..Ain't that a "no s**tter"!!

[Bobcat Bengal]

And as far as pressure, the dude played at USC, one of the largest football arenas in the country....he played when he was true freshman, the first time thats ever happened...He had the pressure of Heisman candidate to live up to his last campaign....I think he's pretty adept to dealing with it...thats why he's so low-key....plus he has a whole helluva less pressure to deal with than his rookie season....meanwhile, Boller and Leftwich are plugged in ready to go....

[BengalszoneBilly]

meanwhile, Boller and Leftwich are plugged in ready to go....

Believe me, Boller ain't all that plugged in! He's got Wright right behind him waiting for his first muckup, which knowing Boller, won't be too long in coming!

[Kirkendall]

The money issue is absolutely ridiculous. You'll start a guy because he's making gobs of money rather than proving anything on the field? That's absolutely asinine. If its money that causes Palmer to start, then we're in for a long season and Mike Brown truly hasn't lessened his grip on the team, something I would be highly concerned about. Which promotes something I believe is going to hurt football and that's huge salaries and signing bonuses for guys that hasn't played a down. I'm still big on incentive based salaries rather than base salary.

I look at it this way, if Palmer is going to start, then he better set a new standard for Bengals quarterbacks, if not, he’s not worth it. BTW – if he only goes 8-8, just like Kitna last season, is everyone going to give him a free pass and say, well it was his first year? I hope not, he’s being paid to do the job from the get-go and if he doesn’t answer immediately then I’m sure there will be a lot of retractors as there should be.

BTW - MOST of Kitnas' throws that took Chad offline a little were about 50 yards downfield. These are NOT high percentage throws in the first place and Kitna MOST of the time threw to a point that the defender couldn't get to. Plus with Kitna knowing his limitation on arm strength allows him to adjust to routes in which he knows the defense will not be around. Palmer will throw more interceptions because he believes he has "better arm strength" throwing a wire into an 8 inch window.

Why not allow Kitna to fail -- if he’ll even do that -- and then let Palmer come in? Just because Palmer was a first pick enables him to take over a franchise? Just because Palmer makes tons of money enables him to take over a franchise? Just because Palmer's arm strength allows him throw the ball further downfield enables him to take over franchise? Just because Palmer has tons of potential enables him to take over a franchise? Nothing here promotes a QB that will WIN games.

And don't get me started on "games that he lost", because he won a hellva lot more games on his arm than anyone else on this team. If it wasn't for Kitna, we'd be a hellva lot more miserable with a 4-12 record with Palmer in and no hope at all.

[HoosierCat]

The money issue is absolutely ridiculous.  You'll start a guy because he's making gobs of money rather than proving anything on the field?  That's absolutely asinine.

The "wooshing" sound you just heard was that made by the point, passing far above Kirk's head. It isn't simply Palmer's salary that's the issue, Kirk, it's Palmer and Kitna's combined salaries that are the issue. Kitna will cost us close to 4.4 million in 2004 without a new deal. Now, Kirk, what precisely would you propose the Bengals do? Sign Kitna to a long-term deal as the starter. In that case, he's certainly not going to be taking a pay cut. And pushing the hit off into future years doesn't help because they already did that with Palmer. Even if he never plays a down his hit accellerates to more that $5 million in just a few years.

Or maybe we just let Kitna play this year out, in which case between him, Palmer and Matthews we have close to 10% of the cap tied up in the QB position. Suffice it to say I don't think we can afford much in the way of FA upgrades then -- and aren't you the one who keeps harping about the big improvements we need to make on D to have any chance at all? In any event, letting Kitna play as is only pushes the problem into the next offseason, when hell be a UFA. Chances are that Palmer starts in 2005 whether Kitna plays himself out of a job or not.

If its money that causes Palmer to start, then we're in for a long season and Mike Brown truly hasn't lessened his grip on the team, something I would be highly concerned about.  Which promotes something I believe is going to hurt football and that's huge salaries and signing bonuses for guys that hasn't played a down.  I'm still big on incentive based salaries rather than base salary.

Yup, yup, yup, aren't we all. But that isn't what we have, is it? And the question is, how do we deal with what we have.

I look at it this way, if Palmer is going to start, then he better set a new standard for Bengals quarterbacks, if not, he’s not worth it. BTW – if he only goes 8-8, just like Kitna last season, is everyone going to give him a free pass and say, well it was his first year?  I hope not, he’s being paid to do the job from the get-go and if he doesn’t answer immediately then I’m sure there will be a lot of retractors as there should be.

The above paragraph is at once so obvious and silly I don't know where to start. It's obvious because any top draft pick is expected to be a Pro Bowler. That comes with the territory: you we a top performer in college, you got drafted up front and paid big bucks for potential. In Palmer's case, noting less than actually becoming our franchise QB will do. At the same time, the statement is silly. Let's just revisit one piece of it:

BTW – if he only goes 8-8, just like Kitna last season, is everyone going to give him a free pass and say, well it was his first year?  I hope not,

So if his rookie season is only as good as Kitna's BEST YEAR EVER he's a failure??? :rolleyes: Great logic there, Kirk.

Palmer will throw more interceptions because he believes he has "better arm strength"  throwing a wire into an 8 inch window. 

Swami act part 1. With such amazing powers of precognition, what are you doing hanging around here? Vegas awaits!

Why not allow Kitna to fail -- if he’ll even do that -- and then let Palmer come in?

Because if he fails we waste another year and $4.4 million and if he succeeds we can't afford to keep him. Simple enough?

Just because Palmer was a first pick enables him to take over a franchise?  Just because Palmer makes tons of money enables him to take over a franchise?  Just because Palmer's arm strength allows him throw the ball further downfield enables him to take over franchise?  Just because Palmer has tons of potential enables him to take over a franchise?  Nothing here promotes a QB that will WIN games.

Being able to throw a better deep ball to one of the league's fastest receivers won't help win games? Growing potential with actual game experience won't help win games?

And don't get me started on "games that he lost", because he won a hellva lot more games on his arm than anyone else on this team.  If it wasn't for Kitna, we'd be a hellva lot more miserable with a 4-12 record with Palmer in and no hope at all.

Swami act part 2. The Great Kirkendall sees all, knows all. What did Mikey waste money on that Marvin Lewis guy for, anyhow? He should have hired Kirk . You have no justification for assuming we would have gone 4-12 with Palmer, and your refusal to consider Kitna's poor performance in our losses betrays your bias. Not to mention your thesis.

[Kirkendall]

The "wooshing" sound you just heard was that made by the point, passing far above Kirk's head. It isn't simply Palmer's salary that's the issue, Kirk, it's Palmer and Kitna's combined salaries that are the issue.

This isn't in response to you, is it? I'm referring to the fact that Kitna will not play because of money and politics, not on-field performance.. I do believe I said in the Quote you so alertly pointed out.

Or maybe we just let Kitna play this year out, in which case between him, Palmer and Matthews we have close to 10% of the cap tied up in the QB position.

Matthews is a UFA.

So if his rookie season is only as good as Kitna's BEST YEAR EVER he's a failure???  Great logic there, Kirk.

Don’t understand why you can’t support your patronization but let me expand on my thought anyway. With Palmer set to be the QB, and has an 8-8 record -- which is NOT Kitna’s best year, that was 9-7 -- what’s different? We are still 8-8. Some players take time to develop successful careers. Kitna’s game looks to be slowing down and his success last season suggests this. I mean, look at Rich Gannon, Jeff Garcia, Warren Moon or even Kurt Warner. They’ve all blossomed later in their careers and that’s something we should consider before knocking Kitna to the curb.

My point is some players take time to develop successful careers. Kitna’s game looks to be slowing down and his success last season suggests this.

Swami act part 1. With such amazing powers of precognition, what are you doing hanging around here? Vegas awaits!

Hum, not sure how to respond to this but okay.

Because if he fails we waste another year and $4.4 million and if he succeeds we can't afford to keep him. Simple enough?

If Palmer fails then what’s the difference? Kitna and his agent are already discussing a contract negotiation, we still lose the same amount of money. The defense gives up 24-25 points a game and we went 8-8? Well that's pretty damned good no matter who the QB is. I bring up Kansas City of 2002, Green had virtually the same stats as Kitna in 2003 yet the Chiefs defense ranked 28th overall and finished 8-8. They improved their defense and went 13-3. Now granted, their defense really isn’t that great, but their turnover margin helped them significantly to winning 13 times.

Regarding offensive problems -- which ranked 13th in the NFL -- I’m first to blame Brat for a lot of the offenses problems; I suggest this in other threads and not going back into it, yet you'll call me a Kitna loving hippy and biased, so it doesn't matter what I think. Does it?

Being able to throw a better deep ball to one of the league's fastest receivers won't help win games? Growing potential with actual game experience won't help win games?

You really think with Chad's growing potential is going to leave him consistently wide open on seam routes? There's no way! His production will drop on long passes, and Joisey, that's logic! Why would a defense, knowing Chad is a deep threat, allow him to gain mass yards on a play with our horrible tight end production and when the running backs didn't do much of anything but block on passing plays?

Swami act part 2. The Great Kirkendall sees all, knows all. What did Mikey waste money on that Marvin Lewis guy for, anyhow? He should have hired Kirk . You have no justification for assuming we would have gone 4-12 with Palmer, and your refusal to consider Kitna's poor performance in our losses betrays your bias. Not to mention your thesis.

Hummm, not sure how to respond to this either. I guess you have to insult people and be as condescending as possible to get your point home.

Let me just finish with this, I don't hate Palmer, I really don't. I'm not in love with Kitna either. I just hate seeing how quick most everyone is to dump on him. I think we should give him a lot more credit for what he has done for us. Sure he lost some games, but in those games we can't just attack him quickly without reflecting the whole game. A missed FG, horrible run defense; the whole team contributes to each loss.

Truce Joisey?

[HoosierCat]

Truce Joisey?

We were fighting?

I'm referring to the fact that Kitna will not play because of money and politics, not on-field performance.. I do believe I said in the Quote you so alertly pointed out.

I know. And my point is that the salary cap makes the idea that, only on-field performance should dictate who starts, impossible. Money that sits on the bench is by definition not helping you win games. In fact, by tying up excessive dollars, money on the bench actually hurts you by limiting you ability to sign quality FAs or retain your own players. This is why more and more teams now employ someone whose sole duty is to navigate the shoals and reefs of the salary cap. From reading your posts and articles, I know you understand this, so why do you argue the opposite here?

Some players take time to develop successful careers. Kitna’s game looks to be slowing down and his success last season suggests this. I mean, look at Rich Gannon, Jeff Garcia, Warren Moon or even Kurt Warner. They’ve all blossomed later in their careers and that’s something we should consider before knocking Kitna to the curb.

My point is some players take time to develop successful careers. Kitna’s game looks to be slowing down and his success last season suggests this.

Quite true, but as I said in my earlier post, drafting Carson Palmer made any amount of improvement on Jon Kitna's part moot. Look around: our starting safties are RFAs with lowball tenders; we have one decent, aging corner; we need a big run-stuffer at DT and/or DE; our starting C and RG are both getting advance mailings from the AARP (and our o-line depth blows); we've got that 3-headed hydra you hate at TE; and it looks like we're going to need at least a No. 2 RB, too. The bottom line is, we can't afford to pay starter's money to two QBs. No team can, not without giving up opportunities to improve elsewhere.

Does that suck for Kitna? Of course. But that's the reality imposed by a salary cap. And frankly, I'd rather have a cap than not (just look at baseball).

QUOTE

Swami act part 1. With such amazing powers of precognition, what are you doing hanging around here? Vegas awaits!

Hum, not sure how to respond to this but okay.

Well, go back and re-read your post. You accuse others of rushing to dump on Kitna, yet you completely dismiss any and all real or potential benefits of Palmer. The most positive thing you've said about him in two posts is "I don't hate Palmer." You don't just voice concerns he will struggle, you flatly declare he will fail -- right down to what he will be thinking when he tosses an INT. And you say that we should call for his removal if he doesn't "redefine the quarterback position" in his first year! Forgive me if such a comment raises both my hackles and my tendency toward sarcasm, but it was precisely that kind of attitude that contributed to the failure of our last two franchise QBs. Remember "we'll go as far as Akili can take us"?

QUOTE

Because if he fails we waste another year and $4.4 million and if he succeeds we can't afford to keep him. Simple enough?

If Palmer fails then what’s the difference? Kitna and his agent are already discussing a contract negotiation, we still lose the same amount of money.

If Palmer fails then we are completely phuqued for another five or six years (at least!). Even with Kitna. By my calculations, the earliest we could cut Palmer would be about 2006, and even then the hit from releasing him and the cost of keeping him are about the same. And all that money is his regardless of whether he takes a snap or not. Meanwhile, any new deal Kitna does will certainly include escalators that increase his pay should he regain the starting role. So in a Palmer fails/Kitna's back scenario, we're back to paying starting dollars to two QBs and shortchanging the rest of the team. And when we can finally unload Palmer, Kitna's 35 -- so we have to go draft another franchise QB!

The bottom line is that Kitna is no longer an option, except in case of injury. He will almost certainly be cut (or traded) if talks to restructure his contract fail (I don't expect they will). The only scenario under which I see a full-time return for Kitna as possible involve some sort of season- or career-ending injury for Palmer, which would allow the Bengals to seek cap relief by restructuring Palmer's deal or reaching an injury settlement.

The defense gives up 24-25 points a game and we went 8-8? Well that's pretty damned good no matter who the QB is. I bring up Kansas City of 2002, Green had virtually the same stats as Kitna in 2003 yet the Chiefs defense ranked 28th overall and finished 8-8. They improved their defense and went 13-3.

There are a number of issues I could raise here but let me just point out that if you want to do something similar in Cincy, you need money and cap space. Kitna costs $4.4 million this year. That'd go a long way toward a shutdown corner or monster run-stuffing DT.

Regarding offensive problems -- which ranked 13th in the NFL -- I’m first to blame Brat for a lot of the offenses problems; I suggest this in other threads and not going back into it, yet you'll call me a Kitna loving hippy and biased, so it doesn't matter what I think. Does it?

I wouldn't call you a Kitna-loving hippy, since I don't know if you're a hippy or not (are there still hippies?).

QUOTE

Being able to throw a better deep ball to one of the league's fastest receivers won't help win games? Growing potential with actual game experience won't help win games?

You really think with Chad's growing potential is going to leave him consistently wide open on seam routes? There's no way! His production will drop on long passes, and Joisey, that's logic! Why would a defense, knowing Chad is a deep threat, allow him to gain mass yards on a play with our horrible tight end production and when the running backs didn't do much of anything but block on passing plays?

No, that would be growing Palmer's potential with actual game experience. But never mind. The point here is that Chad is indeed going to be more closely covered and watched (if possible, remember, no one can cover CJ, at least according to him) whether the QB is Kitna, Palmer, or Katie bloody Blackburn!. How can the fact that Chad can now run full-out, without have to worry about coming back to the ball all the time or getting lucky bounces off Ed Reed's shoulder pads, because Carson can launch the ball the length of the field and let him run under it, be a bad thing? If opposing defenses have to commit more to covering the deep ball -- and with Palmer behind center they will -- this will free things up closer to the line, not harm them. It's a recipe for play-action.

Let me just finish with this, I don't hate Palmer, I really don't. I'm not in love with Kitna either. I just hate seeing how quick most everyone is to dump on him. I think we should give him a lot more credit for what he has done for us.

And I don't hate Kitna. And I wish it didn't have to be like this. Like I said, there are no good answers to the problem -- just the answer that was inevitable the day we chose Palmer.

[WHO DEY AGAIN?]

Man you guys need to lighten up!

No I'm just kidding. I love a heated debate. I wanted to throw my 2 cents in. I think Marvin making the move now is the smart move. We can sign Kitna to back ups $$$ and Carson has more time to prepare as the #1 guy. Plus this is not written in stone. Marvin can go with Kitna at anytime and with Jon he knows what he has and knows how he will perform. With Carson it's a different story and we need to find out what this kid is made of.

Money plays a big part here and was the driving force in this move but I look at it this way. We are in way better shape than we were a few years back. In the end the best guy at that given time will play.

[Kirkendall]

Joisey, I see your points now. At the start I thought you came off very smug against me and it put me on the defensive (but I guess I did come off very aggressive -- I had a really bad weekend so my bad attitude is still lingering I guess

I think a lot of points we agree, but for different reasons. I've always been in the, well what you have you done before kind of guy and a lot of times the potential discussion doesn't go too far with me. It's nothing against any of you guys, or even Palmer; I'm just so tired of hearing potential in the Bengals camp and they not delivering results. While I'm less likely to suggest anyone has or doesn't have potential, I will say that Palmer does have a world of potential and I'll completely agree there.

I guess when Palmer shows his abilities in the regular season, I'm sure my tone will change dramatically. I just need substance before I can put all of my energies into someone.

You know what else, we have WAY too many threads for the Kitna vs. Palmer debate. SHESH!

[HoosierCat]

Don't sweat it, Kirk, I have a tendency to post first and think later, myself .

As a general rule, I'll take the proven product over the potential one any time. But in this case -- like so many others -- the sins of Bungals Past linger on. Palmer's selection is a direct result of our being stuck with the No. 1 pick last April, which in turn was a direct result of a dozen years of foulups, bleeps, and blunders at the QB position, culminating in the Frerotte disaster of '02.

The age of helplessism may be over, but it ended with the team in a deep hole, and we're still climbing out. Unfortunately for Kitna, the current rung on the ladder happens to be his head, through no real fault of his own. Let's just hope that Palmer is all he's been cracked up to be; if he isn't, were most likely going to end up back on our asses on the bottom of that hole again.

[kevnz]

You know what else, we have WAY too many threads for the Kitna vs. Palmer debate. SHESH!

You think it's bad now? Wait till Palmer loses for the first time cause he screwed up...it's gonna happen, hell it happens to every QB....Remember, the most popular player on a losing team is the backup QB....

[chrishcovga]

This is a move that had to be made. We all Know that Kitna thows like a girl in fastpitch softball. Sure he can Throw the ball 40 yards...in stride..??? but most of the times his receivers have to wait on the ball...or 40 yards is all he could heave..

As for the rest of the team.. I have to think that Lewis wants his defense to catch up with the offense, no matter who is quarterbacking..

Personally, after watching those Palmer games from preseason '03..( not that i have taped them because that would be wrong and illegal ) I like what he was able to do.... and who could forget that PBS premier 7 of 7 for 97 yards and 2 touchdowns. He even made T.J. Houshmanzadeh look good.