The Official "Trade Rudi Johnson in the Offseason" Thread

[Benzoo]

First, let me just say that I absolutely love Rudi Johnson. He's a workhorse, a bowling ball with rubberized edges that bounces off tacklers and makes yards where none are readily available. I'd rank him third in the pantheon of great Bengals runners of the past. He's been a tremendous player, and a solid citizen (besides that whole showing up late for stuff thing). In his short tenure as the feature back of the Cincinnati attack, he already owns the season rushing record, as well as the record for most carries in a single game. No offensive coordinator can ask for more than what he's already given.

Problem is, as has been evident this season, the offensive scheme seems to have passed him by. We've seen fewer carries per game, as well as yards and touchdowns. A large chunk of his would be carries are being given to the young, spry, and heretofore unfairly maligned Chris Perry. Let's face it, the kid's shown us a versatility not seen since the days of James Brooks. Not only has he shown a slashing downhill running style, he's made himself a major factor in this team's passing attack. He's already eclipsed the thirty catch plateau in just an eight game stretch. That's Michael Westbrook with a more effective running style territory.

In short, we're watching the birth of what could be an absolute star.

I think the coaching staff knows it, and I think Rudi might know it. We've already heard a small amount of grumbling, and if this team had a few more losses, what we see as grumbling now, might have played out like a full fledged roar.

Something needs to be done this offseason. It's not fair to Rudi, and it's not fair to Chris.

To me, trading Chris Perry is absolutely out of the question, and considering the relatively short shelf life of the average NFL running back, Rudi makes the most sense. He's still young enough to help a club like the New York Jets, who will be needing to replace Curtis Martin in short order. He'll be entering his twelfth season next year, and has already showed signs of aging. Regardless of where Rudi would end up, he could easily garner at least a second round pick to go along with the wiggle room to sign free agents his salary relief would provide. He'd be a huge upgrade to a team like the Jets, and he would undoubtedly be huge help to a team likely to be starting a less than average quarterback.

The time to for the Bengals to actively shop Rudi will be any time prior and up to draft day, no sooner. He can help this club make a run in the now, and he can help this club remain competitive in the future when he's traded. He's been one of the most valuable commoditities in this club's history.

[CJBestInAFC]

I agree with trading Rudi. He is good, but is the easiest player to replace on offense through the draft. I hope the Bengals go after Michael Bush from Louisville. He is a monster running the ball and would be more effective running the ball up the middle than Rudi. Bush is also around 250 pounds. I think Perry could start next year and let Bush back him up. I do believe the Bengals could get atleast a second round pick for Rudi.

[El dubaya]

you're both out of your minds.

[PMThor]

you're both out of your minds.

X2. What in the Hell are you guys thinking? We let Corey go because we had Rudi. He is solid, not spectacular for sure, but teams have to respect our running game because of him. If we traded Rudi we would have to either waste a pick on a new running back who is unproven in the NFL, or trade for a proven back. Either way we will shell out big big bucks which we cannot afford to do. Rudi is good for 80-100 yards a game. Plus he is the perfect balance to Chris Perry and our passing game. He fits perfectly into our system. Why take something away that is working so well? Jeez. Hey, trade Palmer his trade value is really high right now too.....

[BlackJesus]

[Stripes]

While I disagree with this notion, the thread is not bad. These guys are giving perfectly logical reasons why they feel this way, and not DPMing the situation.

[walshfan]

I agree its not out of the question to think about the future of our running game...

My worries with Perry concern his ability to be effective running it between the tackles.. I havent seen enough of that to form any kind of opinion..

Rudi's style is pretty much one dimensional and while it's effective I wonder if Marvin and Co, think its worth the money they're paying him?

They wont let Johnson go before there's no doubt that Perry can be a workhorse on at least have a power back their content with in short run situations at a lesser price.

[HoosierCat]

Two words: cap hit.

The 5-year deal Rudi signed earlier this year had a reported $12 million in guarantees. Exactly how those boni are structured I don't know, but I doubt the cap charge for trading Rudi next year would be any less than $8 million. Probably more like $9-$10 million.

Whether it's a good idea or not is immaterial. Cap says it can't happen.

[Benzoo]

Two words: cap hit.

The 5-year deal Rudi signed earlier this year had a reported $12 million in guarantees. Exactly how those boni are structured I don't know, but I doubt the cap charge for trading Rudi next year would be any less than $8 million. Probably more like $9-$10 million.

Whether it's a good idea or not is immaterial. Cap says it can't happen.

Good point, but teams trade players with contracts/bonuses all of the time, and they hire capologists that make things like this work.

How does that usually happen? I'm asking because I really, honsetly don't know. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around of some of the salary cap minutae.

[HoosierCat]

Good point, but teams trade players with contracts/bonuses all of the time, and they hire capologists that make things like this work.

How does that usually happen? I'm asking because I really, honsetly don't know. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around of some of the salary cap minutae.

Trading players is actually a fairly rare occurance in the NFL, precisely because of the cap. Most trades involve low-level guys who don't have the big-bucks contracts & bonuses (i.e. team A trades 3rd string LB to team B for a 5th round pick or something like that). The Clinton Portis-Champ Bailey type deals are pretty rare, and usually happen only late in contracts of the players involved, after their signing bonuses have already been prorated over most of the life of the contract. In a couple years, the cap hit for dealing Rudi should be down around the $4-5 million range, which would likely be about the same as his salary plus prorated bonus (in other words, the cost of keeping him and letting him go are about the same), so at that point anything is possible.

[dcbengal1]

Hey guys, two words:

Kijana Carter!

Rudi's key asset has been his DURABILITY. Perry is coming off hernia surgery and his ability to play a full game has not been tested in the least. Plus I agree about his up the middle running.

Plus there's something to be said about continuity and familiarity. It's no coincidence that teams like Dallas had stability at all major offensive positions. If you want to gripe about something on this team, it's lack of a true third down pass catching TE ala Jay Novaceck--or even harking back to Bengals of old, Dan Ross (who still is tied with the super bowl record for most pass receptions I think).

It's true Johnson has been disappointing on short yardage and red zone situations, esp for his size and running style, and everyone knows he's not a passing threat. Who knows if that's something he could improve on at this stage. Rudi's never going to be the high flyer TD ala Marcus Allen so we'll have to find other ways to get it done. But taking a gamble on a draft pick of FA would not be preferred at this stage.

[walshfan]

After reading Joisey's comments I have to agree that Rudi will be here for awhile and I have no problem with that.. If his ypc ave was in the low or mid 3's Id be concerned but he does whats expected of him.

As for a pass catching TE on third downs... Im all for it.. Im personally tired of this rhetoric about we use TE's for blocking purposes and it doesnt fit in our offensives schemes...

Why not? It seems to work pretty well for teams that have good TE's..

If there's a tight end with a high chart value on the board when they pick in the second or third round it wouldnt surprise me to see them grab him.. Im talking about someone like Leonard Pope (Georgia)

or someone of that abililty....

Ive allready seen allot of mock drafts that have us taking Mercedes Lewis out of UCLA so apparently these draft gurus think the same thing... Browns, Ravens and Steelers have solidified their TE position..Its time we did the same.....

[HoosierCat]

As for a pass catching TE on third downs... I all for it.. Im personally tired of theis rhetoric about we use TE's for blocking purposes and it doesnt fit in our offensives schemes...

The "place" of the receiving TE in the Bengals offense is being occupied by Chris Perry right now, similar to the way it was held by Peter Warrick. In situations where you might expect a toss to the TE, the Bengals will often look to the slot receiver, or to pass to the RB coming out of the backfield. A couple years back, this meant a throw in either Warrick's direction (out of the slot) or to Dillon (out of the backfield). Now you see Perry lining up in both places. That's why he spends 1/2 his practice time with the WRs, and also, I think, why we've seen relatively little of Kevin Walter despite his early-season heroics.

[Scottishbengal]

Something needs to be done this offseason. It's not fair to Rudi, and it's not fair to Chris.

B0ll0cks - they both take they pay check each week and they both do what job the coach requires of them - that seems fair enough to me. Whatever it takes to get a winning season, a divisional crown, a conference title and a superbowl is fine by me, and no doubt if we pull off the big one it'll be fine with the players too.

[bengalboomer7]

I would also like to add that with the division we're in Rudi is an asset.

That salary cap always squelches these fantasty football type trades

[bengalskyspy]

First, let me just say that I absolutely love Rudi Johnson. He's a workhorse, a bowling ball with rubberized edges that bounces off tacklers and makes yards where none are readily available. I'd rank him third in the pantheon of great Bengals runners of the past. He's been a tremendous player, and a solid citizen (besides that whole showing up late for stuff thing). In his short tenure as the feature back of the Cincinnati attack, he already owns the season rushing record, as well as the record for most carries in a single game. No offensive coordinator can ask for more than what he's already given.

Problem is, as has been evident this season, the offensive scheme seems to have passed him by. We've seen fewer carries per game, as well as yards and touchdowns. A large chunk of his would be carries are being given to the young, spry, and heretofore unfairly maligned Chris Perry. Let's face it, the kid's shown us a versatility not seen since the days of James Brooks. Not only has he shown a slashing downhill running style, he's made himself a major factor in this team's passing attack. He's already eclipsed the thirty catch plateau in just an eight game stretch. That's Michael Westbrook with a more effective running style territory.

In short, we're watching the birth of what could be an absolute star.

I think the coaching staff knows it, and I think Rudi might know it. We've already heard a small amount of grumbling, and if this team had a few more losses, what we see as grumbling now, might have played out like a full fledged roar.

Something needs to be done this offseason. It's not fair to Rudi, and it's not fair to Chris.

To me, trading Chris Perry is absolutely out of the question, and considering the relatively short shelf life of the average NFL running back, Rudi makes the most sense. He's still young enough to help a club like the New York Jets, who will be needing to replace Curtis Martin in short order. He'll be entering his twelfth season next year, and has already showed signs of aging. Regardless of where Rudi would end up, he could easily garner at least a second round pick to go along with the wiggle room to sign free agents his salary relief would provide. He'd be a huge upgrade to a team like the Jets, and he would undoubtedly be huge help to a team likely to be starting a less than average quarterback.

The time to for the Bengals to actively shop Rudi will be any time prior and up to draft day, no sooner. He can help this club make a run in the now, and he can help this club remain competitive in the future when he's traded. He's been one of the most valuable commoditities in this club's history.

Where do you get your facts? Rudi is still getting more touches than virtually anyone in the league. I really love CP, but he hasn't shown much in the running game yet.

[alleycat]

If last year's draft and FA market was any indication, there's no way we'd get a second rounder for Rudi. This year's running backs may not be as deep in the draft, but still no way. If people weren't willing to give it up for Shaun Alexander and Edgerrin James, they aren't going to give it up for Rudi. Although I do agree that it would be amazing to get someone like Bush in here.

[NYBengalfan]

This is a horrible thought, he's a beast. Why would you trade the man who leads the NFL in rushing yards after first hit. I would never get rid of him, he's a fan favorite.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Yeah obviously no one trades a player this early into a long term, big $ deal. It won't happen.

And frankly I have no problem paying it to a 1300+ type back who doesn't fumble and is durable as hell for his style.

Perry will only help prolong Rudi's career.

RB's get hurt a lot too, it's nice to have 2 effective ones that can be a feature back in a pinch...not just some scrawny 3rd down speedster like Watson.

I wish the Bengals would heavily address some other areas of the team rather than WR and RB next year.

Having all those guys doesn't mean nearly as much when you can't block for them or get your defense off the field.

[HairOnFire]

Reading this thread reminded me of when I used to have goldfish. Specifically, the times when I'd stand infront of the fish tank and wonder if I should feed the little guys flake food or treat them with a cube of tubifex worms. If I recall correctly I'd usually just give them a pinch of flake food because too often I'd seen where one goldfish would just swallow the worm cube whole...leaving the other goldfish without a meal. That bothered me more than I can say. Later, after having fish for a few years, I realized what a waste of time it was thinking about such things.

For the record, I no longer have fish...completely eliminating this type of mental turmoil. Thus, I sleep very well now.

BTW, great thread. In fact, I've often wondered why there weren't more threads about fish on these boards.

[Spain]

Rudi isnt getting it with me either, however he is not going anywhere. You just cant trade a guy you just signed. I would like to see boobie williams sent packing. We could use that first rounder on a gaurd.

[Benzoo]

Excellent responses, all.

I was just kicking the thought around in my head after some late night drinking.

I especially agree with Joisey's take about maybe waiting a year or two.

Someone also brought up the point that Perry's catches make up for a lack of a pass catching tight end. Couldn't agree more.

[AMC]

I find it hard to see Perry as your #1 guy in the AFC North.....but it could happen I guess....I don't think trading Rudi is a serious possiblility....gotta have TWO quality backs IMO....

[DontPushMe]

I find it hard to see Perry as your #1 guy in the AFC North.....

The best team in the AFC north starts the smallest RB in the AFC north. Stop it with this we need a power rb for this division crap.

As for rudi, hes probly not going anywhere, at least for the next 2 years. Its something Ive learned to accept. I dont think he will be here after 06, but the way his contract is structured, we are stuck with him until then. Most of the signing bonus gets taken during the first couple years, for year 3 his salary jumps up from 1M a year to 3M per year. Thats when i expect him to be traded or cut.

[derekshank]

Good point DPM, with Wille Parker... but you're forgetting about their change of pace back in Bettis. Without Bettis, they would not be the best team in the AFC north. If we get rid of Rudi, we will finally be what most people already think we are... and that is a finesse offense with no physical brute strength.

One of the main reasons the Colts couldn't get past the Pats the past two years was that the only running play that works for them is that stretch play. Edge isn't a short yardage "between the tackles" back, so on 3rd and 1, they throw it every time. If we get rid of our power back in Rudi, that is the situation we will be in.

I believe Perry can run between the tackles... but he is not a Bettis/Rudi type of back who will break tackles, and hit you in the mouth. He is a "make you miss" sort of back... so it seems wise to have a short yardage back other than Perry.

Are we paying Rudi too much to be simply a short yardage back? Absolutely... but that is the price you pay to make sure you have a RB that will be productive. Perry hadn't proven himself yet, so this is the plight we find ourselves in.

I don't think our problems on defense have anything to do with signing Rudi. We still had money available to sign Simon... and are still significantly below the cap, so Rudi's big contract didn't keep us from signing anyone. Trading Rudi isn't the solution to that problem... and if our biggest problem on offense is that we have two RB's that would start for most NFL teams, then we're doing okay.

I for one though don't buy the RB in place of the receiving TE argument though... because you can't run the play action play and toss it to a RB as successfully as to a TE. (see the Heath Miller TD against us).