Please explain why the Bengals can't stop run.

[schweinhart]

I did have the patience and stomach to watch the tape of the Steelers game and there was one glaring problem. Our front 4 can NOT get off blocks. That is consistent with what I've seen a few of you say -- i.e. we are NOT good enough up front.

In contrast the Steelers were able to slip our blocks and make tackles.

Marvin may be right that smaller, quick Defensive lineman are better than fat, slugs -- BUT those "quick, smaller" lineman MUST be able to get off blocks and make plays.

If we draft or get a D-lineman in FA, we must get one that can get off blocks and then make plays.

No doubt, Pap. Can't get off blocks, can't do much. And the smaller they go inside the easier they are to move unless they can use that quickness or rely on stunts to avoid the block to begin with.

That all goes back to personnel and while there is obviously a great big bunch of room to upgrade the front 4, it's clear to me that they're better off this year than last w/ Tony Williams and then Langston Moore in there. And they'd be better off w/ Shaun Smith active instead of Carl Powell.

As bad as the totals ended up being vs. the Steelers, the numbers up to the 24-6 count basically reflect 2 busted plays: the disastrous 37-yd TD run by Parker and the 15-yd jaunt by Bettis on 3rd and 2. Take out those 2 and the Bengals run D gave up 88 yds on 25 attempts if I got the numbers right.

The Parker run sucked some life out of the Bengals, just 3 plays after the Steelers 2nd pick. I do not have the desire or stomach to watch that crap again but what I'm seeing now in my mind is is a stretch run cut upfield w/ Odell flying into view about 2 steps too late because he has to go around Landon Johnson and Duane Clemons who are both standing there unblocked and close enough to each other to play patty cake. Then I see a very, very fast Ohalete come flying into view having taken the perfect angle to meet Parker 12 yds downfield only to mistackle by diving pads first at Parker's ankles instead of hitting him higher or wrapping him up.

But obviously the run D problems are deeper than 1 or 2 bad plays...still, I don't see it being as bad as last year. Could it be better with better personnel? Sure. However, there's some things happening on it that I like. Odell stood up to Bettis and took his feet out a few times when he shot gaps. Ohalete can flat out move in pursuit but he's missed a couple open field tackles in the backfield and now this big TD -- he's just got to wrap up. Justin Smith is still strong w/ backside pursuit when he sheds his blocker. And even John Thornton showed me something on a double team when he looked like he was about to crumple w/ his head bent backward and his knees wobbly but he stayed standing.

I think there's enough heart and ability there to contain most teams on the ground. The key word is contain, which is another reason why the best explanation why the Bengals can't stop the run is that they don't run it enough on offense. It's time to start running Rudi up people's nose.

[kingwilly]

Schweiny, you are correct that the personnel is not up to snuff. The rush total for Pitt was 221 on 47 rushes for a 4.7 avg. Take out the long from Parker and Bettis and it goes to 168 on 45 for a 3.8 avg. statistically it may look good but the bottom line was that they yielded the big/timely plays for a reason...mis-execution by a squad that is, in some spots, young, under-talented, or not the starter.

To your point about Justin Smith, I think I have him figured. The blocker releases him when the play goes the other way nearly every time. Justin runs after the play and sometimes even gets an assist. Good motor and desire. But the other thing is that he slows down and is not effective when the play is right at him. What happened to the whole, "rotate him so he's more effective" idea?

[HoosierCat]

Well, Derek, we have three questions to answer here. The first is, what's the impact of a rookie DT? Let's take a look at the first-year performances of the day 1 tackles from the last 3 drafts (note: includes NT but excludes college DT who were converted to DE in the NFL).

2005

Travis Johnson Texans 12 tackles 13/32

Mike Patterson Eagles 14 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 FF 16/10

Jonathan Babineaux Falcons 6 tackles 9/22

Sione Pouha Jets 1 tackle 5/29

2004

Tommie Harris Bears 43 tackles, 3.5 sacks 16/25

Vince Wilfork Patriots 42 tackles, 2 sacks, 3 PDs 4/6

Marcus Tubbs Seahawks 13 tackles, 1 sack, 1 PD, 1 FF 14/23

Junior Siavii Chiefs 8 tackles, 1 sack 30/12

Terry Johnson Bears 9 tackles, 0.5 sacks 16/25

Dwan Edwards Ravens 1 tackle 6/8

Randy Starks Titans 28 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 2 PD, 1 FF 1/18

Donnell Washington Packers did not play 10/14

Tim Anderson Bills 0 tackles 8/7

2003

Dewayne Robertson Jets 43 tackles, 1.5 sacks 18/28

Johnathan Sullivan Saints 33 tackles, 1 sack, 1 PD, 1 FF 19/27

William Joseph Giants 5 tackles, 1 sack 16/18

Anthony Adams 49ers 26 tackles, 1.5 sacks, 4 PD 7/9

To give some perspective, let's take a look at the numbers of the Bengals' two lead DTs from last season:

John Thornton 57 tackles, 3 sacks, 4 PDs

Bryan Robinson 41 tackles, 4 PDs

As you can see, only a handful of rookie DTs would come close to their numbers. Arguably none would constitute a significant upgrade. No doubt many have and will improve, but as I said before, we're talking about immediate impact, not "for the future" stuff.

The final set of numbers after each pick is particularly relevant to the Bengals' case. The represent the team's rush defense the year prior to drafting the player, and the rush D the player's rookie season. For example, the Jets rush D ranked 18th in 2002, then with Dewayne Robertson in his rookie year in 2003, ranked 28th. As you'll note, the team's rushing defense falls in nearly every case.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't draft one or more DTs (again as I suggested earlier). Certainly we have little enough in the way of future DTs on the shelf, except Askew, who appears to be going nowhere fast. But the chances of that player significantly upgrading our D, and specifically our run D, in 2006 fall into the category of "slim to none."

The second question to ask is, does signing a top-tier FA DT improve your defense? In 2004, the Vikings ranked 21st against the run, Dallas ranked 10th, and the Colts ranked 24th. The Vikes picked up Pat Williams in the offseason, Dallas signed Jason Ferguson, while the Colts got Corey Simon. The Colts improved to 16th so far, the 'Boys to 7th, and the Vikes dropped to 30th. I like those odds much better than the ones found in the rookies' case.

The third question is, will there be such a player available? We'll have to see, but I expect so; there always is. Whether the Bengals will make the move remains to be seen.

[schweinhart]

Schweiny, you are correct that the personnel is not up to snuff. The rush total for Pitt was 221 on 47 rushes for a 4.7 avg. Take out the long from Parker and Bettis and it goes to 168 on 45 for a 3.8 avg. statistically it may look good but the bottom line was that they yielded the big/timely plays for a reason...mis-execution by a squad that is, in some spots, young, under-talented, or not the starter.

To your point about Justin Smith, I think I have him figured. The blocker releases him when the play goes the other way nearly every time. Justin runs after the play and sometimes even gets an assist. Good motor and desire. But the other thing is that he slows down and is not effective when the play is right at him. What happened to the whole, "rotate him so he's more effective" idea?

I hear you on the game totals. My point there is that the totals up to the point where the Bengals went down 24-6 was 25 carries for 88 yards minus the Parker TD and the Bettis 15 yarder. The 24-6 count being the point where the defense found itself really backed up hard against the wall (but still only gave up 3 more pts.)

I would have hoped much more from Justin sackwise from LDE. That would be my main gripe with him. 4-3 DEs are prone to be straight-at run targets because they're giving up heft to the tackles and they can get split between the gap and the outside w/o having the muscle to dictate where the tackle goes unless it's by virtue of technique. The main thing there would be not to get blown out for a cutback lane or pinned inside to allow the bounce out. But his backside pursuit is much quicker than most and does factor into tackles regardless of how he gets there. I like him a lot for that, and I'd love to see him play OLB in a 3-4 some where he could stand instead of start down and could better use his quickness for more leverage to pass rush.

[BengalszoneBilly]

This is absolute BULLSH*T and anyone that thinks differently is full of SH*T. We talked about the defense during the off season and after the draft and the one thing that came up was how will our run defense work out ?? I guess we have seen how well that has worked out after going against teams that actually have a running game and (get this) DON'T SUCK... Jacksonville and P-Burg ran our ass*s over, period. I for one am sick to death over hearing about its not just the front four. F**K you it's not the front four...

Damn Mark. I wish you would quit holding back on us. Stop beating around the bush and tell us what you really think! I'm kidding, but only because I fully understand where you're coming from. We're both military oriented (with you in the Army, and myself a former Marine) and have no patience for slackers who consistently screw up time and time again. The Bengals current defensive line has a number of players who are simply lacking in either ability, size, desire, physical strength or all of those things to be able to play even adequate run defense in the NFL.

It's a D**N shame we have to rely on our safeties to say we can stop the run and when Madieu is done for the year, we just pack it in. That was a F**KING embarrassment of an effort...

Actually I'm with with you 100% on this. It's a symptom of that ridiculous "Bend But Don't Break'" bulls**t defensive scheme too many foolish people here love and buy into. If your teams #1 safety goes out with an injury, and only then you start worrying about how the team will ever stop the run now, you just don't know when it's time to start worrying! If the opposing runners are REGULARLY getting so deep into the backfield that your defensive backs are your primary run stoppers, you've got far bigger problems than an injured safety!

Personally I can't believe John Thornton is still starting!! He has sucked major d**k when it came to stopping the run since the day he got here. In fact I consider him one of the hinges in the Bengals "Swinging Gate" defensive line. So what if he has a lot of tackles? It doesn't change the fact that he, as well as the rest of the Cincinnati defensive linemen are NOT DOING THEIR JOBS AND ARE CONSISTENTLY "BENDING AND BREAKING" against the leagues better teams.

I've been a fan for over 30 years now, have seen the good and the bad, and am not about to go anywhere now, BUT this S**T has gone on long enough. STOP THE F**KING RUN !!! Holy S**T, I don't even know any other words to describe my irritation at this point. F**K F**K F**K !!!!!!!

Anything but WHODEY at this moment !!!

Which has me wondering about this: Why is it that Marvin Lewis helps in/directs the creation of some damn good defenses in Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Washington in relatively short periods of time in each case. These glimpses of past successes then has me asking this question:

What is taking so long in here in Cincy?!?

[walshfan]

For the past two years the Bengals have consistently ignored anything resembling a decent DT or LB in free agency,

Hell Joisey, it's not just in the free agent market, where I can understand the difficulties in getting someone to want to come and take a chance on playing in Cincy. They've ignored it in the draft as well! They instead went after undersized "speedy" defensive "specialists," or pieces for a high powered offense that don't get you diddly squat without a defense that can stop the run once in a Blue moon!

Marvin better realize he just may have a slight flaw in his "Oh-So-Wonderful" Master plan for building a winner in Cincy! I don't care what he believes. This isn't rocket science, just some simple physics:

Smaller and Faster just doesn't work at every position in this game of football!! Sometimes Bigger and Slower is the answer. Why do you think a .45 caliber slug has more knockdown power than the smaller and faster 9mm round? Same thing! Figure it out Marv...

I think back to how John Thornton said that they didn't need Corey Simon.

And I remember Mr. Robinson making the big claim upon his arrival here in the off season:

"We ARE going to stop the run!!" STFU if you're not going to back it the f**k up!

One of the bests posts in recent times!!!! Your right on....In Marvin We Trust seems to indicate offense anymore.. The defense has been overlooked imo... It starts in the trenches....It allways has...

We addressed our offensive line and they make the offense go... We havent done that with the defensive line and we are getting hammered.... If this years draft doesnt provide us with a blue chip DT and possibly a veteran FA DT then its not going to change a thing as far as teams running it downour throats...

[w^rl0rd]

Lets not forget, our D is 2nd-to-last in the NFL in sacks too.

Of course, that's another post. Is it me or should the front

four be replaced completely?

However, I will give Marvin credit for fixing what used to be an obvious

problem....our secondary, but how long will they stay healthy if they

have to come up and make tackles on big guys like the BUS?

[alleycat]

I don't see that anyone has mentioned this yet. David Pollack started at SSLB (not DE) against the Steelers. Before he was hurt in the second quarter, we were stopping the run cold.

[walzav29]

I really don't recall one minute that they were stopping the run cold. I was drunk though. Can anyone else testify to this?

[bengalboomer7]

How bout on Carson's first INt when they took it to the ten. Stuffed them three and out on that one. Personally, i think the D did pretty good. The offense let them down throughout the whole game. It was 7-6 at half and shouldn't of been that way. The way the offense playeed allowed the Steelers to pound it out. I mean, cheeseburger only threw 14 passes, for not even 100 yards. But all you hear on TV is "Cheeseburger leads Steelers to victory." Kirk has it right, you gottta blame everyone,

[walzav29]

They are in a tough spot for the next 2 games. If they win it will be against crappy competition. If they lose it's because they are the Bungles. Is Pollack playing?

[Stripes]

I think crappy competition is just what the doctor ordered for the Bengals. Neither of our next two opponents has run the ball very well this season, and that is all we need to hear. We can let our offense get back in shape against a very bad Packers defense, and again against a good Ravens defense that doesn't play as well against us.

[kingwilly]

To be perfectly frank about Pollack: I watched the game as closely as anyone. I clearly saw Odell flying around, Ohalete trying to make plays, KK stepping up when the runner got tyo the second level but I can hardly recall a down when Pollack had an impact, either by making the tackle or by forcing a play using alignment or leverage. To me, he disappears once on the field, certainly not the same energy or speed he displayed in college. Part of the learning curve, sure, but we are nearing the midway mark. Time to produce...

Funny, how we actually spent time discussing cool nicknames for him a while back...should never go any further than "freaking rookie".

[Indycat]

IMO the problem is more coaching than personel.

Jay Hayes has never coached a D-Line at any level.

With his coaching the run defense has ranked 24th in 2003, 26th in 2004, and 27th currently.

J. Thornton started for a Titan team that ranked 2nd against the run in 2002

B. Robinson started for a Bears team that ranked 2nd against the run in 2001

J. Smith started for a Bengals team that ranked 11th against the run in 2001

Our lineman seem to wrestle with their blockers rather than putting all their effort into shedding the blocks and getting upfield and if they do make the tackle the runner is already 3 yards past the line of scimage.

Jay Hayes and his brother Jonathan(TE coach) are Pittsburg buddies of ML and IMO are the weakest links on the coaching staff.

[Whur CHad At?]

JON THORTON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stripes]

J. Thornton started for a Titan team that ranked 2nd against the run in 2002

B. Robinson started for a Bears team that ranked 2nd against the run in 2001

J. Smith started for a Bengals team that ranked 11th against the run in 2001

Jay Hayes and his brother Jonathan(TE coach) are Pittsburg buddies of ML and IMO are the weakest links on the coaching staff.

You present good points here. Still, on the teams mentioned above, I think the current Bengals were the weak links on those lines. Now that Thornton and Robinson are together, their worth or lack thereof is moe likely to be exposed. I think the 2001 Bengals run defense was an abberation, and part in thanks to Takeo. As far as your coaching comments, I am in agreement.