Run Defense

[Stripes]

Last night's game was the first this year in which penalties weren't our worst enemy. We still had 12 of them, and that is way too many. While the rediculous penalty number took a small dip, the run defense became the real issue it has been threatening to be. Fred Taylor finished the game with 23 carries for 132 yards at an average of 5.5 yards per carry. This stat line looks eerily familiar to the ones we were seeing last season and the season before.

It seemed like everytime they gave the ball to Taylor, we'd be able to contain the play at the line of scrimmage, but every linebacker, including experienced Brian Simmons kept overpursuing, and Taylor could just cut back and run through open field. Geathers had another bad game, as did John Thornton. I know this is to be expected from such a young defense, but it will still have to improve and soon. If we continue to have similar mistakes on defense against the run, then the Steelers will walk all over us.

What did you all see in last night's game that may have caused this? I am to assume that many factors would contribute to such an abysmal performance overall.

[CBin2k7]

I saw exactly what you saw. It seemed to be a lot of over pursuit by the LB's.

What was interesting is I think that the Bengals were not prepared for the Taylor cut backs, It seems as if he always got to the line, and then he cut back into open area and ran for 8-12 yds. Hopefully they will look at the tape and start to keep a DE on the back side, and with experience Odell can learn to hit the open gaps instead of running into blocks.

I also think Madieu makes a big difference in that game last night because of his ability to tackle and read running plays.

I hope it will get fixed

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Don't worry, Fred Taylor is one of the shiftiest backs in the league. Most of the guys we will face this year are straight runners. Madieu out hurt too. Our young guys overpursued. Marvin will fix it.

[Spain]

Its sjould have been a lot better but water boys ego got in the way!

[Benzoo]

Madieu's definitely a difference maker, but the trenches looked like a rugby scrum out there.

Fred Taylor would run towards the pile, the linebackers would join the scrum and Taylor would bounce outside. It was like watching the same replays over and over.

What is it about the Bengals the turns Fred Taylor into Jim Brown?

I swear, every other week he'e either a non factor, or he's injured.

[Stripes]

Fred Taylor would run towards the pile, the linebackers would join the scrum and Taylor would bounce outside. It was like watching the same replays over and over.

Exactly, and was painful to watch. I can understand some overpursuit by the young guys, but this was more than that. They were failing in the fundamentals of linebacking all game long. It didn't help much that the safeties had to blitz so often, and missed at least 5 tackles in the backfield.

[TJJackson]

Ah, good to see that there is finally some talk of the run defense as a weakness....I've been pointing this out for weeks and been dismissed....

[duus]

To answer the question directly ... yes.

A few more run stops ... heck, a lot more run stops ... and the game is different.

[schweinhart]

I think we'll see more of those cutbacks by Chris Brown next week. He runs a lot more straight up than Taylor but has got enough quickness to get it outside. After the Titans watch the tape, it's hard to think they won't come out trying to bounce left.

It wasn't just Jumpy Jr. that got sucked into the scrum -- it was all the DEs who lined up there including Pollack and Justin Smith. I don't know that Big Duane would be any better but hard to imagine that he'd be much.......no, wait....it's not hard to imagine that he'd be much worse on the contain. But it is looking like Big Duane does offer more at DT on pass rush than Jumpy...and maybe more than Pollack at RDE at this point.

The LB flow outside absolutely vanished, though. Better LB play by Thurman and Simmons and the safety not getting pinned to the outside or whiffing outright would go a long way to making the DE contain outside more manageable. Another thing missing was Justin Smith's backside pursuit from the other end. Usually he makes tracks to get in on the play across the field. Didn't see that happening last night.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Run defense has been inconsistent-to-bad all year long, just like last season. Simmons looked horrible and Thurman had his first bad game, along with the safeties they got sucked up in the blocking schemes and never adjusted to the cut backs Taylor was getting easy yards on and simply out-running people.

At times I really think this team is poorly coached - they are undisciplined as hell - that may be taboo to all your Marvin lovers - but it's not just Marvin who is responsible.

Every week it's penalties, missed assignments, poor adjustments early on, and mistakes left and right. SuperBowl/playoff teams can't just accept those things and expect to beat good teams.

If not for Palmer chewing up defenses with his arm, I don't know where this team would be, they have some glaring weakenesses at certain positions and their tackles on the 0-line are not playing well lately at all.

[Benzoo]

Run defense has been inconsistent-to-bad all year long, just like last season. Simmons looked horrible and Thurman had his first bad game, along with the safeties they got sucked up in the blocking schemes and never adjusted to the cut backs Taylor was getting easy yards on and simply out-running people.

At times I really think this team is poorly coached - they are undisciplined as hell - that may be taboo to all your Marvin lovers - but it's not just Marvin who is responsible.

Every week it's penalties, missed assignments, poor adjustments early on, and mistakes left and right. SuperBowl/playoff teams can't just accept those things and expect to beat good teams.

If not for Palmer chewing up defenses with his arm, I don't know where this team would be, they have some glaring weakenesses at certain positions and their tackles on the 0-line are not playing well lately at all.

Something definitely needs to be done about the penalties, to be sure, and that can be coached, thank goodness.

I think they should bring some referrees onto the practice field, nit pick them to death, really shake 'em down.

I have no idea what can be done to stymie the run, though. Every year they try to upgrade at DT via free agency. That says alot to me about the talent level there.

Odell's a great start, but the defense needs to grow up a little.

Ditto on your Carson Palmer point.

Couldn't agree more with your post.

[derekshank]

Well, in the first 4 games I think those who thought our run defense were overreacting. If you watched the games you knew it wasn't a big problem. Last night, it was bad though.

The problem here though is not the defense. It is still the offense. A good team will have games that a certain aspect just isn't clicking. Last week it was our offense... and to some extent this was true against the Bears as well. The defense picked up the slack, and made it so we could succeed anyway.

Last night the defense was off... and the offense didn't bail them out. Palmer still played well, but the penalties kept us from winning an otherwise winnable game.

That... and Larson. Those punts in the first quarter cost us the game early. The run defense kept them in the game all night, and our offense let them win it. All three aspects failed us in this one. I think it is clear we were the better team, which is why this one hurts.

[Benzoo]

Well, in the first 4 games I think those who thought our run defense were overreacting. If you watched the games you knew it wasn't a big problem. Last night, it was bad though.

The problem here though is not the defense. It is still the offense. A good team will have games that a certain aspect just isn't clicking. Last week it was our offense... and to some extent this was true against the Bears as well. The defense picked up the slack, and made it so we could succeed anyway.

Last night the defense was off... and the offense didn't bail them out. Palmer still played well, but the penalties kept us from winning an otherwise winnable game.

That... and Larson. Those punts in the first quarter cost us the game early. The run defense kept them in the game all night, and our offense let them win it. All three aspects failed us in this one. I think it is clear we were the better team, which is why this one hurts.

Yeah, the talent level is much higher, but those special teams last night........Ugh.

[Stripes]

I think we'll see more of those cutbacks by Chris Brown next week. He runs a lot more straight up than Taylor but has got enough quickness to get it outside. After the Titans watch the tape, it's hard to think they won't come out trying to bounce left.

This does concern me as well. We may be able to jump out on a bad Titan defense early and force them to throw, effectively hiding a glaring weakness just like we did earlier in the season. Last year Chris Brown played very well against us, and we are likely to be vulnerable to him as well.

If this problem continues into week seven, then I don't know how we are going to stop Willie Parker and the Steelers offense.

[Section 310]

I thought Kevin K was a huge liability last night. He is normally a sure tackler, but Taylor out-juked, out ran and out played him. The Bengals have got to make the strong safety position a priority in the offseason.

We also have to hope Madieu can make it back.

[tmai1323]

We had them stopped a few times on third down, but kept giving them first downs by jumping offsides...

We cannot afford to make those mistakes..

[7/11]

our run defense sucks. and our secondary is very vulnerable. deltha and tory can't tackle...simmons is not the leader he should be (this WILL be his last year in cincy)...thurman overpursues sometimes...madieu is vital to our run d, and the coverage d, too... tory james is slow...kk is adequate at best and i hate knowing he is starting a game, especially against a good running team...kiewan ratliff needs to be on the field more...our defensive tackles are too small...our pash rush is lacking. jumpy jr. has not backed up the hype at all. justin smith is honestly the sole bright spot on the d-line. robinson hasn't done so badly, either. madieu, please come back...thurman, please grow up...simmons, please get hurt so we can atleast get pollack on the field to hellp him mature. ifanyi ohalete, please continue to tackle well, but be in the right spot. tory, please explain to the d-line that the only way you will not get burned is if they apply pressure to the qb. stealtha, please keep doin what you're doin, but tackle better. kiewan, do what you do and you'll be on the field soon enough.

chuck b- sacrifice at the point of attack to take out blockers. the few times i've seen that done, we have stopped the run. don't try to just peel off blocks, take the blocker out and redirect the runner. we leave gaps open way too much.

[San Antonio Bengal]

Ah, good to see that there is finally some talk of the run defense as a weakness....I've been pointing this out for weeks and been dismissed....

In previous weeks, the run defense did its job.

[HairOnFire]

I think we'll see more of those cutbacks by Chris Brown next week. He runs a lot more straight up than Taylor but has got enough quickness to get it outside. After the Titans watch the tape, it's hard to think they won't come out trying to bounce left.

It wasn't just Jumpy Jr. that got sucked into the scrum -- it was all the DEs who lined up there including Pollack and Justin Smith. I don't know that Big Duane would be any better but hard to imagine that he'd be much.......no, wait....it's not hard to imagine that he'd be much worse on the contain. But it is looking like Big Duane does offer more at DT on pass rush than Jumpy...and maybe more than Pollack at RDE at this point.

The LB flow outside absolutely vanished, though. Better LB play by Thurman and Simmons and the safety not getting pinned to the outside or whiffing outright would go a long way to making the DE contain outside more manageable. Another thing missing was Justin Smith's backside pursuit from the other end. Usually he makes tracks to get in on the play across the field. Didn't see that happening last night.

In my opinion the LB's and safeties deserve the bulk of the blame. On way too many plays Taylor found nothing but yards of empty space after cutting back, and that's not the fault of the defensive line being pinched like we spoke about previously. There was almost no outside containment on the 2nd level, and when there was Taylor just whipped it.

[buck3y3d]

Our run defense has improved little, but as i have said all year, turnovers mask problems. The past three years i have watched our DEs lose contain over and over again. Then, Simmons overpursues and the corners are forced to make a tackles. The run defense was bad the first 4 games, it is not possible to be good and allow 4.9 yards a carry. The Bengals need to keep contain, i don't know if this is a problem with scheme or the DE, but the problem must be fixed.

[Bobcat Bengal]

Ah, good to see that there is finally some talk of the run defense as a weakness....I've been pointing this out for weeks and been dismissed....

Well, in the previous games, it wasn't exposed as much because of other factors, like the opponent basically having to abandon the run.

Ah, good to see that there is finally some talk of the run defense as a weakness....I've been pointing this out for weeks and been dismissed....

In previous weeks, the run defense did its job.

Pretty much what he said.

The Texans were committed to the run moreso than any other team we had faced to that point.

Crennel conceded against the run, the Vikings had no choice but to throw, the Bears had somewhat sucess on the run, but turned the ball over too much to really do anything.

JAX was determined to run the ball on us and expose our Run D, which hasn't been tested as much as we would think. That Run D made Taylor look like the Taylor of old.

[Columbusbengal]

Does anyone think the penalty problem may be more of a league-wide push by the officials to call more infractions? It seems to me that EVERYONE is getting more penalties called. Even in last night's game, the Jags were actually penalized more yards than the Bengals. The Ravens, who used to be pretty disciplined, had 22 penalties yesterday. I think the reason we've noticed our penalties is that they have often negated otherwise good plays, so that the actual yards penalized don't reflect the actual yards of damage done by the penalty.

As for the run defense - the Bengals seem to be running a modified prevent defense as a general defensive game plan. They seem to be trying to force teams to run (rather than pass) because it takes a lot more plays to get into scoring position. More plays provide more turnover opportunities and more chances for the OTHER team to get penalties. When the other team has third and long (as a result of a sack or penalty), the Bengals seem to be better at actually forcing a punt, as compared to last year. Overall, the Bengals have won the time of possession in every game and not given up many points. Even last night, it took TWO FIFTY YARD FIELD GOALS to score enough points to beat us.

It's fine with me if the defense plays every game exactly like it did last night, except we need Madieu playing safety and the special teams to deprive the opponent of good field position.

[San Antonio Bengal]

Overall, the Bengals have won the time of possession in every game and not given up many points. Even last night, it took TWO FIFTY YARD FIELD GOALS to score enough points to beat us.

We've won TOP in every game, but in last nights game, it was only by a matter of seconds.

And you make a good point about needing two 50 yard field goals to defeat us. Despite being behind the whole way, this really was a close game. A couple small plays seemed to make the difference between a win and a loss despite how poorly we played at times.

[Kirkendall]

Does anyone think the penalty problem may be more of a league-wide push by the officials to call more infractions?

Not so much to me, because a majority of our flags are brain-dead pre-snap fouls (false start, delay of game, illegal formation).

I have noticed we have a lot of offensive pass interferences though. Five by my count. Illegal contact is up, but that's a league-wide rule that got expanded this season.

Over all, IMHO, our rush defense looked good. When Taylor ran at the spot he was designed to go, the defense was there. But the cutback lanes were really empty. I think our youthful linebackers showed a little not staying at home (ie Pollack, Thurman, Landon) and even Simmons crashed hard inside a few times.

Is there any doubt we miss Madeiu a little now?

[HairOnFire]

I can't remember where I came across the stat but at this point of the season penalties are more plentiful for the 3rd or 4th year in a row. It wasn't a huge jump, something like 30 more this year than last, and 30 more that year than the one previous, and so on.