Frustrated with lack of FA action

[Section 310]

Everyone knows that with the hard salary cap you cannot spend wildly...(like the Raiders and Cowboys have done thus far.) However, it seems that year after year when FA opens the Bengals take little to no action. They are content to let other clubs sign the A-list players. We then go shopping through the bargain basement seeking players who have been left behind by the first wave of signings.

Don't get me wrong, I trust in Marvin and have been highly impressed by his drafts thus far. However, the lack of action smells of the Brown family. Marvin knows this team is in need of a DT, so why did we not make a strong push for Pat Williams?

If I were the GM I would do the following:

1. Cut Hardy and Warrick to get some cap relief.

2. Target defensive line and/or linebacker help.

3. Continue to try to work a trade for Rudi (the Raiders overpaid for

Jordon...that money could be put to better use) Assuming a trade

can be reached, use a 2nd round pick on an RB...or grab a guy

like Ron Dayne or Tyrone Wheatley as a stop-gap for a season.

4. Grab one of the FA tight ends who can do an adequate job over

the course of the 05' season....draft a replacement early...round

2 or 3.

Hopefully Marvin is the one calling the shots. I hate to think he is being

overruled by the Katie, Troy and Paul Jr. braintrust.

[membengal]

Everyone knows that with the hard salary cap you cannot spend wildly...(like the Raiders and Cowboys have done thus far.) However, it seems that year after year when FA opens the Bengals take little to no action. They are content to let other clubs sign the A-list players. We then go shopping through the bargain basement seeking players who have been left behind by the first wave of signings.

Don't get me wrong, I trust in Marvin and have been highly impressed by his drafts thus far. However, the lack of action smells of the Brown family. Marvin knows this team is in need of a DT, so why did we not make a strong push for Pat Williams?

If I were the GM I would do the following:

1. Cut Hardy and Warrick to get some cap relief.

2. Target defensive line and/or linebacker help.

3. Continue to try to work a trade for Rudi (the Raiders overpaid for

Jordon...that money could be put to better use) Assuming a trade

can be reached, use a 2nd round pick on an RB...or grab a guy

like Ron Dayne or Tyrone Wheatley as a stop-gap for a season.

4. Grab one of the FA tight ends who can do an adequate job over

the course of the 05' season....draft a replacement early...round

2 or 3.

Hopefully Marvin is the one calling the shots. I hate to think he is being

overruled by the Katie, Troy and Paul Jr. braintrust.

No offense, but I am sooooooooooo tired of people playing the Brown family card at this point.

When you look at ML, do you get the sense that he is in anything other than firm control? Do you get the sense that a move gets made without anything other than his OK?

I sure as hell don't.

They will make moves or not. If they do make moves, it's because ML thinks they should. That's plenty for me.

This is so totally different from the era of futitility that I invite you to get over yourself and chill out.

Respectfully.

By the way, the 33-year-old Williams was WAY overpriced. And, if they had pursued him, then people such as yourself would have been crying because they didn't take care of TJ. FA is about choices. There are limits to what can be done without screwing the team's cap in the future.

[HoosierCat]

I'd also like to see the Bengals be a little more proactive going into FA. Other teams redo deals and trim the roster of junk to create space to maneuver in; the Bengals always do nothing and then gripe about being tight under the cap. It's sort of like not changing your oil for 20,000 miles and then complaining when the car breaks down.

That said, I like resigning TJ. And since Rudi has not signed the tender yet (he's supposed to do so today, but then he was supposed to do so two days ago...) and the Bengals seem adamant about not giving him top 5-10 RB money, there's not much that can yet be done there. Williams would have been nice but either Marvin didn't think he was worth a big payday or Mikey wouldn't pay it. I dunno which.

If you're going to get rid of Warrick you look to trade him first. Unless his knee is completely shot, cutting him would be stupid.

Hardy has long been a kick-to-the-curbside favorite.

They've brought Robinson in on the DL front; nothing special but he'd likely be an upgrade over Tony Williams. Bringing back Powell, who's been an adequate utility guy, remains an option. They re-upped Terrance Martin. Moore played well in his time in the rotation last year; Askew is up-and-coming. Etc., etc. I don't think the d-line situation is quite as desperate as some make it out to be.

Linebacker, esp. MLB, I agree. I wasn't impressed with Caleb Miller and who knows if Nate will be back at 100%.

Been hoping they'd go after TE Anthony Becht, but doesn't seem to be happening.

[Section 310]

So let me ask you this Membengal, do you honestly believe that ML has total control over personnel and the cap? What role do you see the Brown and Blackburns playing?

Remember the friction last year when ML pushed to get Sapp? (A move I personally did not agree with) Lapham said ML met resistance from the family and Sapp (thankfully) ended up in Oakland.

[Fab Five]

I'm just as frustrated... Yes I do trust Mavin but I think its a valid point to ask if the orginization is doing enough to make up ground on the Steelers & Ravens???

8-8 or even 9-7 is not going to get you to the playoffs in the AFC as it stands...

And we just stand pat with the team we have, like we just won the Super Bowl!!! We also talk about are young players getting better, but the teams that are in front of us also will have young players get better... How do we make up that 7 game gap on the Steelers???

I also question their commitment to winning... Is it because they don't want to pay signing bonuses / up front money??? Geoff Hobson talks about the Bengals cap situation when talking about the likes of Bryan Robinson... If the Bengals really wanted to be serious players in free agency why not redo the contracts of Willie, Levi and Peter prior to March 2nd instead of just talking about it now... I still don't know why Kevin Hardy is on the team??? What do we lose with him being gone??? NOTHING!!! They could also cut other marginal players

[membengal]

So let me ask you this Membengal, do you honestly believe that ML has total control over personnel and the cap? What role do you see the Brown and Blackburns playing?

Remember the friction last year when ML pushed to get Sapp? (A move I personally did not agree with) Lapham said ML met resistance from the family and Sapp (thankfully) ended up in Oakland.

Yes I do. I firmly believe that ML drives the direction of the team. He came out and said so in response to Bob Trumpy's allegations that he was being railroaded. Called the pool reporters over and explained how involved he was. That would be extremely involved.

What I am hearing in this thread is people being impatient after two days of FA. Players will still get cut. Players who can help this team. If someone is available at the right price, do you all really think that they won't cut Hardy at that point? You and I know they will. And, if they don't, I won't like it, but I will assume that ML thinks he still has value. I kind of have to defer to that.

When the time comes, when they have someone they want, they will make the cuts they need. They did that last year and the year before.

But it makes no sense to cut people prematurely. If they can get a draft pick for Warrick, they should try and do that. If their LBs were the least bit healthy, I bet Hardy would already be gone, but Webster and Johnson have lingereing health questions.

My only point about threads like this is...patience. For godssake, ML has done nothing in two years to make me question his overall vision for the team. There were roughly 4678 threads begging them to re-sign TJ. I wasn't one of those begging for it. I thought the money might be spent elsewhere. That said, am I going to throw ML under the bus because he did? Um, no. He is about ten billion times closer to the situation than I am.

Ferguson is 31. Williams 32. They got insane high money. Do you all want them at the expense of TJ? Or having room to deal with Steinbach, Anderson and Jones next year? This picture is WAY bigger than any of us have access to.

Spend like drunken sailors? Roll money into future years? I don't like that at all. I assume that is what the Raiders are doing now. That will hurt in a few years. Ask Tennessee. Do you see NE burning down FA's doors at the start of FA periods? No, they tend to wait, bide their time, and get their guys as the right price. I prefer that model.

As for Sapp, remind me, what exactly were his stats in Oakland last season? And what was Oakland's record? The Bengals missed out HOW exactly in not getting him?

[BengalsFan77]

... I still don't know why Kevin Hardy is on the team??? What do we lose with him being gone??? NOTHING!!! They could also cut other marginal players

what we lose is a veteran lb that knows the system really well on a group of lbs that at most is questionable. if webster and johnson were 100% and there were no questionmarks, then i have no doubt that hardy would already b gone. i do think that as training camp progresses, and the questions about the other lbs r answered, hardy will eventually b cut.

but where we stand right now, i think ML is doing the right thing. and u never know, maybe we keep him even with everyone else healthy, and he has a great year being more comfortable with the system.

[HoosierCat]

I'm just as frustrated... Yes I do trust Mavin but I think its a valid point to ask if the orginization is doing enough to make up ground on the Steelers & Ravens???

Just as a side note, I find it interesting that neither the Steelers nor the Ravens have been big players in FA, either. The Steelers I can certainly understand. They can probably replace a Bell or Burress without losing much, but I don't think the signing of Mason makes the Ravens all that much more formidable. I also find it notable that even with bums like Courtney Brown and the Warren trade, Cleveland didn't make a play for any of the big-name DTs or DEs. Maybe they figured they wouldn't come...but maybe Crennell doesn't think the likes of Pat Williams was worth big bucks either...?

[bengalboomer7]

I think everyone might be overreacting a tad bit. Like I've said before history shows that spending big in free agency always backfires(see Dan Synder and more) Build your team through the draft and retain the guys that perform well in the system. doesn't anywhere remember this supposedly being the "theme" in last year's free agency. how everyone was going to follow the mold of the patriots. Now everyone wants us to spend all we got and complain when we get TJ locked up(on a very cap savvy deal too) shore up our running back position, and have great depth at most positions. Joisey is right, our DT rotation is shoring up some, whether we like it or not. LB is becoming a growing concern with so many players rehabbing from major surgeries and our SS position almost doesnt exist.

Everyone just relax and let Marvin put his team on the field, I'm betting we will all wmiling come December

[Section 310]

Yes I do. I firmly believe that ML drives the direction of the team. He came out and said so in response to Bob Trumpy's allegations that he was being railroaded. Called the pool reporters over and explained how involved he was. That would be extremely involved.

Membengal...you dodged the question.

1. Does ML have total control of cap and personnel or not? We

all know that ML is more involved than others. My question is

whether the Brown family kills potential deals due to money at

this point in the game.

2. I didn't like the Sapp deal either.

[shworge]

Everyone keeps talking about getting help along the defensive line, but nobody wants to say who we should target. We had no chance at Jason Ferguson or Pat Williams because they knew where they were going before free agency even opened. I guess we could have taken a run at Hayward, but do you really want to pay that guy 25 million? Honestly this is a pretty weak FA class, i don't blame the Bengals for focusing on keeping their own.

[skyline]

I agree with boomer on this one. People are overreacting...

Who out there on the free agent market is worth forking over big bucks to? Sure, some of the free agents would be nice to have, but you can't spend big money on them and continue to pay the guys we have as they deserve. Like others have said, history shows that dropping big money on free agents isn't the way to win. You need to pick up role players, re-sign your own guys, keep developing the players you have, and get another wave of strong rookies to grow and develop.

[shworge]

I agree with boomer on this one. People are overreacting...

Who out there on the free agent market is worth forking over big bucks to? Sure, some of the free agents would be nice to have, but you can't spend big money on them and continue to pay the guys we have as they deserve. Like others have said, history shows that dropping big money on free agents isn't the way to win. You need to pick up role players, re-sign your own guys, keep developing the players you have, and get another wave of strong rookies to grow and develop.

exactly.

[TJJackson]

About the only guy left who'd probably come in and make a nice impact on our win-loss record is Egerton Hartwell...the unheralded tackling machine from Baltimore. Always a bonus when you can help yourself and hurt a division rival atthe same time.

In the era of the salary cap, I am not a fan of big FA spending. I am a fan of spending on quietly productive FAs who fill immediate needs. Ergo, the one other guy I would have liked to have seen us sign was C Casey Rabach, as we certainly are in a bit of a spot at C.

That said, if the guy from Miami that we just brought in is as advertised - a quietly effective run stopper who won't command big bucks - then I am all for it. If on the other hand he is no better at stopping the run than the existing starting DLs, then let him sign elsewhere, and continue to develop your young DLs in-house.

[Chucktkd]

Jimmy Johnson once said that the most important thing to do in the off season is to keep your own players. Continuity is critical on both sides of the ball. Each year Marv has brought in talent but by draft and FA acquisition while watching the salary cap. His strategy is to build mainly through the draft and add a few selected players. This is best for the long haul. The team disappointed us all this year due to the injuries but be patient. This is the year we will return to the playoffs!!!!!

[membengal]

Yes I do. I firmly believe that ML drives the direction of the team. He came out and said so in response to Bob Trumpy's allegations that he was being railroaded. Called the pool reporters over and explained how involved he was. That would be extremely involved.

Membengal...you dodged the question.

1. Does ML have total control of cap and personnel or not? We

all know that ML is more involved than others. My question is

whether the Brown family kills potential deals due to money at

this point in the game.

2. I didn't like the Sapp deal either.

I am not dodging anything. Go back and read what he said. I am not going to try and paraphras it.

For those of you who insist on seeing the Mike Brown boogeyman in everything, well, there is no helping you.

I am with the others who have weighed in here. There is a whole lot of overreacting going on.

[membengal]

Here was the bengalszone thread with the .com article about ML and the salary cap involvement:

http://forums.bengalszone.com/index.php?showtopic=4093&hl=

I will be out for a few days, so don't think I am ducking you on this. I happen to believe that the Bengals WITH ML involved are night and day different from the Bengals BEFORE ML was involved.

If you don't, then you don't, and there is no point in arguing about it.

But I prefer not to continue to live as if it's 1999 in Bengaldom. Matter of fact, I happily choose not to.

Peace.

[HairOnFire]

I'm not frustrated. I've been around long enough to understand how this team does business. Now that they've locked up their own assets the Bengals will look for one or two 2nd and 3rd level bargains whose signings do more to free up the draft than providing true immediate impact. And they'll cut Hardy only if they have to...and not a moment early. Why? Because they've already got the cap space to sign the type of player they're looking to sign now. Other FA options currently asking for big coin will have to pass through the system at least once...making the rounds while their financial hopes are humbled...before real interest is expressed.

Last, the Bengals will back away from extending Big Willies contract the first moment he says something about deserving to be paid like a LT due to his opinion that he could play there if asked. So those of you looking for some cap relief better hope that since they last talked Willie has learned the fine art of internal editing. Meanwhile, Levi, Steinbach, and Justin Smith will be approached only after the start of the season.

Frankly, I wouldn't expect any signing for about a week. Maybe two.

[Fab Five]

Joisey-

You know I always enjoy your post and you definitely make valid points...

It just seems that the Bengals organization is more reactive in free agency than proactive...

Marvin talks about taking the "next step" which are the playoffs and were going to have to start beating the Ravens & Steelers (stopping the run) consistently in order to be a power in this division... I would think that the onus is on the Bengals as an organization to really focus on that in the off-season... Yet the only thing we have is a visit from Bryan Robinson???

There’s got to be a free agent or two out there worth bringing in and considering at the opening of the Free agency period that could help this ball club improve its personnel to match up better with those two teams...

I don't consider myself impatient... I just would like to read or hear about someone that is performing at a high level and/or on the upswing of their career that we at least talk to and make an attempt to get that could help us.

[Chucktkd]

A good article on the ridiculous FA market thus far. Maybe people will appreciate the FO being cautious.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/8249573

[HoosierCat]

There’s got to be a free agent or two out there worth bringing in and considering at the opening of the Free agency period that could help this ball club improve its personnel to match up better with those two teams...

I think Ferguson of Williams certainly would have helped, but as I said in another thread it likely would have take a significant premium to what they signed for, since their were personal as well as financial reasons behind their moves. Do you really want to drop $5-6 million on a Pat Williams, who might play 55-60% of your defensive snaps?

I still think that their best bet to make a splash on the d-line would be to find a team who'd be willing to swap a good DT for Rudi. Say Rudi for Corey Simon. Of course, they'd better be real confident of Perry in such a case...

[Whur CHad At?]

I am dissapointed in ML only for this reason. A lot of A list players want to come here because of him but he cant get them because when they have money they are afraid to spend it on A list players. From What I heard, he wants to go after that Bentley and Gardner guys from Cleveland. Not very impressive if we sign them and we dont need either of them.

[jjakq27]

I agree with boomer on this one.  People are overreacting...

Who out there on the free agent market is worth forking over big bucks to?  Sure, some of the free agents would be nice to have, but you can't spend big money on them and continue to pay the guys we have as they deserve.  Like others have said, history shows that dropping big money on free agents isn't the way to win. You need to pick up role players, re-sign your own guys, keep developing the players you have, and get another wave of strong rookies to grow and develop.

Yep, just like last year. Everybody was boo-hooing about not getting Sapp, yet rumor is he might get cut by the Raiders. Yet now not signing him last year makes sense.

Call me at the end of next week and then I will let you know how we are doing. Until then, "Stay calm!", as Kevin Bacon says at the end of Animal House.