Marvin won't admit it but.....

[walzav29]

We should have drafted Vince Woolfork instead of moving down. It seems like he tries too hard to go against "conventional" wisdom, just to seem like he knows more than dumb analysts. I think he is making numerous personnel mistakesn. I'm just not sold on these Raven and Redskin castoffs. This sure does feel like Coslet's 2nd year, and I feel like a sucker for buying tickets this season. I will not buy another ticket until these suck-wads make the playoffs. Which will never happen again. I the year 2098 Bengal fans will be saying, "we're young, and going through growing pains. Next year is it." Why the hell doesn't Pittsburgh ever have growing pains?

[jjakq27]

We should have drafted Vince Woolfork instead of moving down. It seems like he tries too hard to go against "conventional" wisdom, just to seem like he knows more than dumb analysts. I think he is making numerous personnel mistakesn. I'm just not sold on these Raven and Redskin castoffs. This sure does feel like Coslet's 2nd year, and I feel like a sucker for buying tickets this season. I will not buy another ticket until these suck-wads make the playoffs. Which will never happen again. I the year 2098 Bengal fans will be saying, "we're young, and going through growing pains. Next year is it." Why the hell doesn't Pittsburgh ever have growing pains?

I second your thoughts on Woolfork. If we were a player or two from a championship team, then Chris Perry might be a difference maker. However I can't understand how a defensive-minded coach could pass over a guy like that for Perry.

Last year, this regime made a commitment to the offense by retaining most of the offensive coaches and coordinator. We kept the majority of the players on offense too. Lewis brought in Reggie Kelly and Bobbie Williams, promoted Rudi after Corey was hurt, drafted Palmer and Steinbach, so the offense has had minimal change.

But drafting Perry and Kelly Washington in the third round last year were wasted picks when the defense is the biggest need area. The FA' from last year are just not getting it done this year and the guys that have been brought in this year and not making a big difference either.

Enjoy this week because this will be the last Monday nighter we will see for a long time.

[Phatness]

I think its really sad that most everyone seems to have forgotten what put the Bengals in the Super Bowl when Boomer was here.......

THE LINE!

On both sides of the ball is just terrible.......

Defense...

I like Justin Smith....but he is really the guy that should be playing on the end opposite a Jevon Kearse type player...you know, the dominating defensive end...and the middle is just poor...we need a big athletic space eater in the middle, even when Marvin was in Baltimore he had Seragusa (sp?) to eat up the blockers in the middle....If you strengthen the D-line, you keep blockers off our athletic backers and that means the Linebackers are making the tackles that Kim Herring is making today....

Offense....

Carson Palmer is getting the crap kicked out of him on every play...I love Willie Anderson, I have his Jersey, but he isn't getting younger.. Levi Jones looked like a solid pickup, but the guy has never really been healthy, he was limping around all day Sunday..that is not the way your blindside tackle should be... Steinbach is a keeper, Brahm is a warrior thats time has past, and Bobbie Williams is just a space filler....

We have plenty of skill position talent..but until the lines are addressed we will continue to play poor football........

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

What do you think last year was, if not growing pains for Pittsburgh?

Vince Wilfork wouldn't make a damned bit of difference here. The truth is, he would be just as bad as what we have. Why? Because our defense isn't ONE GUY away. It is in a stage of complete rebuilding. If we would have drafted defensive line, we wouldn't have guys like Ratliff, Oneal, Williams, and Herring in our secondary, and it would be even uglier than it is. We would be starting 3rd and Artrell, with no secondary at all. NO defensive line could help that.

This year, Marvin decided to rebuild the secondary, since corners and safeties usually take a year to get to the NFL level. Madieu Williams is doing well and surprising us with his ability.

Next year Marvin will be able to concentrate on the front 4. Our secondary will be more experienced, and our two rookie linebackers will be ready to play. Our offense will be fine, so long as we add a young athletic center and get our guys healed up and back to playing like they did last year across the line. This means we can concentrate on the defensive line.

In nearly every mock draft, most of the top defensive linemen were gone by pick 17, despite the fact that the draft didn't go anything like the mock drafts. But, if we stayed at 17, noone expected Wilfork to be there. In fact at 17 we were expected to take Chris Gamble in most drafts, and you'd still be crying about the defense.

[Phatness]

I hope you are right and Marvin does in fact address the Dline in the upcoming offseason........its just frustrating as hell that we are reduced to talking about next year at Week 6 of this season.....and Marvin needs to take the heat for most if not all of this.... Its not that we lose....we have been losing for years....its the way we lose....its not good football....You can be young and inexperienced, but there is no excuse for not tackling, not blocking and not lining up in the correct place....that is on the coaches...

I agree the Defense is not just one player away....

[HoosierCat]

Agree completely that both the O and D lines need work, esp. the D. In Marvin's defense, I will note that he twice tried to address the defensive line. But his bid for Sapp -- assuming Sapp was ever serious about the Bengals to begin with -- was torpedoed by Mikey, and his deal with Gardener fell apart after Daryl was forced to fess up to a bad back. (And I think that Marvin thinking that he had Gardener in his hip pocket was a big reason why he waited so long to pick a DT in the draft.)

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Agree completely that both the O and D lines need work, esp. the D. In Marvin's defense, I will note that he twice tried to address the defensive line. But his bid for Sapp -- assuming Sapp was ever serious about the Bengals to begin with -- was torpedoed by Mikey, and his deal with Gardener fell apart after Daryl was forced to fess up to a bad back. (And I think that Marvin thinking that he had Gardener in his hip pocket was a big reason why he waited so long to pick a DT in the draft.)

I totally agree about Gardener. I also think that thinking Gardener was a done deal was a big reason we lost out on Sapp. Lets face it, we wouldn't have signed Gardener AND Sapp.

Askew will be fine next year, just think of him as the first round draft pick for next year that we got a year early. He was projected to be the top DT in next years draft before he declared this year.

Michael Munoz I tell you..... Oh, and Ben Wilkerson!

[membengal]

No way do I believe Askew will be ready to help next year. What track record do the Bengals have with developing good interior line play on the defensive side of the ball? What track record does this staff have that gives you any confidence. I have moved to Missouri mentally now, show me.

Marvin is fond of saying it, but I throw it back at him now. I see better than I hear.

[Phatness]

Both Askew and Stacey Andrews are at least two seasons away from helping us...

The Gardener deal spoiled Marvins plans for the front line....we will see what he does next year....my biggest fear is that this poor play is going to taint the positive light the team has been viewed in by free agents around the league....

[HoosierCat]

Both Askew and Stacey Andrews are at least two seasons away from helping us...

The Gardener deal spoiled Marvins plans for the front line....we will see what he does next year....my biggest fear is that this poor play is going to taint the positive light the team has been viewed in by free agents around the league....

I hear ya re: free agents. Same old same old isn't going to get anyone to come here.

Re Askew and Andrews, I think Askew ought to be able to contribute next year. Andrews you're probably right about, but assuming he develops he should fit in nicely as our RT of the Future.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

No way do I believe Askew will be ready to help next year. What track record do the Bengals have with developing good interior line play on the defensive side of the ball? What track record does this staff have that gives you any confidence. I have moved to Missouri mentally now, show me.

Marvin is fond of saying it, but I throw it back at him now. I see better than I hear.

What track record do the Bengals have with developing good interior line play on the defensive side of the ball? None. But we haven't had the same staff here to develop rookie defensive linemen either. When was the last time we had a decent lineman from the draft TO develop?

On the other hand what track record does Marvin Lewis have?

Michael McCrary, Sam Adams, etc. He turned nothing into something in Baltimore and took them to the super bowl with defense.

Askew WILL develop.

But, following from your theory, when have the Bengals ever had a winning team? Oh well, guess we won't see one for a long time.....

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I will absolutely guarantee you Andrews will never amount to anything here with Paul Alexander as a coach.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

I will absolutely guarantee you Andrews will never amount to anything here with Paul Alexander as a coach.

Alexander does a good job with the line.

[Jonboat]

I agree, we need to address the lines on both sides of the ball especially Def. but as others have said we tried to do that (Sapp & Gardener ) through FA, it just didn't work out. I can't say I've been surprised by the run Def. but the O-line has been another story. They have been very disappointing to me. I know the injuries have really hurt & it's difficult to just plug a player in here & there but , I still thought they'd play better than they have so far, hopefully now since we got LJ & RB back they'll get the timing they need to have as a unit ( timing, blitz pick ups etc.) As far as Askew I think he'll develope & personally I wouldn't mind seeing him play some this year ! I just think we don't really have much to lose, at this point what would it hurt ! GO BENGALS!!! Jonboat

[cover2]

I have yet to understand why we drafted Perry, besides he makes people miss?

Was it because Rudi is on a one year contract? Probably!

We needed defensive line help and drafted a running back. Then we follow that up with two LB that weigh 225 lbs. This is indefensible. Mistakes in the draft take years to recover and that's why we are where we are.

[HoosierCat]

I have yet to understand why we drafted Perry, besides he makes people miss?

Was it because Rudi is on a one year contract? Probably!

We needed defensive line help and drafted a running back. Then we follow that up with two LB that weigh 225 lbs. This is indefensible. Mistakes in the draft take years to recover and that's why we are where we are.

We drafted Perry because efforts to nail down Rudi long-term didn't go anywhere. Few details have filtered out about the conversation between the two camps, but according to Ludwig @ the Dayton Daily News (who usually has his stuff together regarding the Bengals) the Bengals did offer Rudi a long-term deal. However, it wasn't a blockbuster offer -- and I don't think it should have been; one-half a season does not a career make -- and Rudi opted to see if he could perform well this year and be the prize RB in FA next year. If so, he could command $40 million, $50 million, $60 million, heaven knows how much, next March.

I have no doubt that that pushed RB to the top of the Bengals' draft board. And remember, at the time, Weathersby was already gone for the year thanks to that horrific car accident, meaning CB had just also been shoved high up on the board (as usual!), and they had a deal in place for DT Daryl Gardener. Taken all together, draft day now makes perfect sense: having Gardener in their back pocket meant there was no rush to address DT, the trade with Denver allowed them to pick up a young and one-time Pro Bowl CB, and still get the RB they coveted. All your crucial needs are filled before you're out of round 1, and then Marvin & Co. could spend the next six round picking out players they saw as building blocks for the future.

Unfortunately, that strategy backfired. First, Gardener turned out to have a bum back that's put him out of football. That didn't come to light until mid-summer, which was way too late to do anything about the sudden gaping hole on the d-line except hope. And the one DT they did draft, the promising Askew, has been battling nagging injuries all season. Not that he could have been expected to help much this year, but even that faint hope hasn't materialized.

Perry, too, was dinged in camp and is still fighting off a recent ab strain this week. I think we need to get him in the game badly because his versatiility could help us compensate for Warrick's loss, but apparently he isn't ready, either mentally or physically or both.

Deltha O'Neal, the CB they traded for, also got injured before the season, and is only now getting back to 100%. And injuries to other vets -- most notably Abdullah, Herring, Beckett and Webster -- have forced many of the "building blocks" out on the field way too early. Madieu Williams has acquitted himself well, and Landon Johnson and Caleb Miller are making some plays, but their inexperience is showing, too.

So far, an appropriate name for this season might be "Murphy's Year." Certainly, almost everything that could go wrong has.

[shworge]

In nearly every mock draft, most of the top defensive linemen were gone by pick 17, despite the fact that the draft didn't go anything like the mock drafts. But, if we stayed at 17, noone expected Wilfork to be there. In fact at 17 we were expected to take Chris Gamble in most drafts, and you'd still be crying about the defense.

I don't think any of us thought Wilfork would be available at number 17. In almost every mock draft I saw Wilfork, Will Smith and Udeze were all taken by 17. If Marvin knew those guys would be there I don't think he would have traded down.

[BengalszoneBilly]

If that's the way Marvin and company viewed the Gardner deal, before he was actually checked out by the Bengals, then I call that a major screwup. Completely unprofessional!

[jjakq27]

As far as Gardner, I don't think he was available until after June 1. I don't think teams have the ability to check somebody out before then? But I am sure they could have gotten some kind of read on this guy. It is bad that we assumed everything was OK with this guy. Even if we would have had Gardner, I still would have considered drafting Woolfork. Having a dominating D-line is the place to begin building a championship team. We took one of our biggest weaknesses from last year and did nothing to improve it. I would still like to know the truth about the Warren Sapp deal too. Who pulled it and why?

As for the rest of the season, etc., let's hope that this season is the glitch in the trend, not last year.

BTW, nice assessment of the team, Joisey.

[CTBengalsFan]

perry pick = uncertainty to rudi's future.

can't NOT have a RB. their choice of going about though, i agree is suspect.

[jjakq27]

I agree about the uncertainty of Rudi but that still doesn't justify that as the top priority with this team after last year. Finding a serviceable running back is easier to find than a patch for a crappy defensive line. If you have a stout defense, you don't have to score 30 points a game to win.

[BengalPappaw]

I agree that the Bengals need help on BOTH lines. And Paul Alexander is NOT the answer as the O-Line Coach. I really didn't realize how much we relied on Jim Mc'Nally was until he left.

I, too, am hoping that Askew can develop -- he looked awesome at times in college (even against good players). He appears to have the size and athletic abilities. He needs to make sure his desire to get better is there.

Even with Askew developing, the Bengals still need another DL man. There are two good ones that could be available when the Bengals draft --Rodrique Wright, Texas and Anttaj Hawthorne, Wisconsin.

My concern is that we also need some bigger, fast LBs. I believe Derrick Johnson would be a good choice and could also be available.

Now, my number one fear is that we will REACH for another backup!!! I still am stinging from the choice of Chris Perry -- I'd rather reach for C, Jake Grove. Braham has never been a strength for this team -- he adequate, but nOT dominant. While I'm talking about O-Line, we will need another RG. Bobby is another adequate, but not sufficient pass blocker. He damn near falls on his face -- thanks to the great coaching of techniques by Paul Alexnader.

PLEASE LOOK AT WHAT I"VE JUST DONE!!!

I've slipped into a discussion of the NFL draft, because thats the only positive I see coming for sure -- its just like the old days YUCK!!. If we keep playing the way we are, we will get another high draft choice. WHOOPIE!!! I'd rather have a winner!!

Come on Marvin!! I still trust you -- but I need some stronger signs of improvement!!

[BengalszoneBilly]

Having a dominating D-line is the place to begin building a championship team.

This truth is undoubtable. Regrettably the concept has NEVER been fully embraced by the Bengals under any head coach.

[HoosierCat]

I agree about the uncertainty of Rudi but that still doesn't justify that as the top priority with this team after last year. Finding a serviceable running back is easier to find than a patch for a crappy defensive line.

Perhaps...and perhaps not. The Bengals' deal with Gardener was the worst-kept secret in the league, and when all the football preview mags came out he was assumed to be a Bengal and considered a significant upgrade. Ludwig, in his preseason writeup for the Sporting News's pro football preview, wrote "Gardener can occupy two blockers and still create push up the middle. His presence should create more one-on-one matchups for the end." Which is precisely the kind of disruptive line we wanted. You can make the argument he would have been a pretty big patch.

As for the ease of finding a RB...well, I'd bet that Miami fans would beg to differ. Prior to this year, New England fans might have, too. And you also have to consider that waiting until 2005 to draft an RB means that just as (hopefully) your sophomore QB is starting to "get it," you're making a rookie the No. 1 weapon on the ground.

In hindsight, should the have done something different? You can certainly make that argument, too. But hindsight, as they say, is always 20/20. Given what they knew and thought they knew at the time, their decision weren't bad ones. IMHO, of course.