Marvin, your free pass has run out.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Bear in mind that I'm not jumping off any wagons, or "ripping" anyone. What I'm getting to is this: Marvin is definitely going to start feeling the heat, as well he should! I'll also say if he thinks it's hot now, go ahead and lose this badly to Denver in Cincinnati next Monday night on national T.V.! That heat will make this feel like a cool autumn breeze! Forget about all that "In Marvin We Trust" rah-rah crap too. Trust is something you earn on a consistent basis, and the only thing consistent about this team is poor play and losing.

I honestly doubt anyone could realistically see the Bengals doing much better than last years 8-8. Especially with a young QB now starting. But a return to the dismally dark days of 4-12 or worse is, for lack of a better word, unacceptable. We all deep down expected less offensively this season, and for good reason.

But there is simply NO excuse for this debacle of what the defense has descended to. I mean giving up 31 points to a Browns offense led by seemingly the second coming of Joe Montana if you looked purely at the stats, but in reality was the laughable Jeff Garcia, tells you all you need to know! And the Browns tried their best to give the game back with turnovers in that horrid second quarter of theirs!

Yeah, yeah. I'm sure plenty of people are standing by, ready with their excuses of injuries this, and injuries that...about how these poor guy's are forced into playing positions they don't usually play...blah, blah, f**king blah. Sorry. I just ain't buyin' it. Just another weak-ass excuse boys. The truth is the players just are not good, a condition commonly referred to as "suck." Yet here they are wearing stripes. Go figure. How unusual, right? Right.

So here's the bottom line guys, the "secret" if you will...the Bengals will NEVER return to prominence or the playoffs until the following changes:

During the draft we need to forget that "oh so smart" policy of drafting this elusive "Best Player Available." All that gets you is where Cincinnati currently stands...Livin' large in "Loserville". Population: Mike Brown, Marvin Lewis and our Bengals! Seeing signs of improvement anywhere on this team is rarer than finding a Republican supporting gay marriage!

We need to draft exactly what we need! ***drum roll please*** That need is BIG (as in nothing under 300 pounds) strong defensive lineman who is capable of pressuring the opposing QB! That need is followed by ***drum roll please*** BIG (as in nothing under 250 pounds) strong and fast, run stuffing linebackers! The ONLY acceptable position to draft offensively is to address the offensive line. If a really good pick is available for a O-line position, that's fine.

Back me up here Barb, Chris, Josh, or anyone else here that's played the line. Is this game not won or lost in the trenches, meaning on the line of scrimmage by the "big uglies" as they're called? You can't argue against this simple fact! Games aren't won by Hiesman winning QB's, overpriced "shutdown" cornerbacks, flashy receivers or speedy runningbacks. When your team controls the line of scrimmage, you control the game. Without exception!

So let's not waste anymore #1 picks on runningbacks like Perry that are only contributing a whopping 10 whole yards of total offense on 2 carries and one reception in the seasons fifth game. I mean c'mon. Was he really the best player available at that time? I beg to differ. Drafting that way is pure folly, and the Bengals current 1-4 record attests to it. Not only doesn't it work, but I seriously doubt anyone one on the Cincinnati drafting committee has the ability to identify the actual best player available at any given time! They would have better odds of that in a lottery format!

I don't see the Patriots, currently #1 team in football, using the "Best Available Player" draft policy. The Patriots needed help at a specific position: Runningback, so they traded their #2 draft pick and addressed that specific need, even though they didn't actually draft it. Hence an improved offense that was already formidable to begin with! They reign at the top of the league. I don't need to point out where the Bengals reside to most folks here either.

Like Larry the Cable Guy says...You don't need to be the head guy at the Jiffy Lube to figure this out! The way Cincinnati's been doing things for a long time obviously doesn't work, so here's a radical idea! Change the way you've been doing things! Next year draft help where the teams needs are!

[Kirkendall]

Amen Preacher!

[bengalsfan33]

Amen, brother!

Couldn't agree more with what you said....

[Barbarian]

Billy,

I've been directly or indirectly saying everything you just said in your post to start this thread--however, I've been getting jumped in almost every thread I've stated such things.

Now, it's become a reality and most the people in here don't wanna face it. Most homers have gone from being homers to jumping off the bandwagon pulling a full 180.

Guys, make up your mind, it's either YOU're ON OR OFF.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Billy,

I've been directly or indirectly saying everything you just said in your post to start this thread--however, I've been getting jumped in almost every thread I've stated such things.

True, you most certainly have, but just be glad this isn't the days of old, with Kings and Knights in battles in far off lands. The masses usually killed guys like you bearing the bad news, wheather they had anything to do with it or not! Kinda puts all this "jumping" of you in perspective now, don't it?

[belmontbengal]

Great post...I could NOT concur more.

[Bobcat Bengal]

Now, it's become a reality and most the people in here don't wanna face it. Most homers have gone from being homers to jumping off the bandwagon pulling a full 180.

Guys, make up your mind, it's either YOU're ON OR OFF.

There's a perfectly good solution for that....

paper bags!

Now I can root for my team in complete anonymity!

[ackley1]

It all starts in the front office. Too bad we can't get rid of them.

[BengalszoneBilly]

It all starts in the front office. Too bad we can't get rid of them.

True. All failures start at the top! Businesses or corporations don't fail because some 40 hour a week worker mucks up his job! And as far as getting rid of them, you can't. They have the ultimate "No Cut/No Trade" clause ever. Other than writing them with the following message, what can you do?:

Dear Sir,

You suck. I don't mean just a little bit of "suck". I mean to imply your level of suck rivals even the vaccuum found in space! Absolutely nothing sucks more. Please sell the team to someone WITHOUT a lobotomy and knows at least something about how to run an NFL team. Even if it's simply where to park the cars at the stadium! It's still a major upgrade from where we presently stand. Also at this point, there won't be any problem with us fans being "picky" about a possible owner. As long is that owner isn't YOU is the only prerequisite we have!

Sincerely yours,

John Q. Bengalsfan

Everyone feel free to cut and paste the above communique' into your mail program, substitute your name with John Q's, and fire that puppy off to the Bengals front office tomarrow morning! It may not accomplish alot, but at least we've let them know we appreciate how much they suck as owners! A level like that should not go unrecognized! It will go unequalled for all time.

[Kirkendall]

The blaiming Mike Brown routine doesn't apply to this team right now. He's put in tons of $ into this team and has given plenty of control to Marvin. At some point the free pass for Marvin and company has to be taken away from him. The players have got to play, but the coaches have to get the players ready; they clearly weren't ready Sunday.

[wookie]

As for Barb saying he's been jumped on for saying whats being said in this thread...I'll agree. Only, waiting till the team has played some regular season games, gone 0-3 in the division and 1-4 overall makes more sense. Its usually timing that makes these types of comments seem realistic rather than just pesimistic.

BTW - after this weekend I could use some of that Pepto!!!

[BengalszoneBilly]

The blaming Mike Brown routine doesn't apply to this team right now.

I know. Just a little payback for years past when he did "carry the keys" so to speak.

[HoosierCat]

billy:

We need to draft exactly what we need! ***drum roll please*** That need is BIG (as in nothing under 300 pounds) strong defensive lineman who is capable of pressuring the opposing QB! That need is followed by ***drum roll please*** BIG (as in nothing under 250 pounds) strong and fast, run stuffing linebackers!

Quite true -- and nothing we haven't been saying here since January. But that wasn't our big problem yesterday, rather it was our Pop Warner-level offense that couldn't run or catch. That's a huge disappointment considering that the o-line was up and healthy for the first time all year and the only significant missing player was Warrick. Bust on the D all you want, but if it wasn't for them this game would have been 34-0.

The ONLY acceptable position to draft offensively is to address the offensive line. If a really good pick is available for a O-line position, that's fine.

Can't agree there. Certainly we need to look at C and maybe RG -- Willie ain't getting any younger -- but it's looking more and more like Warrick's cooked. If so, we're going to have to find a replacement for him. And we still need a complete TE. We might be able to get two-for-one if we can find a Shockey- or Heap-type TE. Heaven knows we should have a high enough draft pick to get the top one on the board...

[Kirkendall]

Quite true -- and nothing we haven't been saying here since January. But that wasn't our big problem yesterday, rather it was our Pop Warner-level offense that couldn't run or catch.

True our offense stunk, but our defense gave up 449 total yards to Cleveland. The score could have been much worse if it wasn't for the Browns gifts. Either way, both sides should be given equal attention in the problem-with-the-Bengals department.

[jditty47]

TE is a pretty high priority in my book.

[Fab Five]

Good Post

Defense is horrible, 449 yds to the Browns??? Offense was horrible... (Bratkowski is a joke) In order for the Bengals to have a chance in the rest of their games this year they are going to have to put up at least 30 points a game... Which ain't gonna happen. You have a o-coordinator who calls a horrible game... Who won't move Johnson around to get him away from double coverage etc...

Several of us have said all along that Marvin botched things the past few offseasons. Well the proof is in the pudding. I wonder how next yr defense will look... Who will & won't be back and how young we will be on that side of the ball again...

Anyone says that the D will be OK this yr and anywhere near average next yr is kidding therselves. Unless the Bengals get real and dump some real money into getting real players hear in 05.

Droughns will probably go for @ 200 next Monday...

Is it April yet???

[belmontbengal]

If Marvin doesn't spend at LEAST the first 2 rounds on the defensive front seven I will be very very very disappointed. On a related note...did any of you see that Erasmus James fella for Wisconsin the last 2 weeks? He looks like he COULD be the second coming of Jason Taylor. I am no big time scout but the guy was in the backfield all DAY against OSU. We could use a serious pass rushing threat, no question. Naturally, he probly isn't the top need. I haven't followed college football enough to know who the top tackles are out there. I would spend my first rounder on the best run-stuffing, double-team-worthy tackle out there though.

In fact, I wonder if it isn't a bad idea to start talking about who we should look at in the college ranks for the 05 draft. I bet Marvin and company have started...

[HoosierCat]

True our offense stunk, but our defense gave up 449 total yards to Cleveland.  The score could have been much worse if it wasn't for the Browns gifts.  Either way, both sides should be given equal attention in the problem-with-the-Bengals department.

Oh, the D certainly had its breakdowns, especially early -- and not just wth giving up the big pass plays but with stupid penalties. But it offset its own early ineptness with some early big plays, namely K2's score and James' 2 picks. And the D was actually solid coming out of halftime. Not counting Garcia's taking a knee, the Browns had the ball 7 times in the second half. They went 3 and out the first 2 times, punted after 8 plays the third (following a Bengal TO), got a FG on the fourth, and went 3 and out again the fifth.

Meanwhile, the offense did nada, zip, nothing. Three 3 and outs, one 2 and INT, and a 6 play "drive" ending in a missed FG. Take away the Bengals' last drive, in which they went 60 yards against a soft Cleveland D just looking to run out the clock and we had something like 130 yards of total offense for the entire game!

The bottom line, for me anyhow, is that as poor as the defense looked, it fought back from early mistakes, was largely responsible for it being only a 4-point game at the half, and then came out and held the Browns offense down until their second-to-last drive. Had the Bengals offense been able to put together something -- anything! -- they could have won. But they couldn't, so they didn't. And that's as fine an epitaph for this game as I can write.

[ArmyBengal]

I will say this again, Marvin should have stuck to his word this offseason when he said, "Stopping the run and the D-line is our priority this offseason". How did he do this?? Oh yeah, draft a running back #1, not address the D-line in the offseason or draft, and not wrap up any trade to help this KNOWN weakness. This is F**KING pathetic !!! Compare defensive stats to the rest of the NFL, we are the 5th best pass defense in the AFC. Why ?? Because we have given up almost 1000 yards rushing in 5 games. Our defense F**KING blows !! Yes the defensive line has had its issues, however, we all knew offense was going to slide with a young QB. Kitna ?? Give it up, if he goes in, we set ourselves back even further for next year !! Take our lumps now. Its a good thing ML and company said we are looking at 2005 and 2006 as "OUR" years, because it sure as hell isn't 2004. Oh yeah, can we afford a top 5 draft pick with our cap situation ?? Marvin, you had better do something with your GODD**N coaches, they suck to !!! Still a fan to the painful end, but d**n it's hard. P.S. someone on defense please hit the gym and learn to tackle...

WHODEY !!!

[ArmyBengal]

Meant offensive line has its issues !!

WHODEY !!!

[membengal]

Lord knows I have no problems with the above post or sentiments. I gave the team the benefit of the doubt, but five weeks is long enough now to start to come to some conclusions.

Lewis did betray the fan-base when he didn't do what he promised in the off-season, namely to shore up the d-line. Can't come to any other conclusion than that. The betrayal comes into even sharper focus when coupled with his decision to start Palmer ( a decision I supported 100% by the way). But, to make that switch successful, they had to be able to do what Pittsburgh is doing behind Roethlisberger...namely play competent defense and control the ball on the ground. Instead, the defense is a sieve and they are getting nothing on the ground.

The offesive playcalling has been as unimaginative as I have seen around here for awhile, which is saying something given our history.

The game plan was BAD yesterday, and, to the extent the team was "tight", as Lewis said they were, that is HIS fault. And, if you can't loosen them up, then give Kitna a chance to. For all of his faults, he was a clear leader on the field, and the guys held their blocks a little longer for him, and ran harder for him, and caught the ball for him. Right now, they are not doing that for Palmer.

Whole thing is unacceptable, as was Lewis' tone in the press conference. I don't give a flying f#@k how hard they worked, they sucked, tell me that, don't tell me they wanted to win. That is dangerously close to LeBeau-speak, and I can't take it anymore.

That's all for now. They are going to get butchered next Monday night and I am just ill about it. As bad as it is for you fans in Cincinnati, it is 10 times as worse for die-hardw who live elsewhere.

[Kirkendall]

The bottom line, for me anyhow, is that as poor as the defense looked, it fought back from early mistakes, was largely responsible for it being only a 4-point game at the half, and then came out and held the Browns offense down until their second-to-last drive.

The Bengals gave up 37 less yards in the second half. I know you're trying to find positives, but frankly, this team reminded me of the 2-14 team; and it's got me a little pissed myself.

Did you know we ran only 6-times after half-time when we were down by seven? Why does Brat continue to think Carson Palmer is going to lead this team on his own shoulders? He hasn't done it yet, and he won't until there's more stabililty on the play-calling. That's my biggest problem.

[HoosierCat]

The Bengals gave up 37 less yards in the second half.  I know you're trying to find positives, but frankly, this team reminded me of the 2-14 team; and it's got me a little pissed myself.

I'm disappointed myself, but then again I wasn't expecting playoffs this year anyway. What's distressing, at least to me, was the team's continued poor performance despite being the healthiest it's been all year.

I'm really not looking for positives, just stating what happened. The D screwed up early and often, then recovered, scored points on its own and set the offense up in prime field position with turnovers, and it was a 4-point game at the half despite the massive yardage imbalance favoring the Browns. Then the D came out and held the Browns to a total of 3 points on Cleveland's first five drives of the second half (and that despite a Bengals INT). Even with those 3 points a TD by the Bengals ties it up; even a few more first downs takes time off the clock and maybe the Browns don't get those last two drives and their 10 points. Maybe we still lose at the end or lose in OT, but at least they would have had a chance. As it was, the offense earned this L.

Did you know we ran only 6-times after half-time when we were down by seven?  Why does Brat continue to think Carson Palmer is going to lead this team on his own shoulders?  He hasn't done it yet, and he won't until there's more stabililty on the play-calling.  That's my biggest problem.

Yeah, I was fuming about the second-half playcalling, too, especially since it was apparent our receivers and TEs couldn't catch a ball to save their freakin' lives. But in Brat's defense Rudi wasn't exactly lighting 'em up when he did get the ball. Ready or not we have got to get Perry involved...

[Kirkendall]

Yeah, I was fuming about the second-half playcalling, too, especially since it was apparent our receivers and TEs couldn't catch a ball to save their freakin' lives. But in Brat's defense Rudi wasn't exactly lighting 'em up when he did get the ball.

Well I think you pointed out Rudi's struggles right there. If the defense knows we can't move the ball through the air, then why not crush us on the line of scrimmage?

Man, we just played like junk.

[Bengal_Smoov]

Yesterday was the most disappointing loss of the Marvin era, imo. Coming off a bye week, everyone expected the Bengals to play hard and execute. According to Coach Lewis, we played hard but didn't execute. Too many penalities(again) and blow opportunities, i.e. drop passes by Chad"Pepto"Johnson and Kelley Washington, hurt us. I don't think Carson played a bad game at all, no one else on offense showed up. Rudi was unspectular, I would have like to see Perry RUN THE DAMN BALL ONCE. You draft a rb in the 1st rnd and use him as a wr, when we didn't need either, baffles me to no end.

Our defense is the worst in the league, hands down. Frazier should be fired NOW, to send a message to the players that this is not acceptable and you will be replaced if you can't get the job done, simple as that. Marvin needs to wake up and see that if he doesn't make some tough decisions, everything he has worked so hard for will be for not. There is no excuse for a unit to be so constantly horrible. The only game this year were they look good was against Miami, who has by far the worst offense in the NFL. Take away the Miami game and they haven't come close to stopping anyone, it's a shame.

Brat should be shown the door too, imo. His play calling has been suspect for the past 3 weeks. I don't know how many times I saw Carson throwing a 3 yrd pass on 3rd and long, wtf??? Why we are throwing to Kenny Watson who is two yards down field, when we need 8 yards to pick up the first down. Maybe is wasn't entirely Akili's fault..., no it is was, but Brat is still stinking up the joint with the play-calling.

Maybe Marvin should take over both offensive and defensive play-calling duties until he finds someone who is has a friggin' clue, either that or go down because of someone else's incompetence. Frazier and Brat are wearing out their welcomes very quickly.