Bengals @ Lions Gameday Thread

[kingwilly]

2 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

I would venture to say it's hard to find many things in the stats column when judging from the outside looking in.
That's not a slap to the fans, but for the most part, we have no idea what exactly they mean when they say "fit", "scheme", and other terms thrown around.
I may be aware of what they are talking about, but have no idea in the execution of those ideas from their perspective.

For example, maybe they didn't see one of those Centers available when they took Hunt as a fit for the scheme.
Then again, maybe they just didn't have those players rated higher than Hunt and would have been a reach for them in the 2nd round.
By all accounts, it's the latter as Frederick went in the 1st that draft and then the next Center went off the board in the 4th round.

The fact they got a durable, smart Center in the 4th round should be celebrated.
That's not to say he can't improve either.  Who knows, maybe they go Center early next year.
I doubt it though.

Agree with you and Gap. 

Honestly, my root issue is that there is no competition for a guy who is routinely blown out. That sends a message that you can outwardly play badly and still be an unchallenged starter. Not much nuance in that. 

At least bring in a couple guys for camp. 

Also, just saw Bryan Stork is being released by the Pats. Might be worth a look. 

[ArmyBengal]

Hard to say, if you believe what was said in an article on the official site, the Bengals had Bodine targeted and were planning the trade up for him when the 3rd round ended.
Remembering that Bryan Stork had yet to be selected in the 4th round as well, I would have to think there won't be much interest in him.
That and there is chatter about his concussion history. 

Who knows though ??

[AMPHAR]

17 hours ago, GapControl said:

if it's the Dalton era, it's hard to distinguish if those stats are a result of a quick throwing offense or a great pass protecting line.  Hunts stats in no way prove he was a better selection than a 2nd round center would have been.  

I know in watching the games that there are times Dalton screens or dumps off to avoid pressure.  The more of these plays you have in your O, the less you can judge if your Oline can protect long enough on deep outs.  

Probably best to look at 3rd and long only, look at QB hits and such then scrambling etc.. In that situation, you'd think the O would need more time blocking.  Have to look at individual plays and then individual players and judge accordingly.  Hard to find that in a stat column.

 Don't you have to evaluate the Centers taken after Hunt in order to make that determination?

 

 

 

 

 

    

 

[AMPHAR]

2 hours ago, kingwilly said:

Agree with you and Gap. 

Honestly, my root issue is that there is no competition for a guy who is routinely blown out. That sends a message that you can outwardly play badly and still be an unchallenged starter. Not much nuance in that. 

At least bring in a couple guys for camp. 

Also, just saw Bryan Stork is being released by the Pats. Might be worth a look. 

I think you have to realize that the message inside the organization COULD BE different than what you or PFF determine. 

[ArmyBengal]

Real quick.  Anyone want to take a guess when David Andrews (player replacing 4th rounder Bryan Stork) was drafted ??

Hint: It wasn't in the first seven rounds.

[kingwilly]

2 hours ago, AMPHAR said:

I think you have to realize that the message inside the organization COULD BE different than what you or PFF determine. 

Well it would have to be for it to continue as it is. 

 

[ShulaSteakhouse]

 

5 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

Real quick.  Anyone want to take a guess when David Andrews (player replacing 4th rounder Bryan Stork) was drafted ??

Hint: It wasn't in the first seven rounds.

Yeah and the Bengals' won't get a good center again unless they draft one on day one who isn't a reach, and doesn't need time/coaching to develop.  That could be possible next year finally, if Bodine continues to stink up the place.

[ArmyBengal]

My point to that is apparently we aren't the only team that starts players on the o-line that are 4th round picks or later.

[AMPHAR]

14 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

My point to that is apparently we aren't the only team that starts players on the o-line that are 4th round picks or later.

A good point.  

 

[GapControl]

As a fan watching games, I've seen Bodine get destroyed.  Saw the same with Guy-check and Cook ( though Cook was better than Guy-Check). 

I saw Andre Smith get destroyed by Carlos Dunlap last week.  I've thought Andre is a starting player though throughout his career.

i doubt there's a play in football that says, Get destroyed even though we need you to pass block for 3 seconds.  

If there's a similar talent at C when you draft Hunt, you should take him.  If you want to run schemes were C is supposed to get destroyed, that's hard for a fan to know.  That's basically counter-intuitive and is either crazy or genius.

I've also not been down on Alexander because he coached at Michigan and under Jim McNally (spelling) plus he has a decent rep outside of Bengals circles.  I think that if the trade was made for Bodine it means Cook was a mistake, Alexander wanted Bodine, and his rep is now at stake based on how he performs.

So Cook was a mistake, Guy-Check too...  

Do you blame Alexander or the front office for not using higher draft picks on C?

[AMPHAR]

I think the Bengals have it right about position.    The offensive line as a whole is very good.   In reality Bodine isn't individually an average player but isn't so poor he's derailed the offensive system and production to this point.

However  Whit is on a Munoz level currently.  Boling and Z have been very good.  Z at times has been pro bowl level but always seems to get dinged.  Andre Smith has declined since his last Bengal extension but still a very capable starter.  

The transition to the next generation of the line will be interesting and if you dip in quality at other spots then Bodine's poor performance becomes more problematic. 

I

Clarifications:

Bodine was drafted 2014.   Cook missed most of 2012 season with leg/foot injuries.   He suffered another bad foot injury in the last game of 2013.   I can't remember if he tried to play on it in the playoff game vs. SD.    Cook retired after 2013 season sitting on the FA market as damaged goods.

If a fan is unhappy with the construction of the roster,  I don't know why you would blame a positional coach over any Brown relative, Duke Tobin and Marvin Lewis. 

Keep in mind although fans will grind this axe.  There are multiple Bengal o-line cast offs that have gotten financial love from other organizations.    

[ArmyBengal]

How would a fan know who to blame for not taking a Center sooner in the draft and should there even be blame to be placed ??

Knowing who to blame would indicate having some sort of inside understanding of how the team drafts, views prospective players, and runs their schemes.
Without knowing that, I can't say with any certainty that there needs to be someone to place blame on at all.

The situation is what it is.  You can't simply draft a Center instead of taking Hunt in round two.  Go back and look at that draft.
The Cowboys took Frederick in the 1st and then the next Center was picked in the 4th round.  No way to justify that reach.
In the 3rd round that year, we took our current starting safety Shawn Williams.

There are many other players they could have (and with my stellar hindsight, should have) taken when they selected Hunt, but not a Center.
Even looking at drafts since then, who do you give up on the current roster to take a Center no better than what we have ??

REMINDER:  This in no way indicates any type of pleasure with what I've seen from Bodine, only a perspective that there is far more that goes into the decision about what players are drafted then most fans understand, regardless of my displeasure with a particular player.

[GapControl]

8 hours ago, ArmyBengal said:

How would a fan know who to blame for not taking a Center sooner in the draft and should there even be blame to be placed ??

Knowing who to blame would indicate having some sort of inside understanding of how the team drafts, views prospective players, and runs their schemes.
Without knowing that, I can't say with any certainty that there needs to be someone to place blame on at all.

The situation is what it is.  You can't simply draft a Center instead of taking Hunt in round two.  Go back and look at that draft.
The Cowboys took Frederick in the 1st and then the next Center was picked in the 4th round.  No way to justify that reach.
In the 3rd round that year, we took our current starting safety Shawn Williams.

There are many other players they could have (and with my stellar hindsight, should have) taken when they selected Hunt, but not a Center.
Even looking at drafts since then, who do you give up on the current roster to take a Center no better than what we have ??

REMINDER:  This in no way indicates any type of pleasure with what I've seen from Bodine, only a perspective that there is far more that goes into the decision about what players are drafted then most fans understand, regardless of my displeasure with a particular player.

I can't argue there was a pick at Hunts place in that draft.  But here's the NFL's complete C depth chart from OurLads:

http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchartpos/OC

My count comes in at 83 guys listed from 1st to 4th on their respective teams depth chart.  

Heres a list of the top 35 C of 2015.  Bodine comes in at 31.  Good explanation as to why he's ranked there within.

#1 is Weston Richburg Giants pick from 2014 at 43 in the 2nd.

 

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2622926-br-nfl-1000-ranking-the-top-35-centers-from-2015/page/35

 

Even if there wasn't anyone at C to draft Hunts year, the team could have still used that draft pick in trade to get one of those 83 guys (if they were in the league already) knowing that Cook wasn't part of the future anymore.

They've made trades in the past so there's precedent.  

Instead they went with Alexander's choice from the players they had scouted.  

Will we be talking about Bodine in a year or two the same way we talk about Cook and the other failed attempts?

[GapControl]

On 2016年8月27日 at 10:12 AM, GapControl said:

I can't argue there was a pick at Hunts place in that draft.  But here's the NFL's complete C depth chart from OurLads:

http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchartpos/OC

My count comes in at 83 guys listed from 1st to 4th on their respective teams depth chart.  

Heres a list of the top 35 C of 2015.  Bodine comes in at 31.  Good explanation as to why he's ranked there within.

#1 is Weston Richburg Giants pick from 2014 at 43 in the 2nd.

 

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2622926-br-nfl-1000-ranking-the-top-35-centers-from-2015/page/35

 

Even if there wasn't anyone at C to draft Hunts year, the team could have still used that draft pick in trade to get one of those 83 guys (if they were in the league already) knowing that Cook wasn't part of the future anymore.

They've made trades in the past so there's precedent.  

Instead they went with Alexander's choice from the players they had scouted.  

Will we be talking about Bodine in a year or two the same way we talk about Cook and the other failed attempts?

Update on Bodine

as best I saw he played well against the Jags.  I think their star DT didn't play much though.

Anybody else notice him play well or not?

[ArmyBengal]

I didn't record the game to be able to watch again, but you can watch the highlights of the game on Youtube.

There were a couple of things I saw from Bodine on those given plays:

On the TD catch and run by Gio, he appears to block well given that Boling sprung off the line to block on the play.
On Hill's big screen play of the night, he gives a weak punch, but then gets out in front to block for Hill and ended up taking out two guys.
On Hill's TD run, he plugged the middle, but the play didn't go that way.

I don't think he stayed in much after that.  Maybe someone was paying more attention to his play ??
 

[AMPHAR]

Last two preseason games Bodine has been on key blocks for decent gains.    Definitely showing up more positively than any other point in his career to date.

Probably 4 or 5 second level blocks on decent gains in the last two games.   

 

 It's hard to tell how he is performing on routine plays because NFL game pass only has broadcast and not the "all 22".    But a notable previous weak spot of his was on lateral run blocks as he would almost always lose ground in attempting to turn the defender.   It seems he's getting the defender turned and on the positive side of the LOS.   I have noticed that defender have had to run around his block to pursue vs. crossing face.

The big thing will be bull rushes from elite NT/DTs.  That has been his worst spot.   I don't think there's been that many situations this preseason. 

Also Hunt clearly had his best preseason showing this season.  Several pocket pressures and saw his classic one-arm domination bull-rush against an offensive tackle. 

However, to the point made previously center is a low impact position, a high percentage of his plays are non-factors.   He's uncovered and either trying to get to second level on run plays or assisting guards against DTs in pass pro.    If anyone watches Center play via NFL game pass you'll notice how many snaps from a Center are neutral plays/non-factor once the line calls are made and the ball is snapped.  

Edit:  They actually pulled Bodine in a run play against Jacksonville and that simply hasn't happened all that much.    The only other time I can remember that happening was a bootleg against Seattle last season.