Defensive Woes?

[gregcook68]

I'm going to take a shot here and see what anyone else can weigh in with.

I've been listening to some things Adam Jones has been saying, from some different sources I've run across, and, based upon what he has said, I'm puzzled about the defensive woes this season, minus the injuries, tackling issues, and dropped picks, which I'll address here as well.

According to Jones, the fix is simple, and it's about guys being where they are supposed to be and doing their job. He basically alluded to the fact that it's basically the same defensive personnel and the same system that Guenther helped Zimmer design.

Defensively, Jones is probably the one player who is playing the most consistent on defense.

From what I can tell, Jones is a motivator to other players himself.

The problem is, if the defense is basically the same personnel, who know the defensive schemes already, why is there such a difference in the defense from this year to last?

The bad tackling techniques and dropped picks are a mystery, but I know Marvin's philosophy there and I have to believe that they are work on that during the week, and there's not a bunch of new guys on defense that have to be taught fundamental tackling and catching the football.

I hear motivation, but these aren't kids. These are grown men who have playing a system they already know, and already know what it takes to make it work, being motivated as part of that equation.

Having said all of that, could it come down to one of the big factors is how critical it is to have Burfict on the field at 100%? The only reason I'm not mentioning Geno is because they lost him for half the season last year and still did well.

This would all make sense, if there was a big turnover on defense, and a first year DC, who came in from the outside and changed the whole defensive scheme, but that's not what happened.

Any thoughts?

[HoosierCat]

1. Injuries. Geno and Hall haven't been close to 100%. The LBs have been decimated. Thompson has been out, squeezing the DT rotation.

2. Personnel loss. MJ is in Tampa.

3. Lack of development. Hunt is a flop to date. Will Clarke can't even get in the game. Still is just a guy.

4. Regression. Vinny Rey looked all-world last season, now he's all-crap. Peko is running out of gas.

As a result you get what Jones talks about. Guys not knowing what they are doing or trying to do too much. Saving grace is the secondary so far. Bright side is the injury issues are clearing a bit. Thompson is back, Geno is starting to look like himself, and they have a mini-bye after the Browns game and hopefully FNR can get his ass back on the field. Maybe Burfict too.

[gregcook68]

1. Injuries. Geno and Hall haven't been close to 100%. The LBs have been decimated. Thompson has been out, squeezing the DT rotation.

2. Personnel loss. MJ is in Tampa.

3. Lack of development. Hunt is a flop to date. Will Clarke can't even get in the game. Still is just a guy.

4. Regression. Vinny Rey looked all-world last season, now he's all-crap. Peko is running out of gas.

As a result you get what Jones talks about. Guys not knowing what they are doing or trying to do too much. Saving grace is the secondary so far. Bright side is the injury issues are clearing a bit. Thompson is back, Geno is starting to look like himself, and they have a mini-bye after the Browns game and hopefully FNR can get his ass back on the field. Maybe Burfict too.

FNR?

[volcom69]

I think at the beginning of the season we really thought there was so much talent on this defense, now looking at it maybe some guys who we thought were really good just are not.

Guys can't get off blocks, I have the game rewind and watch the all 22 film and I see LBs who don't play there gaps, and guys who are just getting pushed around. I like Peko but he is just not the same player, thank god Thompson is back. Geno is looking better every week!

So far there is no pass rush when rushing 4, they need to blitz more, but they leave other guys exposed. I really wish he would blitz more, and more then just his double A gap blitz. Paul should just trust his guys and see what happens, he needs to get pressure.

I'm not sure there is an easy fix at all, but at some point Marvin has to see what he has got in Kirkpatrick and Dennard, and I'll continue to wait for that day.

[HoosierCat]

First Name Rey.

[gregcook68]

First Name Rey.

Gotcha.

[ArmyBengal]

They need to find a way to get pressure. A Geno at 100% goes a long way in that happening and helping the others.

I thought Guenther said he was going to be blitzing even more than last year. Did I hear that incorrectly?

[HoosierCat]

I think some of the lack of blitzes can be chalked up to how well the secondary is playing. Hard to commit a corner or safety to blitz when you need them back there to cover for your average line and makeshift LBs. And none of the backers are really pass rush types. My question is, where's Clarke? He was pegged as a situational pass rusher after the draft. Use him the same way they used Geathers back when he had his big year in that role.

Clarke is my candidate for the guy who gets to play late in the year and has a big impact and we're all complaining about how the coaches won't put the best player on the field. I would have said Hill but thanks to Gio getting hurt the complaints have already begun!

[ArmyBengal]

Was Clarke really that raw coming out of college?

By that I mean that Geathers and a mostly ineffective Hunt are keeping him from getting snaps.

[TJJackson]

I would not agree that Margus is a flop

He even had a sack in the Jax game despite VERY limited snaps

/>http://prod.static.bengals.clubs.nfl.com/assets/docs/gamebooks/reg-week-9-gamebook.pdf

This is a guy we knew came in as raw as raw gets and will need time

[redsbengalsbucks]

I would not agree that Margus is a flop

He even had a sack in the Jax game despite VERY limited snaps

/>http://prod.static.bengals.clubs.nfl.com/assets/docs/gamebooks/reg-week-9-gamebook.pdf

This is a guy we knew came in as raw as raw gets and will need time

I was thinking the same thing TJ. He deserves some more snaps and a chance to show what he has, before he can be labeled a bust.

[HoosierCat]

Was Clarke really that raw coming out of college?

By that I mean that Geathers and a mostly ineffective Hunt are keeping him from getting snaps.

Clarke was a three year starter in college and had four years as a prep player at LB and TE before that. There's no reason to baby him, all you are doing is slowing down his development. He played both weak and strong sides as a college DE and did well at both.

But in Cincy, he sits. Because Cincy.

[HoosierCat]

I would not agree that Margus is a flop

He even had a sack in the Jax game despite VERY limited snaps

/>http://prod.static.bengals.clubs.nfl.com/assets/docs/gamebooks/reg-week-9-gamebook.pdf

This is a guy we knew came in as raw as raw gets and will need time

I'm happy for Margus but his sack came in garbage time at the end of the game. I still hope he breaks out, just not holding my breath.

[redsbengalsbucks]

I would not agree that Margus is a flop

He even had a sack in the Jax game despite VERY limited snaps

/>http://prod.static.bengals.clubs.nfl.com/assets/docs/gamebooks/reg-week-9-gamebook.pdf

This is a guy we knew came in as raw as raw gets and will need time

I'm happy for Margus but his sack came in garbage time at the end of the game. I still hope he breaks out, just not holding my breath.

He still has played decent when given snaps, he just does not see the field that often.

[ArmyBengal]

#1. I said Hunt was mostly ineffective at this point, not a flop. His ineffectiveness may be for a myriad of reasons.

#2. Clarke may or may not be the next best thing, but I remember them taking their time with MJ as well coming out of college.

My thing is that i'm surprised they haven't at least tried to get them involved in more snaps.

Geathers and Dunlap are clearly the starters in their minds, but they should really make sure they know what they have in Hunt and Clarke.

I don't want to see them take a DE in the first round because they aren't sure at that point. Geathers isn't long term.

[gregcook68]

#1. I said Hunt was mostly ineffective at this point, not a flop. His ineffectiveness may be for a myriad of reasons.

#2. Clarke may or may not be the next best thing, but I remember them taking their time with MJ as well coming out of college.

My thing is that i'm surprised they haven't at least tried to get them involved in more snaps.

Geathers and Dunlap are clearly the starters in their minds, but they should really make sure they know what they have in Hunt and Clarke.

I don't want to see them take a DE in the first round because they aren't sure at that point. Geathers isn't long term.

If no one was hurt and everybody rolling at 100% I could understand it, but that's not the real world right now.

[ArmyBengal]

Could understand what? Getting them more snaps?

If so, that's something that should be happening regardless of injury status.

[gregcook68]

Could understand what? Getting them more snaps?

If so, that's something that should be happening regardless of injury status.

I could understand the reluctance of wanting to play them much if everyone was 100% and clicking, but that's not where it is right now.

[ArmyBengal]

Gotcha.

I suppose they will argue that Geathers and Dunlap are healthy, but that should preclude them from getting those guys snaps.

I wish that would change sooner rather than later.

[gregcook68]

Gotcha.

I suppose they will argue that Geathers and Dunlap are healthy, but that should preclude them from getting those guys snaps.

I wish that would change sooner rather than later.

Is it possible Marvin, being old school, is still hanging on to the days when rookies, even QBs, sat for a year or 2 learning?

That USED to be the rule of thumb, but there is just too many teams now and positions to fill now.

[Scottishbengal]

Is it possible Marvin, being old school, is still hanging on to the days when rookies..... sat for a year or 2 learning?

Not the case with Bodine

[kingwilly]

I think they hold on to some guys way too long. Leon Hall had both his achilles blow up. And now folks seem surprised hes not as good/effective as he used to be.

He should have been cut the moment they drafted Dennard. Cold, but the business side of the NFL is a raw reality.

They should have dumped Peko, too, and then they'd have had the cash for MJ. That they botched up these moves is boggling.

The way I see it, the D misses MJ.

[gregcook68]

Is it possible Marvin, being old school, is still hanging on to the days when rookies..... sat for a year or 2 learning?

Not the case with Bodine

Maybe he felt he had no choice at that particular position?

[gregcook68]

I think they hold on to some guys way too long. Leon Hall had both his achilles blow up. And now folks seem surprised hes not as good/effective as he used to be.

He should have been cut the moment they drafted Dennard. Cold, but the business side of the NFL is a raw reality.

They should have dumped Peko, too, and then they'd have had the cash for MJ. That they botched up these moves is boggling.

The way I see it, the D misses MJ.

I wonder if MJ might not have second thoughts with his 1-7 season so far, thinking maybe he could have made ends meet with the 40 million the Bengals offered him, even if he had to eat macaroni and cheese for dinner.

To each his own, but I would have rather taken the 40 million and stayed on a winning franchise. I hope he's enjoying whatever that extra money bought him, because he can't be having football fun there.

[HoosierCat]

I was browsing the football outsiders DVOA rankings last night and was surprised to see the Bengals defense at 14. But looking at other teams' numbers it turned out that was mostly because this seems to be shaping up as a horrible year for defenses league-wide. For its defensive rankings, FO's DVOA numbers are better the more negative they are and only 12 teams have negative (good) defensive ratings. At a rating of 1.1%, the Bengals actually have the second-best bad defense in the league.

Not sure what the problem is everywhere else, but it looks like in Cincy that our eyes aren't lying: the d-line blows goats. The line ranks 31st in stopping the run and 26th in pressuring the QB. Meanwhile the defense ranks in the top 10 in covering all WRs and TEs. The one receiving weakness is covering RBs, where they rank 22. That probably speaks to our makeshift LB corps.

In case anyone wondered, the offense ranks 15th. Oddly, for all the difficulty they seemed to have had running the ball, the Bengals rank 6th rushing league-wide and boast three players in the top-10 in rushing at their positions: Dalton (9 among QBs), Sanu (7 among WRs) and Hill (4 among RBs). And the o-line is just outside the top 10 (11) in run-blocking.

Again, though, that lofty ranking has more to do with poor run games elsewhere than any great success on Cincy's part. For offensive rankings, DVOA is better when it's positive and only eight teams have positively-ranked run games (and that counts Chicago at 0.0%).

It's a weird year out there.