State of the Bengals

[kingwilly]

I finally got a chance to look at the Bengals free agents for 2014 and 2015.

Funny thing I found is how they drafted in 2013, seemingly preparing for the losses of these two coming years.

Once looking at that, I decided to look at the free agents for 2016 and OUCH do they need to look at things.

2016 includes: Hall, Big Dre, Whit, Nelson, Cook, Geathers, Kirkpatrick, Zeitler, Pacman, Sanu, Still, Thompson, M. Jones, and Iloka.

I think that's why CB is viewed as such a huge need for this draft and why OT shouldn't be far behind.

DT and the safety spot also will need to be addressed with the OG spot as well.

This team has a ton of starting guys coming due either THIS year or in the next two.

If they can't bring Collins back, I think OT becomes a bigger need and I don't see Hawkinson or Fragel being the answer.

So i'm going to go with CB in the first unless Collins leaves and then I will say OT in the first (Zack Martin maybe) and CB in the second.

Safety needs to be addressed because even if Williams turns into Crocker jr., the depth is a concern for me.

TE also can't be ignored with Alex Smith up now and Gresham next year. Maybe Charles gets moved permanently to TE ??

Understanding that it's still early in the game, i'm about ready to take a stab at a mock draft.

Honestly, and its not going to be a popular response, this is why 3 years of Dalton (plus a 4th for sure) might end up having just wasted one of the most talented rosters in the NFL. sucks, huh?

more than half those above will be cut, or will be signed elsewhere. I bet only 3-5 of them stay (kirkpatrick, Zeitler, Sanu, maybe Jones and Iloka)

here's hoping 2014 is the year!!!!!

[HoosierCat]

Honestly, and its not going to be a popular response, this is why 3 years of Dalton (plus a 4th for sure) might end up having just wasted one of the most talented rosters in the NFL. sucks, huh?

Alternatively, it also might be the case that Dalton is the only reason one of the NFL's most over-rated rosters got to the playoffs for three straight years. Take Army's 2016 list:

2016 includes: Hall, Big Dre, Whit, Nelson, Cook, Geathers, Kirkpatrick, Zeitler, Pacman, Sanu, Still, Thompson, M. Jones, and Iloka.

Hall is now on Achilles tear No. 2 in 3 years and you've predicted he is finished. Moobs played up to his potential once, in his contract year last year. Whit has been on the down slope for two seasons now. Cook and Geathers are two fan favorite cuts. Kirkpatrick is, to date, a bust. Pacman is aging and still can';t stay out of offseason trouble. Sanu was a disappointment this season. Still hasn't done anything. Thompson stepped in for Atkins strongly to begin with, but wore down quickly and by the playoff game was getting abused.

Basically from the list you have Marvin Jones, Zeitler, Iloka and Nelson. And arguably Zeitler regressed this past season. Hopefully it was just a sophomore slump. Of those four, only Jones really stood out.

Could QB be upgraded? Sure -- and all but a handful of other teams would say the same thing. But looking just at the Bengals offense, I see an over-rated o-line, an over-rated receiving corps (with the exception of Jones and INCLUDING Green), an ill-used collection of RBs and an incredibly over-rated pair of tight ends (tho a case can be made for the jury still being out on Eifert).

Hue has his work cut out for him. But I think he's the right man for the job.

[gregcook68]

Honestly, and its not going to be a popular response, this is why 3 years of Dalton (plus a 4th for sure) might end up having just wasted one of the most talented rosters in the NFL. sucks, huh?

Alternatively, it also might be the case that Dalton is the only reason one of the NFL's most over-rated rosters got to the playoffs for three straight years. Take Army's 2016 list:

2016 includes: Hall, Big Dre, Whit, Nelson, Cook, Geathers, Kirkpatrick, Zeitler, Pacman, Sanu, Still, Thompson, M. Jones, and Iloka.

Hall is now on Achilles tear No. 2 in 3 years and you've predicted he is finished. Moobs played up to his potential once, in his contract year last year. Whit has been on the down slope for two seasons now. Cook and Geathers are two fan favorite cuts. Kirkpatrick is, to date, a bust. Pacman is aging and still can';t stay out of offseason trouble. Sanu was a disappointment this season. Still hasn't done anything. Thompson stepped in for Atkins strongly to begin with, but wore down quickly and by the playoff game was getting abused.

Basically from the list you have Marvin Jones, Zeitler, Iloka and Nelson. And arguably Zeitler regressed this past season. Hopefully it was just a sophomore slump. Of those four, only Jones really stood out.

Could QB be upgraded? Sure -- and all but a handful of other teams would say the same thing. But looking just at the Bengals offense, I see an over-rated o-line, an over-rated receiving corps (with the exception of Jones and INCLUDING Green), an ill-used collection of RBs and an incredibly over-rated pair of tight ends (tho a case can be made for the jury still being out on Eifert).

Hue has his work cut out for him. But I think he's the right man for the job.

To add to this, how many of those mentioned above that were labeled overrated or underwhelming, could benefit from the fiery style that Jackson may bring, especially after 3 years of Gruden's passive lackadaisical approach?

That, in and of itself MAY make a difference!

Time will tell.

[HoosierCat]

To add to this, how many of those mentioned above that were labeled overrated or underwhelming, could benefit from the fiery style that Jackson may bring, especially after 3 years of Gruden's passive lackadaisical approach?

That's what I'm hoping for all concerned (including Dalton). Neither Brat nor Jay were in-your-face kind of guys. I think Hue will demand more out of them.

[kingwilly]

To add to this, how many of those mentioned above that were labeled overrated or underwhelming, could benefit from the fiery style that Jackson may bring, especially after 3 years of Gruden's passive lackadaisical approach?

That's what I'm hoping for all concerned (including Dalton). Neither Brat nor Jay were in-your-face kind of guys. I think Hue will demand more out of them.

Agree with all that's mentioned. My concern is centered on who will be the next man up in the spots that have turnover, and if Dalton and Hue make it work. Those are the biggest issues. If it does not culminate in 2014, then 2015 is a rebuilding effort.

[kingwilly]

Honestly, and its not going to be a popular response, this is why 3 years of Dalton (plus a 4th for sure) might end up having just wasted one of the most talented rosters in the NFL. sucks, huh?

Alternatively, it also might be the case that Dalton is the only reason one of the NFL's most over-rated rosters got to the playoffs for three straight years. Take Army's 2016 list:

2016 includes: Hall, Big Dre, Whit, Nelson, Cook, Geathers, Kirkpatrick, Zeitler, Pacman, Sanu, Still, Thompson, M. Jones, and Iloka.

Hall is now on Achilles tear No. 2 in 3 years and you've predicted he is finished. Moobs played up to his potential once, in his contract year last year. Whit has been on the down slope for two seasons now. Cook and Geathers are two fan favorite cuts. Kirkpatrick is, to date, a bust. Pacman is aging and still can';t stay out of offseason trouble. Sanu was a disappointment this season. Still hasn't done anything. Thompson stepped in for Atkins strongly to begin with, but wore down quickly and by the playoff game was getting abused.

Basically from the list you have Marvin Jones, Zeitler, Iloka and Nelson. And arguably Zeitler regressed this past season. Hopefully it was just a sophomore slump. Of those four, only Jones really stood out.

Could QB be upgraded? Sure -- and all but a handful of other teams would say the same thing. But looking just at the Bengals offense, I see an over-rated o-line, an over-rated receiving corps (with the exception of Jones and INCLUDING Green), an ill-used collection of RBs and an incredibly over-rated pair of tight ends (tho a case can be made for the jury still being out on Eifert).

Hue has his work cut out for him. But I think he's the right man for the job.

Hall - done/cap casualty

Geathers - probably will be kept, won't be expensive and still plays hard, is a leader, even if not that great.

Moobs - he's played well. 2013 might not have been 100% of 2012 but he was very good.

Pacman - was solid in this scheme but could still be a casualty this year. the draft and progress of Hall will be telling. I predict 2 of the vets are goners (Hall and Pac, or Hall and Newman). Kirk, Newman, Ghee, r1 Rookie, CLH, maybe a vet FA.

Cook - Robinson is a better C than Cook. Kyle is an Alexander pet. Actually, Cook would probably be resigned for this reason.

Sanu - one way to look at it is he's only as good as the guy chucking the rock. Though despite being lost in a myriad of weapons, still caught almost 50 passes. a good 3rd WR.

Still - agree, bust-esque.

Thompson - agree, ran out of gas. He's young, and worth keeping in rotation with Atkins coming back.

Iloka - I put him in the group with Jones. Not as flashy but I don't recall cussing my TV screaming Iloka the way we'd done with scrub safeties like Ohalete, Mavin White, Kim Herring, Mark Roman, etc. etc. Heck, Iloka looked downright great.

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I think my point is, once this core group is left to dissipate in the wind, we will be looking back at an Elite D (despite your protestations, this is an elite D), and see what could have been if the QB/Scheme (I'm agreeing/conceding it's not ALL on the QB, because you are correct it's not) had been just a bit better.

As it is, maybe MJ is gone this year, meaning Gilberry/Hunt and a rookie will be opposite Dunlap. With Atkins back, maybe that is sufficient but I don't see the D being as dominant past this year.

[HoosierCat]

I think my point is, once this core group is left to dissipate in the wind, we will be looking back at an Elite D (despite your protestations, this is an elite D), and see what could have been if the QB/Scheme (I'm agreeing/conceding it's not ALL on the QB, because you are correct it's not) had been just a bit better.

As it is, maybe MJ is gone this year, meaning Gilberry/Hunt and a rookie will be opposite Dunlap. With Atkins back, maybe that is sufficient but I don't see the D being as dominant past this year.

Well, MJ may be gone, but is that really a big loss? Recall, he racked up his big numbers in 2012 mainly by abusing a backup tackle in DC. This past season, he got the QB just 3.5 times, and only once after Atkins was hurt. If I was giving out an award for the most over-rated Bengals defender, he'd be the hands-down winner.

As for the defense overall, I think it's good, but it really only pushes toward elite with Atkins in there. As a unit it's excellent but lacks the one or two special-scary players (think Ed Reed + Ray Lewis in their prime) that make offenses almost afraid to take a snap. Burfict is a candidate for one of those guys, but he isn't there yet, and that may be a scheme thing. I still think he ought to be at MLB.

[HoosierCat]

Speaking of Burfict here's an interesting blurb from Hobson (emphasis added)

"It's bad losing Zim because he's a great coach and I got along with him very well," Burfict said. "It's awesome Coach G got the job. He knows the defense as much as Zim and they have good qualities from each other. My job is to be better than last year and help him out. There's no setback. We can keep it going. I don't know if it's the same defense or how we're going to go. But everyone gets along well with Coach G and it should be good."

Guenther is serious, too. Enough that he plans to spend some R&R talking to Burfict about what he envisions for next season. He already wants Burfict to join him as a coach after his playing days, but he needs a little bit of both in '14.

"Tez knows me from coaching the linebackers and knowing what my expectations are and as the leader of the defense he can help me with that," Guenther said.

[Walrus]

I think my point is, once this core group is left to dissipate in the wind, we will be looking back at an Elite D (despite your protestations, this is an elite D), and see what could have been if the QB/Scheme (I'm agreeing/conceding it's not ALL on the QB, because you are correct it's not) had been just a bit better.

As it is, maybe MJ is gone this year, meaning Gilberry/Hunt and a rookie will be opposite Dunlap. With Atkins back, maybe that is sufficient but I don't see the D being as dominant past this year.

Well, MJ may be gone, but is that really a big loss? Recall, he racked up his big numbers in 2012 mainly by abusing a backup tackle in DC. This past season, he got the QB just 3.5 times, and only once after Atkins was hurt. If I was giving out an award for the most over-rated Bengals defender, he'd be the hands-down winner.

As for the defense overall, I think it's good, but it really only pushes toward elite with Atkins in there. As a unit it's excellent but lacks the one or two special-scary players (think Ed Reed + Ray Lewis in their prime) that make offenses almost afraid to take a snap. Burfict is a candidate for one of those guys, but he isn't there yet, and that may be a scheme thing. I still think he ought to be at MLB.

Burfict is definitely one of those "special-scary" guys. Atkins is, too, obviously. I'd argue that Dunlap is as well. Round that out with a bunch of "solid-to-pretty-darn-scary" guys (Gilberry, R Nelson, J Harrison, A Jones, V Rey, D Peko, R Maualuga, I'm sure I'm forgetting a few) and I'd say our Defense will compare pretty favorably to any of the best you want to mention.

[HoosierCat]

I like the defense and yes, it stacks up well. But to me it still lacks the fearsomeness of, say, the Ravens in their Super Bowl prime. With Atkins in there that changes a bit, because he does give the D an explosive quality and is one of those rare players who indeed does make the guys around him better.

[kingwilly]

I like the defense and yes, it stacks up well. But to me it still lacks the fearsomeness of, say, the Ravens in their Super Bowl prime. With Atkins in there that changes a bit, because he does give the D an explosive quality and is one of those rare players who indeed does make the guys around him better.

On that fearsome list, I really only see Atkins and Burfict.

The "almosts" for me include Dunlap and Nelson. previously Hall.

after that, guys like Rey, Pacman, Newman, Peko, Gilberry are very good but not up on the other tiers.

Guys who "could" get there include DreKirk, Iloka, Hunt and Vinny Rey. Just need to see more and more consistently.

[ArmyBengal]

I was looking at another link (can't remember where) and clicked about the thoughts of replacing MJ with Jared Allen from the Vikings.

Wish I could remember where the hell I saw it, but I must admit I was intrigued.

Obviously, they will need to address the position should MJ leave (which I think he will) and Allen shouldn't cost them NEAR the amount that MJ would.

Considering the rotation of players we have at the position and teaming him with Geno on the inside (hoping he's 100%) he could still be a force.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting thought process and there isn't much else to discuss right now.

[HoosierCat]

Maybe here Army?

/>http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2014/01/13/nfl-free-agency-top-five-potential-suitors-for-jared-allen/

Not much to chew on there but the Bengals do make some sense. Of the other teams, only the (arguably) Bears and Broncos look like 2014 playoff threats, and the Bears' D had a lot more issues than pass rush last season. The Broncos ought to have cap space, especially if they let Champ Bailey go, I think his number is something like $10 million. But they also have guys like Knowshon, Decker and Rodgers-Cromartie to re-sign. How much are they willing to pay for a 32-year-old DE on the back side of his career?

If MJ leaves I would definitely kick Allen's tires. Maybe two years, $6 million, with incentives that could bump it to $7-8? Hard to see him doing much better, at least on a per year basis. Heck, Dumervil "only" got about $5 million per last year from Baltimore.

[ArmyBengal]

I just look at what the Bengals rotation currently looks like and what they produced.

They still have guys like Dunlap and Gilberry who had more sacks in 2013 than MJ did.

Get Geno back in and add a guy like Allen, who won't cost them dearly and still put up 11.5 sacks last season at 31 years old and I think they are on to something.

Like I said, I just found the thought intriguing from the standpoint of what the Bengals should do moving forward.

I also think that would free up the draft and allow Hunt to be brought along for another season.

Two very big things in my book.

For what it's worth, I mentioned a while ago that if Zimmer got a HC gig that MJ would probably follow.

With Allen being a FA in Minny, it makes that thought even more plausible.

[COB]

I wonder what Jared Allen's thoughts on staying in Minnesota are now that Zim is HC. Probably he's more inclined to listen to their offers, seeing as how Zim is a defensive guy, and sort of the anti-Leslie Frazier. Zim's coaching style, ie discipline, accountability, hostility, is something Allen would not be averse to embracing. He might just stay.

[Walrus]

I wonder what Jared Allen's thoughts on staying in Minnesota are now that Zim is HC. Probably he's more inclined to listen to their offers, seeing as how Zim is a defensive guy, and sort of the anti-Leslie Frazier. Zim's coaching style, ie discipline, accountability, hostility, is something Allen would not be averse to embracing. He might just stay.

I think they're both avid hunters, too. I could see them getting along famously.

[ArmyBengal]

Yeah, but there's that old saying about guys wanting to go out on top.

Whether you think the Bengals will get there in the next year or two is one thing.

Thinking the Vikings will be is quite another, Zim or not.

His chances would be better here.

[COB]

Good point, Allen might be looking for his best chance to get in the playoffs. That will put us in a pool of about 8 teams that he'll likely consider.

[Scottishbengal]

Good point, Allen might be looking for his best chance to get in the playoffs. That will put us in a pool of about 8 teams that he'll likely consider.

I like the idea of Allen in stripes, good player/leader and allows the younger talent to develop behind him .... would be a smart move in my book, but and it's a big BUT (schoolboy snigger) the Bengals don't have a great record in attracting decent FA signings

[HoosierCat]

OK, while we're in "state of" mode, how about the state of bengals.com?

I swear, every redesign is uglier than the last.

[combatbengal]

Sorry if I seem skeptical of our future but year after year, we get our hopes up only to be crushed and disappointed. Our drafts have gotten better and better over the years. On paper we seem to look like contenders and yet year after year, we’re let down! We drafted Carson Palmer, the Heisman trophy winner, thinking he would be the answer! We built weapons around him and never won a playoff game. Although I do think we would have won the Super Bowl if the Steeler hadn’t broken his leg! Palmer left for unknown reason and even though I can’t stand him now for quitting on us, he must have seen something that would prevent us from moving forward. Then we draft Dalton, which I thought was a great pick. Put weapons around him and once again we end up with the same results, no playoff win. On paper we seem to always look phenomenal but when it comes to executing on the field, we always come up short. So why would this upcoming season be any different than the years of the past? We’ve got the same GM, same HC, and have promoted from within to fill key coaching positions. I hope and pray that they prove me wrong. What we need is a Payton Manning – a guy that can provide leadership in the locker room, on the practice field and in games. We need a Ray Lewis who can do the same. We need a Bill Walsh figure to lead this team…

There are games that we should be dominating and yet we seem to play to the level of that team and end up losing. We allow our so called super stars to play below the level that they are capable of. Example the year we had TO, the ball was thrown to him and the defender stepped in front of him and picked it off. TO acted like it was touch football and tapped the defender, didn’t attempt to make a tackle. Yes I know that this was a few years ago, but it happens every season! For some strange reason we resigned Maualuga who continues to forget the basic fundamentals of how to tackle. We resigned Tate to return punts for us and he continues to make bad decisions, give up the football, etc. And so on and So on.

Is this our year? Time will only tell but I’m not getting my hopes up.

[ArmyBengal]

I didn't even realize they made any changes as I don't go there often.

Now that I have, I can't say as I like it much. I prefer the darker color layout.

The stripes on either side look pink. It's annoyingly bright.

Sort of like on the forum here. I go with the Bengalszone_Dark.

[HoosierCat]

The stripes on either side look pink.

Good, I'm not crazy because that was my first thought too. Blech.

[HoosierCat]

There are games that we should be dominating and yet we seem to play to the level of that team and end up losing. We allow our so called super stars to play below the level that they are capable of.

On that note, as the board's resident AJ Green hater, I would be remiss if I didn't flag this from a Coley Harvey post yesterday.

Green's routes have been an issue in Cincinnati recently. Many times this season he would ad lib by either cutting off or extending routes on options he thought Bengals quarterback Andy Dalton also saw. The improvisation would lead to what routinely looked like poor, non-fundamental routes on his part and underthrows and overthrows by Dalton. It all also led to interceptions.

One of the relatively few dings on Green coming out of college was a need to run better routes. That it's still a problem three years in is...irritating.

[skyline]

The stripes on either side look pink.

Good, I'm not crazy because that was my first thought too. Blech.

Still sucks, but I actually think it's a very slight improvement. At least they got rid of the inexplicable neon green from the last design.

Very seriously, though, the site looks (and always has looked) like it was made by an amateur.