The Marvin Lewis problem

[Stripes]

Y'all knew threads like this would appear. Here we are. There's an eery degree of unspoken certainty throughout Bengaldom that the chance of Lewis being fired is very low. So, based upon everything we've observed in the last 11 seasons, where does that leave us?

What implications does his continued presence within this franchise have upon your ability to follow them, if any?

I am not personally attacking him or even criticizing him here. I am just asking the question. Because I've asked myself over and over since yesterday afternoon.

[gregcook68]

Again, let me say that I have no clue what is going on behind closed doors so I can only base it on what I see in other teams.

I think, if I were Brown, I would do like the Eagles owner did with Andy Reid. The owner said at the beginning of the Reid's last season that if certain expectations weren't met, those unmet expectations would be unacceptable, which I think is a very fair way to handle things.

I would make the expectations to be a division title, sealing at least one home game in the playoffs, and a minimum of one playoff win.

I also base that on the Falcons. They gave Smith and Ryan four tries before they won a playoff game, just so happens that they also had the best combined NFL season record to go along with that.

Next year will be both Marvin and Andy's last contract year and possible 4th attempt at the playoffs.

As far as the new OC, I don't know enough about other teams and coaches to suggest anyone. I do think that the new OC may make just enough difference but only time would tell.

[COB]

I know people are screaming for Marvin's head but I'm not one of them. Just a personal bias I have, I like Marvin and I don't think there is some inherent flaw in the way he coaches that precludes him from winning playoff games.

New OC, maybe new QB, I think good things could happen.

Also, though I've said it before it bears repeating now, AJ Green is not going to stay here if they extend Andy.

[ArmyBengal]

Lets look at the 2014 opponents:

The typical AFCN teams account for 6 games.

Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville, and Indy.

Atlanta, Carolina, Tampa Bay, and Atlanta.

Denver and New England as the other first place teams.

When I look at this roster as it stands, I would make a VERY early prediction of 9-7 with a game cushion in either direction.

The team is still too talented to lose to really poor teams consistently.

If they bounce a game or two to the plus side, they may find themselves back in the playoffs without much issue.

Winning a game in the playoffs is still the biggest question to me.

I'll go with "Make the playoffs".

[kingwilly]

Again, let me say that I have no clue what is going on behind closed doors so I can only base it on what I see in other teams.

I think, if I were Brown, I would do like the Eagles owner did with Andy Reid. The owner said at the beginning of the Reid's last season that if certain expectations weren't met, those unmet expectations would be unacceptable, which I think is a very fair way to handle things.

I would make the expectations to be a division title, sealing at least one home game in the playoffs, and a minimum of one playoff win.

I also base that on the Falcons. They gave Smith and Ryan four tries before they won a playoff game, just so happens that they also had the best combined NFL season record to go along with that.

Next year will be both Marvin and Andy's last contract year and possible 4th attempt at the playoffs.

As far as the new OC, I don't know enough about other teams and coaches to suggest anyone. I do think that the new OC may make just enough difference but only time would tell.

I agree with this as the way they will probably handle it. Mike Brown has shown some backbone at times, placing pressure when deemed needed.

It also does align with the contract status of Lewis and Dalton. It also makes sense with the talent that will still be here, especially on defense, where the probable departure is Michael Johnson, and maybe even guys like Newman, Hall, and Geathers.

[ArmyBengal]

Again, I like Marvin Lewis, but it's to the point of one last season.

I have wanted him to win since coming here, but he hasn't.

Make it happen. For God's sake, make it happen.

Just one freakin' Super Bowl before I die.

[gregcook68]

Again, let me say that I have no clue what is going on behind closed doors so I can only base it on what I see in other teams.

I think, if I were Brown, I would do like the Eagles owner did with Andy Reid. The owner said at the beginning of the Reid's last season that if certain expectations weren't met, those unmet expectations would be unacceptable, which I think is a very fair way to handle things.

I would make the expectations to be a division title, sealing at least one home game in the playoffs, and a minimum of one playoff win.

I also base that on the Falcons. They gave Smith and Ryan four tries before they won a playoff game, just so happens that they also had the best combined NFL season record to go along with that.

Next year will be both Marvin and Andy's last contract year and possible 4th attempt at the playoffs.

As far as the new OC, I don't know enough about other teams and coaches to suggest anyone. I do think that the new OC may make just enough difference but only time would tell.

I agree with this as the way they will probably handle it. Mike Brown has shown some backbone at times, placing pressure when deemed needed.

It also does align with the contract status of Lewis and Dalton. It also makes sense with the talent that will still be here, especially on defense, where the probable departure is Michael Johnson, and maybe even guys like Newman, Hall, and Geathers.

Assuming you are speaking from an 'age' standpoint for those 3? (Newman, Hall, and Geathers)

Don't know enough about their plans on the line with Hunt and such, but thought Johnson did well this year, but I also know about the money situation as well.

[walzav29]

I know people are screaming for Marvin's head but I'm not one of them. Just a personal bias I have, I like Marvin and I don't think there is some inherent flaw in the way he coaches that precludes him from winning playoff games.

New OC, maybe new QB, I think good things could happen.

Also, though I've said it before it bears repeating now, AJ Green is not going to stay here if they extend Andy.

AJ really has no say. He will get tagged. He's not going anywhere.

[ArmyBengal]

AJ has one year (2014) left on his rookie deal and a club option to extend him (2015).

After that, he would certainly be up for getting tagged. That's the next three seasons right there.

I simply don't think you make people happy by paying them peanuts when they are truly deserving.

I know it's million dollar peanuts, but when comparing it really is.

Only Randy Moss has more receiving yards in his first three seasons in the league.

AJ should get extended, but I like his response when asked about it.

"Everybody would love for that to happen. But it is what it is. I’m not in any financial debt, so no rush."

[HoosierCat]

I'm really not sure what AJ is worth at this point. His rookie year he was right up there with Calvin Johnson in the conversation for best receiver in the league. This year, on FO's DVOA rankings he came in ranked 21 among all WRs. And before someone says, well, he has Dalton throwing to him, Marvin Jones was 10th.

[Sea Ray]

I'm really not sure what AJ is worth at this point. His rookie year he was right up there with Calvin Johnson in the conversation for best receiver in the league. This year, on FO's DVOA rankings he came in ranked 21 among all WRs. And before someone says, well, he has Dalton throwing to him, Marvin Jones was 10th.

I don't know the stats but it seems to me that AJ dropped a lot of passes this year

[ArmyBengal]

Yeah, I know he dropped more than his fair share and was certainly part of a handful of turnovers attributed to Dalton.

That being said, I don't want to see the scenario where he is no longer in stripes.

[HoosierCat]

I want to keep Green too, but at what cost? Clearly he isn't playing at a level that would justify Megatron money. Off the top of my head I would say that Mike Wallace's deal, 5 years $60 million seems more like the right ballpark. He could get more if he steps up his game.

[COB]

Marvin Jones out competed AJ by a mile. It was an eye opener for me watching Marvin play.

[gregcook68]

I want to keep Green too, but at what cost? Clearly he isn't playing at a level that would justify Megatron money. Off the top of my head I would say that Mike Wallace's deal, 5 years $60 million seems more like the right ballpark. He could get more if he steps up his game.

Meg contributed to losing a big game for the Lions against Baltimore. What, 3 dropped passes?

[kingwilly]

Honestly, I think Green's problems are minor compared to Dalton's. And I think to a large extent those issue trace back to Dalton's limits and Gruden's scheme.

Green does seriously need to work very hard to overcome his drops, his lack of "fight" for contested balls, and find some edge to his game. He needs to bring a hint of a chip on his shoulder.

Green is second all time in yards after 3 years, behind only Moss in the Vikings pass happy system. He's be primarily targeted in the scheme, double covered, and has the equivalent of Kitna throwing to him.

If I'm in an ER triage to treat the Bengals as a patient, Dalton and Gruden is kidney failure while Green is a sprained wrist.

[gregcook68]

Honestly, I think Green's problems are minor compared to Dalton's. And I think to a large extent those issue trace back to Dalton's limits and Gruden's scheme.

Green does seriously need to work very hard to overcome his drops, his lack of "fight" for contested balls, and find some edge to his game. He needs to bring a hint of a chip on his shoulder.

Green is second all time in yards after 3 years, behind only Moss in the Vikings pass happy system. He's be primarily targeted in the scheme, double covered, and has the equivalent of Kitna throwing to him.

If I'm in an ER triage to treat the Bengals as a patient, Dalton and Gruden is kidney failure while Green is a sprained wrist.

Some olé timer history here; Same way with Terry Bradshaw and Lynn Swan.

The first 2 SB seasons, Bradshaw spent time on the bench while Knoll tried to decide who his starter was between him, Hanratty and Gilliam!

I know, I know, just reminiscing. Old guys have that privilege.

[HoosierCat]

Honestly, I think Green's problems are minor compared to Dalton's. And I think to a large extent those issue trace back to Dalton's limits and Gruden's scheme.

Dalton's limits and Gruden's scheme made Green a top 9 WR in 2011 and Jones a top 10 this season. In this case, they aren't the problem.

[kingwilly]

Honestly, I think Green's problems are minor compared to Dalton's. And I think to a large extent those issue trace back to Dalton's limits and Gruden's scheme.

Dalton's limits and Gruden's scheme made Green a top 9 WR in 2011 and Jones a top 10 this season. In this case, they aren't the problem.

That implies its the same scheme. 2011 they did not have Jones. 2012, they did not have Gio or Eifert. It's not really the same scheme. I'd even argue this year they were statistically better but Dalton had far lower points. The stretches of bad play, especially the last two game throwing 6 INTs might be the MOST troubling.

If anything, it points more back to Dalton, since the scheme and tools all have changed. One constant is Dalton and his modest progress.

I think they baby Green, and protect him, coddle him. He's an undisputed, unchallenged #1. Jones' play opened eyes, and maybe another set of hands, not the Whalens and Sanzenbachers of the world, would push Green even harder.

[HoosierCat]

Honestly, I think Green's problems are minor compared to Dalton's. And I think to a large extent those issue trace back to Dalton's limits and Gruden's scheme.

Dalton's limits and Gruden's scheme made Green a top 9 WR in 2011 and Jones a top 10 this season. In this case, they aren't the problem.

That implies its the same scheme.

No at all. It just shows that a talented WR who applies himself can be very successful under Dalton and Gruden. If they have indeed done so under multiple schemes, that would be a point even more in their favor.

I think they baby Green, and protect him, coddle him.

I agree. And I think Green has dialed it back since that initial knee injury, and the reoccurrence in camp last August.

[cincyhokie]

Lance McAlister's topic tonight?

What happens if the Bengals let Mike Zimmer go? He suggests a possibility of Hue Jackson being his OC and Paul Guenther being his DC. How's that for a shake up?

His solution? Cut bait with Marvin. Hire Zimmer for HC. His logic is that it maintains continuity and moves on from Marvin who has hit his ceiling.

[HoosierCat]

I suggested Guenther a few days ago. Not sold on Hue but at least he'd likely be the least shock to the system. But bottom line I remain skeptical Jay is going to get an offer.

As for head coach I can't make up my mind between Rainbow Dash and Twilight Sparkle. Both of them stand as good a chance of getting the job as Marvin does of getting fired.

[cincyhokie]

I suggested Guenther a few days ago. Not sold on Hue but at least he'd likely be the least shock to the system. But bottom line I remain skeptical Jay is going to get an offer.

As for head coach I can't make up my mind between Rainbow Dash and Twilight Sparkle. Both of them stand as good a chance of getting the job as Marvin does of getting fired.

True, but you can't help but wonder the fallout on the team and the fans if that happens. If he's successful then it brings up memories of losing Bill Walsh to the 49ers. Scary.

Yeah, I'm doubtful (yet hopeful that Gruden goes) but if Zimmer does go, how many coaches are following him? How many future Bengal FA's are following him?

[COB]

How many future Bengal FA's are following him?

Hadn't even thought about that. My guess is a bunch of guys looking for their second deal will consider going wherever Zim ends up. Depression sets in.

[ArmyBengal]

Made mention a while back about if Zimmer goes that whatever team it is becomes a front runner to land Michael Johnson.

Zimmer loves MJ and has made many comments about him in interviews.

Yet another comment about Marvin being done coaching so Zimmer can take over as head coach.

Again, I can't say as I would hate that move in any way, but it's just something being pulled out of the air.

Not happening.

Why not just cut Dalton and trade all our picks for the #1 spot ??

We could draft Bridgewater and then make moves for all the best players in free agency.

After that maybe we could get all the best coaches to come here and solve the problem.

Hell even build that practice bubble in the shape of a huge penis with a sign that reads:

"2014 Cincinnati Bengals. SUCK IT"