Where was the West Coast Offense?

[Spor_tees]

Who the f**k is glamorizing anything?

I mostly see you in pissing up a rope.

Per usual.

Are you holding belay for me, because I always believe in safety when pissing up a rope.

[derekshank]

I think the 90's Cowboys would fit them best. If you compare the players between the two teams I think it would have great results.

I didn't realize who I was debating. I thought you were stupid, when you're actually delusional.

The 90's Cowboys? The team that had arguably the best O-Line in NFL history? The team with a Hall of Fame QB? The team with a RB that is top 5 in NFL history? The team that had a WR that was top 3 in NFL history? The team that had a TE that went to 5 Pro Bowls? The offense that was completely unstoppable and won 3 Super Bowls in 4 years?

That 90's Cowboys team?

Geesh. No wonder you're so disappointed.

[membengal]

Indeed, derek. Actually, that same Cowboys team that went 1-15 in Aikman's rookie year to boot. But I am guessing he isn't comparing this Bengals team to the 1-15 unit, but he probably should be if that is his comparison.

[Spor_tees]

I didn't say anything about expecting the results that the Cowboys of the 90's got, simply that I like the style of their play on offense. They were a run first team which is pretty evident by the number of carries and the amount of yards that Emmitt Smith got, but they utilized all of their weapons. Irvin got plenty of passes, Jay Novaceck did well for himself, Alvin Harper complemented Irvin, and even the FB Moose Johnston got his touches.

I didn't say I expected them to do as well as the Cowboys did...once again another leap you made on your own. When I said if you compare the players between the 2 teams, I meant if you look at their strengths.

So what more is there to argue about, you are content in the Bengals playing each weekend not to lose and hoping the other team screws up, I on the other hand, hope they make some tweaks to the offense to improve the way they played.

[membengal]

What I am suggesting is that you are being a dink about where this offense is in terms of its development.

It isn't even in its infancy. It is just barely the sperm getting to know the egg.

[Spor_tees]

Indeed, derek. Actually, that same Cowboys team that went 1-15 in Aikman's rookie year to boot. But I am guessing he isn't comparing this Bengals team to the 1-15 unit, but he probably should be if that is his comparison.

1989 wouldn't be relevant because Emmitt, Mark Stepnoski, and Darryl Johnston weren't drafted until the 1990 draft. In 1990 they went 7-9.

[derekshank]

He's bitching just like people did in '09. Winning "ugly" isn't preferable to losing "pretty"...

And that's just the thing. Because what I watched on Sunday wasn't ugly. I think they tried to throw it too often on 1st and 2nd down in middle half of the game... but other than that, it was a thing of beauty.

But some people aren't satisfied. They like fireworks. They don't like football... they like SportsCenter. And those are the people who deserved what they got in 2010.

[volcom69]

It was the first game, lets wait and see what happens going forward, it was a win in the first game. There is plenty for this team to work on, it wasnt perfect, but it was good enough to win. I think this week we will see some different things, so lets just be patient while they continue to install this offense

[kevnz]

Man, the West Coast Offense (Flip I hate that name, it's the F'N Cincinnati offense) is totally different now, to how it was back in the day. So no, it probably isn't going to look like the WCO any time soon. And I for one sure as hell hope it doesn't. We have a rookie QB, and a young team, they have to run the ball more and effectively to do anything. Is it gonna be ugly, hell yeah, and that's a beautiful thing. We don't need to hang the kids out there just yet.

[HairOnFire]

Let me suggest an alternate theory: the Bengals didn't give s**t about Haden. Not. A. s**t.

Wasn't this a topic of conversation during the offseason/lockout? That the Bengals offense no longer tried to impose its will on the defense? That it was a reactive, take-what-they're-giving affair? That instead of challenging an opponent, they tried to finesse their way down the field, audibling so much they got delay and false start penalties as they tried to get the perfect play call based on defense and personnel? That sometimes you just have to pound the rock even if they're stacking the box, etc.?

I, for one, like it.

Now you're getting it.

A few non random thoughts...

Last year I started complaining loudly about the Bengals shift in offensive focus sometime during the first half of the season opener against New England. Not only did the shift seem obvious to me...it seemed obviously stupid. And over the following weeks and months that's exactly the way things played out. That said, I sit here this morning with nothing much to complain about.

To be fair, I could complain about countless small things, but right now there's nothing bugging me in the same big picture way as last seasons horrific decision to try to win games by featuring a triumvirate of selfish star players.

Moving on, I have no problem whatsoever with the Bengals decision to target and attack Joe Haden. In fact, I think you have to attack Joe Haden simply because his acting was so poor in all three of the Lord of the Rings movies. Disagree if you must, but I felt his "Prince of the Elves" character was totally unbelievable.

More to the point, the Bengals passing offense seems to be a work in progress, as demonstrated by the sharpness of the attack when featuring backs and TE's, as well as the lack of precision and timing when featuring the wideouts. I won't say more simply because it was just one game, but Dalton and Gradkowski need to get the WR's more involved simply because the Bengals most explosive playmakers line up outside of the numbers. And there's the rub because you attack Joe haden precisely because you have AJ Green.

And for those of us who felt Jermain Gresham was being wasted by a scheme that didn't use him to attack the deep seam, well....there it was, finally. Just check the tape on the same drive where Gresham scores. It's there, two or three plays earlier.

As for the rant about passes defensed, for me those plays say less about the quality of the defender, including the previously mentioned Elf Prince, but say plenty about the arm strength of the QB's throwing the ball. Furthermore, the previously mentioned throw to the pylon is a perfect example of a pass being defendable only if the QB doesn't have an actual red rifle. And no, I'm not starting a bitch rant about weak armed QB's. Rather, I'm simply pointing out how this team no longer has a strong armed bitch as it's QB, a fact that will show up repeatedly throughout the season, and perhaps the next decade.

Last, my favorite Andy Dalton throw of the game was one he didn't throw. Rather, after watching Gresham get a poor release Dalton took off running after seeing a still struggling Gresham had failed to get open. Frankly, the decision to eat the ball on that play was the right choice, and while I'll never be able to prove it my gut tells me Carson Palmer would have attempted to complete that pass.

[skyline]

As for the rant about passes defensed, for me those plays say less about the quality of the defender, including the previously mentioned Elf Prince, but say plenty about the arm strength of the QB's throwing the ball. Furthermore, the previously mentioned throw to the pylon is a perfect example of a pass being defendable only if the QB doesn't have an actual red rifle. And no, I'm not starting a bitch rant about weak armed QB's. Rather, I'm simply pointing out how this team no longer has a strong armed bitch as it's QB, a fact that will show up repeatedly throughout the season, and perhaps the next decade.

I think you have a point, in general, but I didn't think that play had anything to do with arm strength. Dalton just waited too long, plain and simple. I don't think Palmer could have made that throw work, either.

I seem to remember Green sitting in that spot for a solid second or two before Dalton spotted him, and that's just not going to work with two defenders in the general area.

Of course, I'm going off memory, and may be wrong on this one. Either way, I'm still thrilled with what I saw from Dalton and perfectly happy with the play calling.

[derekshank]

As for the rant about passes defensed, for me those plays say less about the quality of the defender, including the previously mentioned Elf Prince, but say plenty about the arm strength of the QB's throwing the ball. Furthermore, the previously mentioned throw to the pylon is a perfect example of a pass being defendable only if the QB doesn't have an actual red rifle. And no, I'm not starting a bitch rant about weak armed QB's. Rather, I'm simply pointing out how this team no longer has a strong armed bitch as it's QB, a fact that will show up repeatedly throughout the season, and perhaps the next decade.

I think you have a point, in general, but I didn't think that play had anything to do with arm strength. Dalton just waited too long, plain and simple. I don't think Palmer could have made that throw work, either.

I seem to remember Green sitting in that spot for a solid second or two before Dalton spotted him, and that's just not going to work with two defenders in the general area.

Of course, I'm going off memory, and may be wrong on this one. Either way, I'm still thrilled with what I saw from Dalton and perfectly happy with the play calling.

I'm going off general memory too, and I don't think it was about arm stength quite as much as Hair does either... simply because it didn't appear that Dalton even attempted to fire it in there.

If I'm remembering correctly, the throw was kind of lobbed... and that was what gave Haden a chance to make a play. But again... I could be remembering wrong. Maybe the kid does have a noodle of an arm.

But more to the point... while a rifle arm is occasionally handy, I don't think it comes up as often as you'd think. Drew Bledsoe was drafted #1 overall, in part because of the arm strength the he showed off at the combine. But he once said that he could count on one hand the number of times in his career that he threw the ball that hard.

[HairOnFire]

And no, I'm not starting a bitch rant about weak armed QB's.

Perhaps some of you missed the above line when reading my post.

I'm not bitching.

And you can't make me.

That said, as each of us evaluates what we're seeing from Andy Dalton the one thing that concerns me most right now isn't that Andy Dalton might have a noodle arm (your words), but rather....there are simply some throws he can't make, and might never be able to make. And further, that there are other throws that he most certainly can make, but perhaps not as often as some cleft-chinned golden-armed hero figure from the not so distant past.

[HairOnFire]

I'm going off general memory too, and I don't think it was about arm stength quite as much as Hair does either... simply because it didn't appear that Dalton even attempted to fire it in there.

Fair enough. I withdraw my previous remark. Instead, I now point to a play where Dalton did try to fire it in there. More specifically, the toss to the back of the endzone that prompted the announcers to gush about throwing the ball into a too small window.

I say, that wasn't a window.

At best, that was a keyhole.

And yeah, because it was a keyhole, and because Andy Dalton doesn't actually have a red rifle, well....it's probably not a throw Andy Dalton should be attempting. In fact, having that pass knocked down by a defender might qualify as the best case scenario.

[derekshank]

I'm going off general memory too, and I don't think it was about arm stength quite as much as Hair does either... simply because it didn't appear that Dalton even attempted to fire it in there.

Fair enough. I withdraw my previous remark. Instead, I now point to a play where Dalton did try to fire it in there. More specifically, the toss to the back of the endzone that prompted the announcers to gush about throwing the ball into a too small window.

I say, that wasn't a window.

At best, that was a keyhole.

And yeah, because it was a keyhole, and because Andy Dalton doesn't actually have a red rifle, well....it's probably not a throw Andy Dalton should be attempting. In fact, having that pass knocked down by a defender might qualify as the best case scenario.

I know which play you are referring to... and I agree. Although, on that particular throw, I'm not sure any amount of arm strength would have gotten the job done. The area to fit the ball in was simply too small.

If I want to nit-pick about Dalton's performance... that is the play I point to. It was an ill-advised throw. But as far as I can remember, that was the biggest mistake he made all day, and no significant harm done. So you have to call that a success (except for the injury... *sigh*).

[skyline]

And, if we're going to nitpick these throws, shouldn't we bring up the TD pass to Gresham in his defense?

It may not have been a laser, but it seemed adequate to me. And more importantly, it was perfectly placed.

I tend to think that decision-makling will be much more important to his long term success than arm strength, and so far he receives pretty high marks from me in that area.

[derekshank]

And, if we're going to nitpick these throws, shouldn't we bring up the TD pass to Gresham in his defense?

It may not have been a laser, but it seemed adequate to me. And more importantly, it was perfectly placed.

I tend to think that decision-makling will be much more important to his long term success than arm strength, and so far he receives pretty high marks from me in that area.

This.

I wish I could agree more emphatically.

THIS!

There... that does it.

[HairOnFire]

And, if we're going to nitpick these throws, shouldn't we bring up the TD pass to Gresham in his defense?

It may not have been a laser, but it seemed adequate to me. And more importantly, it was perfectly placed.

I tend to think that decision-makling will be much more important to his long term success than arm strength, and so far he receives pretty high marks from me in that area.

This.

I wish I could agree more emphatically.

THIS!

There... that does it.

Really?

An enlarged font, underlined, and in bold?

And where's the tension easing emoticon so common in proper society?

Frankly, I think I deserve better than this, but.....(voice trails off)

[sniff]

[Spor_tees]

And, if we're going to nitpick these throws, shouldn't we bring up the TD pass to Gresham in his defense?

It may not have been a laser, but it seemed adequate to me. And more importantly, it was perfectly placed.

I tend to think that decision-makling will be much more important to his long term success than arm strength, and so far he receives pretty high marks from me in that area.

I didn't bring it up before, simply because a lot of it is the quickness of the NFL compared to college, and having enough practice with his new receivers, but he did throw behind receivers a couple times. One of those was behind Shipley, and another was the pass that was bobbled by a Browns defender and should have been intercepted. Though like hair said, that may be a throw that if he has a rifle arm he completes it. Out patterns, especially deep outs are throws that Dalton is going to have the most trouble with.

[Sea Ray]

And, if we're going to nitpick these throws, shouldn't we bring up the TD pass to Gresham in his defense?

It may not have been a laser, but it seemed adequate to me. And more importantly, it was perfectly placed.

I tend to think that decision-makling will be much more important to his long term success than arm strength, and so far he receives pretty high marks from me in that area.

I didn't bring it up before, simply because a lot of it is the quickness of the NFL compared to college, and having enough practice with his new receivers, but he did throw behind receivers a couple times. One of those was behind Shipley, and another was the pass that was bobbled by a Browns defender and should have been intercepted. Though like hair said, that may be a throw that if he has a rifle arm he completes it. Out patterns, especially deep outs are throws that Dalton is going to have the most trouble with.

As I recall the passes you're mentioning were thrown by Bruce, not AD

[Spor_tees]

And, if we're going to nitpick these throws, shouldn't we bring up the TD pass to Gresham in his defense?

It may not have been a laser, but it seemed adequate to me. And more importantly, it was perfectly placed.

I tend to think that decision-makling will be much more important to his long term success than arm strength, and so far he receives pretty high marks from me in that area.

I didn't bring it up before, simply because a lot of it is the quickness of the NFL compared to college, and having enough practice with his new receivers, but he did throw behind receivers a couple times. One of those was behind Shipley, and another was the pass that was bobbled by a Browns defender and should have been intercepted. Though like hair said, that may be a throw that if he has a rifle arm he completes it. Out patterns, especially deep outs are throws that Dalton is going to have the most trouble with.

As I recall the passes you're mentioning were thrown by Bruce, not AD

I will admit I am wrong about the one that was almost intercepted. That was Gradkowski. I still remember Dalton threw a ball behind a couple guys. The one Gresham dropped was behind him some and high I believe. Oddly it did seem like his slant routes had some zip to it, but he still lacks the gun of an arm. I think if they stick to the West Coast game plan he can be pretty successful in the long term.

[derekshank]

I will admit I am wrong about the one that was almost intercepted. That was Gradkowski. I still remember Dalton threw a ball behind a couple guys. The one Gresham dropped was behind him some and high I believe.

I just rewatched the game... and was even more impressed with Dalton than I was initially. The only throw he had that wasn't perfectly placed was the throw to Green when he got hurt.

The throw that Gresham dropped hit him in the hands between the numbers. The throw that Simpson dropped was contested... but perfectly placed, out of the reach of the defender and into Simpson's hands.

He threw several passes that had more than enough zip on them, and placed the ball perfectly where only his receiver could catch it (the 20 yard completion to Simpson in the 1st quarter is a perfect illustration).

The only negatives that anyone could try to point out were the two incomplete passes on the first drive in the endzone. Both were accurate throws... but were well covered. He probably shouldn't have thrown those two passes, but other than that he was extremely impressive.

[volcom69]

I will admit I am wrong about the one that was almost intercepted. That was Gradkowski. I still remember Dalton threw a ball behind a couple guys. The one Gresham dropped was behind him some and high I believe.

I just rewatched the game... and was even more impressed with Dalton than I was initially. The only throw he had that wasn't perfectly placed was the throw to Green when he got hurt.

The throw that Gresham dropped hit him in the hands between the numbers. The throw that Simpson dropped was contested... but perfectly placed, out of the reach of the defender and into Simpson's hands.

He threw several passes that had more than enough zip on them, and placed the ball perfectly where only his receiver could catch it (the 20 yard completion to Simpson in the 1st quarter is a perfect illustration).

The only negatives that anyone could try to point out were the two incomplete passes on the first drive in the endzone. Both were accurate throws... but were well covered. He probably shouldn't have thrown those two passes, but other than that he was extremely impressive.

I loved what i saw from Dalton while he was in there, just sucks he couldnt finish. This week we need to see more of that, and lets see him play a full game, and hope continues to get better. This week i think will be tough, at least at a tough place to play.

[TJJackson]

Frankly, I think I deserve better than this, but.....(voice trails off)

[sniff]

When Hair starts to tear up, you know it's time for a group hug

Bring it in, all of you

Yes, you too

H-U-G

There now, that wasn't so bad, was it?

Oh wait, come to think of it, the other possibility is that Hair's latest bag may have been mostly seeds, stems, and oregano

Sorry fellas.

[HairOnFire]

I will admit I am wrong about the one that was almost intercepted. That was Gradkowski. I still remember Dalton threw a ball behind a couple guys. The one Gresham dropped was behind him some and high I believe.

I just rewatched the game... and was even more impressed with Dalton than I was initially. The only throw he had that wasn't perfectly placed was the throw to Green when he got hurt.

The throw that Gresham dropped hit him in the hands between the numbers.

FWIW I spent part of my weekend rewatching the Cleveland game. More specifically, I watched Jermain Gresham on every offensive snap, something I had never bothered doing before, but something I wanted to do because I suddenly feel the need to say something that nobody else is seeing, and few want to hear. But after the Denver game just witnessed, well...hear it you will.

IMHO Gresham is busting.

Worse, if things don't improve quickly it's going to be a very hard bust.