Jay Hayes

[kingwilly]

New Hobbs article on .com: http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Dunlap-looking-at-opener/4caffd9a-cfda-400e-a80f-3e6498363a35

Why would Hayes want Dunlap at 305? and have him play some tackle?

Jay Hayes cannot be trusted with Dunlap. Dunlap is an edge rusher, not an elephant DE/DT.

They did this to Geathers, bulking him up, up, up, and now he's slow and just another guy. Do this with Dunlap and I will be pissed off. Idiot.

[Kazkal]

Wow...Whats wrong with them do they not want passrushers? NO MORE TURNING OUR PASHRUSHERS IN To ELEPHANTS PLZ

[derekshank]

Dunlao was drafted to be an interior pass rusher. That's been Zimmer's plan from day 1.

Remember the press conference from the draft?

Zimmer: We think he might be a 290- to 300-pounder someday. If we can use him in pass-rush situations and let him adapt to where we can find the right position for him a year from now, then we’ve really got something.”

Hayes: Like Mike (Zimmer) is saying, when you go back and look at this man at 280 pounds right now, you relate him to Calais Campbell, who plays at Arizona and came out as a 295-pound guy. He was 6-foot-7. This kid (Dunlap) is not as heavy as him, but he could eventually be a 305-pound guy that has a lot of versatility to be a left end on first and second down and a defensive tackle on third down. If he keeps growing, we could have ourselves a really exceptional three-technique player with great athletic ability. He has a lot of things ahead of him, and it’s exciting to have guys like this come in.”

Zimmer: We’ll probably start him at end right now — probably left end — and then go from there. What’s (Gerald) McCoy from Oklahoma — 6-5, 285? We think this guy, hopefully, will look like that someday.”

The intention with him, from the moment he was drafted, was to use him as a DE on 1st and 2nd down, then have him play DT on 3rd down. That's what Odom was doing before he got hurt, and it was working rather well. Dunlap has a lot of natural size and speed... and adding 10-15 lbs of muscle won't detract from what he does well.

In fact... New Era Scouting said this about him as a pass rusher:

Can get the quarterback from every angle, best used as an interior rusher on passing downs. Uses a nice spin move to the inside gap while maintaining balance and power. When his leverage is right, Dunlap can use a variety of moves to get past a blocker and in to the passer’s face very quickly. Strong bull rusher that can collapse a pocket.

Sounds to me like that is exactly what the Bengals are trying to do... so calm down. Geathers doesn't have a fraction of the talent Dunlap does.

[kingwilly]

He was drafted to be an interior pass rusher. That's been Zimmer's plan from day 1.

Remember the press conference from the draft?

Question: With what you have now, where does Dunlap fit into your schemes?

Zimmer: “We need to get a better pass rush. That’s one of the areas where we hopefully can get him worked into — in pass-rush situations. One of the things that sold us on him was that he is a guy that has so much position versatility. We think he might be a 290- to 300-pounder someday. If we can use him in pass-rush situations and let him adapt to where we can find the right position for him a year from now, then we’ve really got something.”

Question: Is he stout against the run?

Hayes: “He’s adequate... Like Mike (Zimmer) is saying, when you go back and look at this man at 280 pounds right now, you relate him to Calais Campbell, who plays at Arizona and came out as a 295-pound guy. He was 6-foot-7. This kid (Dunlap) is not as heavy as him, but he could eventually be a 305-pound guy that has a lot of versatility to be a left end on first and second down and a defensive tackle on third down. If he keeps growing, we could have ourselves a really exceptional three-technique player with great athletic ability. He has a lot of things ahead of him, and it’s exciting to have guys like this come in.”

Question: Will you start him out at defensive end?

Zimmer: “Yeah, we’ll probably start him at end right now — probably left end — and then go from there. What’s (Gerald) McCoy from Oklahoma — 6-5, 285? We think this guy, hopefully, will look like that someday.”

The intention with him, from the moment he was drafted, was to use him as a DE on 1st and 2nd down, then have him play DT on 3rd down. That's what Odom was doing before he got hurt, and it was working rather well. Dunlap has a lot of natural size and speed... and adding 10-15 lbs of muscle won't detract from what he does well.

In fact... New Era Scouting said this about him as a pass rusher:

Can get the quarterback from every angle, best used as an interior rusher on passing downs. Uses a nice spin move to the inside gap while maintaining balance and power. When his leverage is right, Dunlap can use a variety of moves to get past a blocker and in to the passer’s face very quickly. Strong bull rusher that can collapse a pocket.

Sounds to me like that is exactly what the Bengals are trying to do... so calm down. Geathers doesn't have a fraction of the talent Dunlap does.

I had totally missed that. I really disagree with that approach. I do not think that will benefit Dunlap or the O-line. Again, they are looking for the guy to do something, and play a position, that he had not before. What gives? Dunlap beats the tackle. Why bulk him up to go inside? Seems like a huge waste and a huge risk to me.

[derekshank]

I had totally missed that. I really disagree with that approach. I do not think that will benefit Dunlap or the O-line. Again, they are looking for the guy to do something, and play a position, that he had not before. What gives? Dunlap beats the tackle. Why bulk him up to go inside? Seems like a huge waste and a huge risk to me.

It's simply inaccurate to suggest he hasn't done it before.

Credit to New Era Scouting

Versatility: Has seen plenty of time inside and outside, left and right. Was moved all over the place at Florida, creates mismatches and absorbed double teams across the line. His best performances have come from the inside as a pass rushing defensive tackle.

And Dunlap has a really big frame, with a decent amount of growing yet to do. Don't sweat the "bulking up" thing. It won't negatively effect the things he does well, and will only make him stronger, and harder to block.

[Spor_tees]

I disagree with this approach as well. It didn't work with David Pollack, it didn't work with Robert Gathers, so why would it work now? Quit screwing up guys careers by making them into projects, and instead just let them play and do well with how they are.

Dunlap reminds me of a raw Jevon Kearse when he first came in the league. Let him keep the frame that he has along with the pass rush speed he has without the extra weight. Then just sit back and watch him rack up sacks all season long!

[BengalszoneBilly]

I disagree with this approach as well. It didn't work with David Pollack, it didn't work with Robert Gathers, so why would it work now? Quit screwing up guys careers by making them into projects, and instead just let them play and do well with how they are.

Amen! Let the players play at their natural positions.

[Trevor]

He got a few sacks last year on the inside,.. I'd rather him be a Julius peppers like DE... But i mean whatevers best for the team

[HoosierCat]

While we're on the subject of the d-line Sims got back to practice today.

[derekshank]

They aren't asking him do something he didn't do in college. They are asking him to do exactly what he did in college.

He just needs to fill out a little to be as effective as possible in that role.

[Spor_tees]

They aren't asking him do something he didn't do in college. They are asking him to do exactly what he did in college.

He just needs to fill out a little to be as effective as possible in that role.

A lot of guys are able to do more in college when they are as talented and physically gifted as Carlos Dunlap. Remember that many pundits believed Dunlap could have been a mid to early first rounder if he hadn't been labeled as a guy that doesn't play hard every play. Now he is in the NFL and his speed on the edge is helping him get sacks, so why put 20+ pounds on him so he can play tackle in the nickle package? Aren't there enough 300 lb guys on the team that can do that? If you ask me, it's robbing Peter to pay Paul, except you don't know what the final outcome will be.

All I know is this, in the shape he was last season, he got 9 sacks, and it worked. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[volcom69]

While we're on the subject of the d-line Sims got back to practice today.

If he can continue to grow like the end of last season, this will be huge to get him back! Another guy to stop the run, and was a pretty good force in the DT rotation.

[Kazkal]

Dunlaps Frame I guess it isn't as bad as if they Wanted MJ to bulk up to 290-300

[Spor_tees]

Dunlaps Frame I guess it isn't as bad as if they Wanted MJ to bulk up to 290-300

When I look at Dunlap I see a Jevon Kearse mold where a guy can power rush or speed rush off the edge while still being able to support the run.

MJ is more of a Jason Taylor type where he is mainly a speed rusher but can also drop into coverage when need be.

Now if the Bengals can get even half the careers of Kearse and Taylor out of these guys, they will be doing something.

Just imagine the year Dunlap could have had last year if it wasn't for him being in Marvin's doghouse for playing poorly in practice! I'll never get why Marvin will let some guys slide on so much but then be so strict on others to the point it hurts the team.

[derekshank]

All I know is this, in the shape he was last season, he got 9 sacks, and it worked. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Dunlap was a situational DE last year. They want him to be an every down player. He's clearly got the talent. They merely want to see him grow into his ample frame so they can get the most out of his talents.

Again... even in college, he was not at his best on the edge, but when he kicked it inside.

Just imagine the year Dunlap could have had last year if it wasn't for him being in Marvin's doghouse for playing poorly in practice! I'll never get why Marvin will let some guys slide on so much but then be so strict on others to the point it hurts the team.

First of all, there is no indication that he was in Marvin's doghouse. Marvin and Zimmer both simply stated that he wasn't ready to be an every down player. He played quite well in passing situations, but that doesn't mean he was ready to be an every down DE.

Every team has these kinds of things. I work with a Steelers fan who complained for years about James Harrison not getting enough playing time. Every time he was on the field, he was a monster... but the coaches said he wasn't ready. Not being privy to things behind the scenes, we are left to assume that players like this have undeveloped aspects of their game, but the coaches put them in situations that won't expose those weaknesses.

[Spor_tees]

All I know is this, in the shape he was last season, he got 9 sacks, and it worked. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Dunlap was a situational DE last year. They want him to be an every down player. He's clearly got the talent. They merely want to see him grow into his ample frame so they can get the most out of his talents.

Again... even in college, he was not at his best on the edge, but when he kicked it inside.

Just imagine the year Dunlap could have had last year if it wasn't for him being in Marvin's doghouse for playing poorly in practice! I'll never get why Marvin will let some guys slide on so much but then be so strict on others to the point it hurts the team.

First of all, there is no indication that he was in Marvin's doghouse. Marvin and Zimmer both simply stated that he wasn't ready to be an every down player. He played quite well in passing situations, but that doesn't mean he was ready to be an every down DE.

Every team has these kinds of things. I work with a Steelers fan who complained for years about James Harrison not getting enough playing time. Every time he was on the field, he was a monster... but the coaches said he wasn't ready. Not being privy to things behind the scenes, we are left to assume that players like this have undeveloped aspects of their game, but the coaches put them in situations that won't expose those weaknesses.

We do know that Dunlap was in Marvin's doghouse because last year Marvin was quoted as saying so. Marvin said that Dunlap was not showing enough effort in practice and until he started to see more from him, he would continue to sit the bench on game days.

Here is a quote from a Kirkendall article on Cincyjungle.com:

Said Lewis of Dunlap: “Hopefully he’ll continue to grow a little bit and get better and give us some quality snaps. He has all the ability we expect. Right now he’s had more practice than play. He’s got to learn how to prepare and practice in the National Football League to play on Sundays.”

Here is another quote from CBSSports.com:

Aug. 01, 2011 12:26 p.m. - by Paul Dehner Jr. - Lewis likes DE Dunlap's improved maturity

Marvin Lewis on DE Carlos Dunlap 's progress: "It's no secret I wasn't always pleased with Carlos' practice effort. But I think we have turned a real corner here maturity-wise. He has become a real leader out there in how to practice and do things right." Bengals RapidReports

So basically Lewis is saying that he knows Dunlap can make a contribution on Sundays, BUT he doesn't like the lack of effort in practice so he is going to punish him, and pretty much the rest of the team by not giving him much playing time on gamedays.

Also, I don't know why you continue to say what he did in college. In college a lot of the time he faced guys in the interior of the line that reached 300lbs or less. Almost all of the guys in the NFL are much larger than that. Just because a guy does something in college doesn't mean it translates to the pros. Being a Bengals fan I would think you would know that by now, see David Klinger, Kijana Carter, Dan Wilkenson, ect. In college some guys can do well just because of raw talent and size, but to be a good NFL player it takes a lot more than that.

[derekshank]

We do know that Dunlap was in Marvin's doghouse because last year Marvin was quoted as saying so. Marvin said that Dunlap was not showing enough effort in practice and until he started to see more from him, he would continue to sit the bench on game days.

None of the quotes prove doghouse. They prove what I was talking about. That he wasn't progressing in the areas needed to be an every down player... and that's why he played only situationally. They want more from him... and Dunlap spent his offseason trying to do that. It seems Dunlap got motivated. That's a good thing.

I don't know why you continue to say what he did in college. In college a lot of the time he faced guys in the interior of the line that reached 300lbs or less.

I bring it up, because the scouts who talked about how he ought to be utilized in the NFL brought it up. And it's what the Bengals coaches have talked about from the moment they drafted him. Most scouts thought he would be a 3-4 DE, because his interior rushing abilities are superior to his edge rushing abilities.

He played in the SEC. Good competition. Let's not pretend all his production came against Mountain West. And prior to the '10 draft, Zimmer specifically said that he was happy with the pass rush on the edge from his current DE's, but there was no push from the DT's... allowing the QB to step up in the pocket.

Before Odom got hurt, he had added a bunch of weight (apparently with PEDs) and was a good DE... but most of his production came as a DT on passing downs. But the Bengals didn't have anyone to fill that role once he went down. So he went out and drafted Dunlap and Atkins for that specific purpose.

Everyone seems to be in love with Zimmer, but choose not to trust him with the players he drafts. It makes no sense.

[Spor_tees]

None of the quotes prove doghouse. They prove what I was talking about. That he wasn't progressing in the areas needed to be an every down player... and that's why he played only situationally. They want more from him... and Dunlap spent his offseason trying to do that. It seems Dunlap got motivated. That's a good thing.

I don't know what your definition of being in the doghouse is, but getting your playing time cut because a coach doesn't care for your actions, sure sounds like being in the doghouse to me.

I bring it up, because the scouts who talked about how he ought to be utilized in the NFL brought it up. And it's what the Bengals coaches have talked about from the moment they drafted him. Most scouts thought he would be a 3-4 DE, because his interior rushing abilities are superior to his edge rushing abilities.

To me it doesn't really matter what the coaches talked about when they drafted him, because as a fan I have already seen this movie and it doesn't end well. In fact it hasn't ended well for a lot of players in the past that get drafted and all of a sudden the team that drafts them wants to reshape their bodies and put them in a new position. I can really only think of a handful that it has worked for, the most well known being Urlacher that went from safety to LB. The Bengals need to stick with drafting players that fit the roles they need instead of drafting players they can mold into what they need.

He played in the SEC. Good competition. Let's not pretend all his production came against Mountain West.

Sure David Klinger played in a crap conference, but Kijana and Big Daddy played in the Big 10. Akili played in the Pac 10 and the list goes on and on...

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I pray he doesn't become another virtual non-factor like Geathers (or even Justin Smith who never moved) has the last few years, lining him up at the same spot every down and given the same assignment/responsibilities. Dunlap needs to be moved around and used wisely/accordingly, and we can only hope the coaches do that into the future, regardless of his weight (which I'm pretty sure they're talking about adding 10 pounds of muscle/strength to his frame, not "dead weight" just to have it).

Having offenses worry about where he (and hopefully MJ) are coming from on passing downs will obviously only help everyone else - something they haven't had here in a long time.

Anxious to see him back on the field.

[derekshank]

I don't know what your definition of being in the doghouse is, but getting your playing time cut because a coach doesn't care for your actions, sure sounds like being in the doghouse to me.

Marvin never said he wasn't playing because he didn't care for his actions. Marvin said he wasn't playing because he wasn't progressing. If he's not practicing well, why should he go in a game?

Sure David Klinger played in a crap conference, but Kijana and Big Daddy played in the Big 10. Akili played in the Pac 10 and the list goes on and on...

We're not talking about a bust situation here. We're talking about a player being used in a way that maximizes his potential.

Dunlap needs to be moved around and used wisely/accordingly, and we can only hope the coaches do that into the future, regardless of his weight (which I'm pretty sure they're talking about adding 10 pounds of muscle/strength to his frame, not "dead weight" just to have it).

Having offenses worry about where he (and hopefully MJ) are coming from on passing downs will obviously only help everyone else - something they haven't had here in a long time.

This.

[Spor_tees]

I pray he doesn't become another virtual non-factor like Geathers (or even Justin Smith who never moved) has the last few years, lining him up at the same spot every down and given the same assignment/responsibilities. Dunlap needs to be moved around and used wisely/accordingly, and we can only hope the coaches do that into the future, regardless of his weight (which I'm pretty sure they're talking about adding 10 pounds of muscle/strength to his frame, not "dead weight" just to have it).

Having offenses worry about where he (and hopefully MJ) are coming from on passing downs will obviously only help everyone else - something they haven't had here in a long time.

Anxious to see him back on the field.

Justin Smith left the Bengals and became a Pro-Bowler with San Fran...so I don't get your point? He didn't all of a sudden become a better player because he was moved around either. Another thing is, they are talking about adding 20 lbs, which adding 20 lbs of muscle sure takes time, but still slows down your speed and reaction time, not to mention your flexibility. Loss of flexibility can lead to more injuries especially in your joints and on your ligaments.

Having offenses worry about where he (and hopefully MJ) are coming from on passing downs will obviously only help everyone else - something they haven't had here in a long time.

You can't compare MJ and Dunlap on how they should be used on the field. MJ is 20 lbs lighter than Dunlap and can easily be dropped back into coverage or used as a rusher from the edge. They are two totally diferent types of players.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I pray he doesn't become another virtual non-factor like Geathers (or even Justin Smith who never moved) has the last few years, lining him up at the same spot every down and given the same assignment/responsibilities. Dunlap needs to be moved around and used wisely/accordingly, and we can only hope the coaches do that into the future, regardless of his weight (which I'm pretty sure they're talking about adding 10 pounds of muscle/strength to his frame, not "dead weight" just to have it).

Having offenses worry about where he (and hopefully MJ) are coming from on passing downs will obviously only help everyone else - something they haven't had here in a long time.

Anxious to see him back on the field.

Justin Smith left the Bengals and became a Pro-Bowler with San Fran...so I don't get your point? He didn't all of a sudden become a better player because he was moved around either. Another thing is, they are talking about adding 20 lbs, which adding 20 lbs of muscle sure takes time, but still slows down your speed and reaction time, not to mention your flexibility. Loss of flexibility can lead to more injuries especially in your joints and on your ligaments.

Having offenses worry about where he (and hopefully MJ) are coming from on passing downs will obviously only help everyone else - something they haven't had here in a long time.

You can't compare MJ and Dunlap on how they should be used on the field. MJ is 20 lbs lighter than Dunlap and can easily be dropped back into coverage or used as a rusher from the edge. They are two totally diferent types of players.

Justin Smith left the Bengals and became a Pro-Bowler with San Fran

That pretty much IS my point. Of course that was pre-Zimmer so I am not as worried about it.

If you look at Dunlap, he actually lacks some upper body bulk/strength, and could actually improve quite a bit when he adds some strength to his upper body in particular - thus his "room to grow" scouting report. The reason he lacks that strength is due to his poor work habits in college, thus his lowered draft stock. The Bengals' feel they can stay on him and get him there hopefully. He obviously has all the natural ability in the world, but as you can see already with his knee issues, if you aren't in top shape and maxing out your body's capabilities, your body will break down fast in the NFL, especially at that position.

[derekshank]

I would also like to add to the argument that Geathers "bulking up" is not the reason for his decline. He had a great season as a situational pass rusher, but then was paid to be a starter. It was not the weight he added that was the problem (he only put on 5-10 pounds).

Geathers went from being a pass-rush specialist to and every-down DE. He wasn't cut out to be a complete DE who can contribute as an every down player. He simply lacks the skill-set.

Dunlap is different. First of all, he's 6'6" (3" taller than Geathers), and one look at him tells you that he could add 15 pounds to his upper body and still look slim (Calais Campbell is 310 pounds, and has no gut at all). Adding some upper body muscle will only benefit his game.

Quit worrying about Geathers. It's a completely different situation.

[blueridge]

Relax. Dunlap isn't 305 and if he gets 15 sacks this season, no one will turn him into a DT. But, again, 305 is not a big stretch for a guy Dunlap's side and. at 6'6", would hardly turn him into an elephant. With added strength and his quickness, I could see Dunlap as a true swing guy who could make a QB's life hell from either the edge or interior.

[derekshank]

305 is not a big stretch for a guy Dunlap's side and. at 6'6", would hardly turn him into an elephant.

Exactly. When people hear 300 pounds, they envision Tony Siragusa.

But look at Ndamukong Suh. 307 pounds and 2 inches shorter than Dunlap. Do you see any fat on that guy?

Look at Mario Williams. 295 pounds, and was one of the best edge rushers in the NFL. And he's playing OLB this season!

When a guy is a freak, normal rules don't apply.

And if you're worried that the term "freak" doesn't apply here... look at Dunlap's combine measurements.

Height: 6'6"

Weight: 290

40 Yard Dash : 4.71 seconds

Bench Press : 21.0 reps

Vertical Jump : 31.5 inches

Broad Jump : 111.0 inches

3-Cone Drill: 7.21 seconds

20 Yard Shuttle : 4.61 seconds

290 lbs and a 7.21 3-cone drill? Freakish.

Yeah... I'm all for him adding some upper body strength to go with those abilities.