Taylor Mays Is A Bengal

[ArmyBengal]

I really don't get the pessimism with the Mays trade from people.

Well, let's face it. He's a guy who washed out after just one year in SF. In fact, they so much didn't want him they told the whole world in an e-mail saying he was available. And the only other team interested in him was looking to switch him to LB. So I don't think it's hard to understand why people are skeptical. Based on what Zim's done in the past, I have hopes they can turn him around, but it won't surprise me if they don't, either.

So in saying that, what's the problem with the move assuming they gave up nothing more than a 4th ??

Like I said, leave San Fran out of the equation and look at our current roster of safeties.

Where's the problem ??

Honestly, Mays not turn out to be anything other than a mild upgrade to what we have, but San Fran was stupid to give up on him completely after only one season. To me that simply screams coaching and scheme change. Look at the abortion that is the Denver Broncos QB situation. They had people yesterday wondering if Tebow was going to get cut outright. It's not the place for a Tebow discussion, but you get my point. Coaches and schemes change and the current players don't always match up.

People just like to call the Bengals stupid. Hell, so do I at times, but this isn't one of them. Didn't the 49er's draft Mays in the 2nd and then give up after a season ?? No stupidity there huh ?? Just the Bengals ?? What the f*ck ever...

[HoosierCat]

So in saying that, what's the problem with the move assuming they gave up nothing more than a 4th ??

I don't think the issue is specific to the Mays trade, but rather to the waiver wire/trading block/scrap heap approach that Hobson illustrated. Yes, they've succeeded in reclaiming a player here and there, but it hasn't helped to build a consistent winner, and I can completely understand those who are tired of the annual story about the Bengals' newest dumpster-diving find.

[TJJackson]

As long as the pick they gave up was their own 7 next year, and no higher, I am fine with this.

Young player, has potential, at a position of need, DC's system calls for a hitting safety, might benefit from a change of scenery, and SF has eaten the signing bonus already.

Might be some value in the USC connection between Mauluga and Mays as well

[HairOnFire]

I don't think the issue is specific to the Mays trade, but rather to the waiver wire/trading block/scrap heap approach that Hobson illustrated. Yes, they've succeeded in reclaiming a player here and there, but it hasn't helped to build a consistent winner, and I can completely understand those who are tired of the annual story about the Bengals' newest dumpster-diving find.

True, but if you can learn to accept how this team shops for safeties...this is as good as it's been in quite awhile. Crocker stepped right in and upgraded the deep secondary, Reggie Nelson is suddenly playing more like a 1st round pick than a busted castoff, and Mays gives them a faster more physical version of the oversized safety type this team always seems to have on it's roster.

Best, there's no reason to debate whether Mays fits in Cincinnati's defensive scheme. This team actually likes a Roy Williams type of safety. It's what they shop for in free agency and the draft, and it shouldn't suprise anyone if they also look through the bargain bin for young players who might fit better here than with the team that drafted them. As for Mays specifically, even if he pans out I can't envision any scenario where he's asked to play anywhere close to the rumored 80% of defensive snaps needed to trigger higher draft compensation.

Last, I have to wonder aloud if the trade for Mays or Nelson actually qualify as dumpster-diving? The Mays trade is rumored to cost a 4th round pick, which is as much or more than some teams have paid for aging but proven veterans. So while the cost isn't steep....it's hardly dumpster-diving.

[HairOnFire]

Sorry, I double posted.

But that said, why waste an opportunity for joking?

A man, a horse, and a duck walk into a bar.

Which is pretty remarkable when you realize how big a bar is, and how hard it is to not see it sitting there.

Crazier still, why didn't the duck manage to avoid the bar after seeing the man and horse walk into it?

The mind boggles.

Anyways, I double posted.

My bad.

[ArmyBengal]

So in saying that, what's the problem with the move assuming they gave up nothing more than a 4th ??

I don't think the issue is specific to the Mays trade, but rather to the waiver wire/trading block/scrap heap approach that Hobson illustrated. Yes, they've succeeded in reclaiming a player here and there, but it hasn't helped to build a consistent winner, and I can completely understand those who are tired of the annual story about the Bengals' newest dumpster-diving find.

I get that line of thought, only don't think it applies in this situation. This is a second year player, drafted in the 2nd round. A player our own team attempted to trade up for in the draft. He was WANTED by this team to play in this defensive scheme.

[HoosierCat]

True, but if you can learn to accept how this team shops for safeties...this is as good as it's been in quite awhile.

At least on paper, I agree, and I hope things pan out on the field. Personally, I like bringing in Mays, for all the reasons you cited. All I'm saying is that I understand why people might be underwhelmed by the move, too.

Army, I get that Mays is a guy they wanted. That's great, and I hope their judgment proves correct. But they might have been wrong, too. All we can do is wait and see.

[derekshank]

I distinctly remember several people demanding the Bengals trade up ahead of the 49ers for Mays in the 2nd round draft discussion in 2010.

I also vaguely remember a rumor that the Bengals actually did attempt to trade up to get Mays, but failed.

Had Cincy been successful, they would have likely had to trade their 2nd rounder (54th) and their 4th rounder (120th) to move ahead of San Francisco.

So, the Bengals nearly gave up the picks that brought in Carlos Dunlap and Geno Atkins for this guy, and now must only part with a conditional draft pick, rumored to be a 5th. Seems like a steal, considering.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I don't think the issue is specific to the Mays trade, but rather to the waiver wire/trading block/scrap heap approach that Hobson illustrated. Yes, they've succeeded in reclaiming a player here and there, but it hasn't helped to build a consistent winner, and I can completely understand those who are tired of the annual story about the Bengals' newest dumpster-diving find.

Agreed, but this is one that even I'll defend Mike Brown on. It's not like getting San Fran sloppies was plan A for the safety position, it's just a target of opportunity (never mind that there was no plan A, that's another story). Also, as I've said before, sometimes a guy is a casualty of a coach who feels the need to clean out the cupboard. That looks to be the case here.

Sometimes when getting a good deal, it's easy to talk yourself out of it based on the fact you weren't outbid. Like when you have a bid accepted on a house, your first thought is probably 'they accepted...I overpaid'. Same thing here given that other teams didn't have interest. But in the end, getting such a well-regarded guy 1 year removed from college success...that's worth a 4th round gamble, right?

[kingwilly]

I don't think the issue is specific to the Mays trade, but rather to the waiver wire/trading block/scrap heap approach that Hobson illustrated. Yes, they've succeeded in reclaiming a player here and there, but it hasn't helped to build a consistent winner, and I can completely understand those who are tired of the annual story about the Bengals' newest dumpster-diving find.

Agreed, but this is one that even I'll defend Mike Brown on. It's not like getting San Fran sloppies was plan A for the safety position, it's just a target of opportunity (never mind that there was no plan A, that's another story). Also, as I've said before, sometimes a guy is a casualty of a coach who feels the need to clean out the cupboard. That looks to be the case here.

Sometimes when getting a good deal, it's easy to talk yourself out of it based on the fact you weren't outbid. Like when you have a bid accepted on a house, your first thought is probably 'they accepted...I overpaid'. Same thing here given that other teams didn't have interest. But in the end, getting such a well-regarded guy 1 year removed from college success...that's worth a 4th round gamble, right?

The safety position is one where this team has generally been very active in free agency. Daryl Williams, JoJuan Armour, Rogers Beckett, Kim Herring, Anthony Mitchell, O-maybetheworstfootballplayerever-halete, Dexter Jackson, Mike Doss, Hebert, Roy Williams, Crocker, Reggie Nelson, Wilson.... that's a long list. Most of those listed have been dreadful to average.. Only Daryl Williams, Crocker (when he got here) and Nelson (and only recently) seem to be anything more than average.

For whatever reason, the Bengals have not taken safety very high, generally due to the gaping roster holes elsewhere or the chance to take a very desire player early (r1-3). I think that SF had a large stockpile and felt this was the time to get the best value for Mays, who likely would have been buried on the depth chart. If they can get value for him now, rather than cutting him later and getting nothing, well, at least that's something (even something SoP could learn). At least SoP can be given a modicum of credit for attempting (though failing) to get Whitner, who by all regards is a "Plan A" player, to address an area of obvious need.

In this situation, they Bengals are probably overpaying for Mays. The contract Mays signed pre-dates the rookie wage scale, and compared to signing a r2 safety this year or next, would have to be considered overpaying. If Mays works out to start and make an impact in the run heavy AFC North, then we should all rejoice. If not, then he is just another in a long line of SoP's bargain bin binge-ing that is a result of ignoring the safety position early in the draft, year after year.

[Sea Ray]

In this situation, they Bengals are probably overpaying for Mays. The contract Mays signed pre-dates the rookie wage scale, and compared to signing a r2 safety this year or next, would have to be considered overpaying. If Mays works out to start and make an impact in the run heavy AFC North, then we should all rejoice. If not, then he is just another in a long line of SoP's bargain bin binge-ing that is a result of ignoring the safety position early in the draft, year after year.

I think you're off base. It seems to me that the Bengals couldn't get off any cheaper. The way it looks here, the 49ers paid out his hefty bonus but the Bengals only owe him his minimal salaries for the next few years. In fact I think these are league minimums:

7/30/2010: Signed a four-year, $3.91 million contract. The deal included a $2.075 million signing bonus. 2011: $405,000, 2012: $490,000, 2013: $575,000, 2014: Free Agent

/>http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5760/taylor-mays

[derekshank]

In this situation, they Bengals are probably overpaying for Mays. The contract Mays signed pre-dates the rookie wage scale, and compared to signing a r2 safety this year or next, would have to be considered overpaying. If Mays works out to start and make an impact in the run heavy AFC North, then we should all rejoice. If not, then he is just another in a long line of SoP's bargain bin binge-ing that is a result of ignoring the safety position early in the draft, year after year.

I think you're off base. It seems to me that the Bengals couldn't get off any cheaper. The way it looks here, the 49ers paid out his hefty bonus but the Bengals only owe him his minimal salaries for the next few years. In fact I think these are league minimums:

7/30/2010: Signed a four-year, $3.91 million contract. The deal included a $2.075 million signing bonus. 2011: $405,000, 2012: $490,000, 2013: $575,000, 2014: Free Agent

/>http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5760/taylor-mays

Who cares what his salary is? With the Bengals salary cap situation, it's completely irrelevant.

The only question is his talent. Is Mays a better option than what they could have gotten with a 4th round pick in next year's draft? Time will tell, but it seems like a no-brainer.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Who cares what his salary is? With the Bengals salary cap situation, it's completely irrelevant.

A damn good point. Where's our local Mike Brown apologist/fluffer to tell us how much he cares about winning, how much he spends on salaries, etc? They're, what, $30M under the cap? Not like this stacked Super Bowl contender could use more talent, but still.

[Sea Ray]

I agree, Mays salary is not important in the grand scheme of things. It's important only in the sense of being factually correct on this board when someone opines that we're likely overpaying Mays based on the CBA at the time of his signing. The truth is we're getting him on the cheap since SF has already paid out his signing bonus.

[derekshank]

Who cares what his salary is? With the Bengals salary cap situation, it's completely irrelevant.

A damn good point. Where's our local Mike Brown apologist/fluffer to tell us how much he cares about winning, how much he spends on salaries, etc? They're, what, $30M under the cap? Not like this stacked Super Bowl contender could use more talent, but still.

It's something like $27mil under. But let's not act like the Bengals are the only team doing this.

There are 4 teams with more room than Cincy (TB, KC, Jac, Cle), and 3 other teams that have more than $20mil in space (Den at $26.5, Buf at 23.5, and SF with $22.5). That's 25% of the league with an absolute ton of cap space.

Also, consider that the primary reason there is so much cap space in Cincy is not MB's cheapness... but because Palmer didn't show. Had he not pulled his tomfoolery, Cincy would be $16mil under the cap... which would put them near the middle of the pack for spending.

This cap number wasn't the long term plan of a diabolical conspiracy. What excuse do the other 7 teams in this situation have?

[HoosierCat]

What excuse do the other 7 teams in this situation have?

With the odd exception of Denver, it's business as usual for these franchises. Here's are reluctant spenders ranked by revenues (per Forbes):

Denver 8

Tampa Bay 12

Cleveland 16

Kansas City 22

Cincinnati 24

Buffalo 26

San Francisco 27

Jacksonville 30

And here they are ranked by operating income:

Tampa Bay 4

Cincinnati 5

Kansas City 6

Cleveland 12

Buffalo 17

Jacksonville 19

Denver 22

San Francisco 23

Except for Denver, these are all teams well-versed in the art of turning a profit in the league despite not being among the big-revenue teams. This year's CBA (and next year's) was set up to allow teams to free ride on the spending of bigger-spending clubs before a spending floor kicks back in in 2013.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Bengals ended up filling in their unused cap space with extension for guys like Hall, Whitworth and perhaps Simpson and/or Caldwell. But it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, either.

[Sea Ray]

And here they are ranked by operating income:

Tampa Bay 4

Cincinnati 5

Kansas City 6

Cleveland 12

Buffalo 17

Jacksonville 19

Denver 22

San Francisco 23

Except for Denver, these are all teams well-versed in the art of turning a profit in the league despite not being among the big-revenue teams. This year's CBA (and next year's) was set up to allow teams to free ride on the spending of bigger-spending clubs before a spending floor kicks back in in 2013.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Bengals ended up filling in their unused cap space with extension for guys like Hall, Whitworth and perhaps Simpson and/or Caldwell. But it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, either.

The Bengals have the 5th highest operating income? Am I reading that right?

[derekshank]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Bengals ended up filling in their unused cap space with extension for guys like Hall, Whitworth and perhaps Simpson and/or Caldwell. But it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, either.

Same. And the decision will be based, not on some imagined need to spend money... but almost entirely on the performance of the player in question.

In some ways, MB is one of the few remaining capitalists.

[HoosierCat]

The Bengals have the 5th highest operating income? Am I reading that right?

Yup. Note that these are from Forbes' 2010 rankings which use 2009 data. I don't think they've updated the numbers yet but the '10 ranking came out in late August last year so I would expect something soon.

[HairOnFire]

The safety position is one where this team has generally been very active in free agency. Daryl Williams, JoJuan Armour, Rogers Beckett, Kim Herring, Anthony Mitchell, O-maybetheworstfootballplayerever-halete, Dexter Jackson, Mike Doss, Hebert, Roy Williams, Crocker, Reggie Nelson, Wilson.... that's a long list.

Yeah, it's a long list. And roughly half of the list is filled with big bodied safeties well known for big hits and pass coverage liabilities. Add in a steady diet of big bodied draft picks like Robert Sands and the list gets even longer. Mays fits the profile perfectly. Furthermore, despite being as unproven as unproven can be Mays still manages to stack up pretty well with most of the names on the list, with the obvious exception of Roy Williams in his prime.

There are no guarantees in life, but this should work. Prior to the draft Zimmer interviewed this kid extensively and thought so much of him that he convinced the Bengals to inquire about trading up to get him, and that speaks loudly. Zimmer seems convinced Mays is coachable, doesn't seem overly concerned by the things Mays can't do well, and as for the player himself, let me repeat......Taylor Mays will will not be outworked by anyone. His body is proof of that much, but he's also well known for staying late, watching film, etc. By most accounts he's as high character as high character gets. So if he fails it will be due to poor instincts that can't be corrected, and Zimmer's betting his own reputation that isn't the case.

It should work.

[kingwilly]

In this situation, they Bengals are probably overpaying for Mays. The contract Mays signed pre-dates the rookie wage scale, and compared to signing a r2 safety this year or next, would have to be considered overpaying. If Mays works out to start and make an impact in the run heavy AFC North, then we should all rejoice. If not, then he is just another in a long line of SoP's bargain bin binge-ing that is a result of ignoring the safety position early in the draft, year after year.

I think you're off base. It seems to me that the Bengals couldn't get off any cheaper. The way it looks here, the 49ers paid out his hefty bonus but the Bengals only owe him his minimal salaries for the next few years. In fact I think these are league minimums:

7/30/2010: Signed a four-year, $3.91 million contract. The deal included a $2.075 million signing bonus. 2011: $405,000, 2012: $490,000, 2013: $575,000, 2014: Free Agent

/>http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5760/taylor-mays

Who cares what his salary is? With the Bengals salary cap situation, it's completely irrelevant.

The only question is his talent. Is Mays a better option than what they could have gotten with a 4th round pick in next year's draft? Time will tell, but it seems like a no-brainer.

No. It is relevant, when you talk about giving up draft picks to get him.

I do agree it should be about his talent. If he was likely to be cut, the way I view it, then could be a waste of a future pick to have the privelege of getting him here. That is how I consider it overpaying.

It does seem like a no-brainer, and in this division I think he will flourish. He can cover the TE's and come up in run support. Perfect.

[kingwilly]

It should work.

I agree.

He and Nelson form a solid pair. Crocker will start but Mays will take over by week 6.

[kingwilly]

It wouldn't surprise me if the Bengals ended up filling in their unused cap space with extension for guys like Hall, Whitworth and perhaps Simpson and/or Caldwell. But it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, either.

Same. And the decision will be based, not on some imagined need to spend money... but almost entirely on the performance of the player in question.

In some ways, MB is one of the few remaining capitalists.

no, he is a socialist dressed as a capitalist. The NFL's revenue sharing plan has erased any true capitalism from the NFL as an enterprise. It goes all the way down to jersey sales.

Mike Brown is very good at gaming the system the NFL has in place. The NFL does not have a business model where "winning" on the field = "winning" at the bank. SoP has executed perfectly the plan to operate his business in the most profitable method wihtin the NFL system. But don't confuse it or him for capitalism.

[Sea Ray]

It does seem like a no-brainer, and in this division I think he will flourish. He can cover the TE's and come up in run support. Perfect.

"In this division" is the key. In this division you have to go helmet to helmet with the likes of Peyton Hillis, Rashard Mendenhall, Hines Ward, Antwan Boldin and co. These aren't shifty, speedy guys but are guys who'll bloody your nose and run you over. How many guys will willingly take on Hillis one on one? If Hillis is comin' downhill at my defense, I want Taylor Mays on my side.

Now Ray Rice may give him trouble. That's up to Zimmer to scheme up

[HairOnFire]

It should work.

I agree.

He and Nelson form a solid pair. Crocker will start but Mays will take over by week 6.

Quite honestly, I think the trade for Mays could work even if he never earns a starting role. And one of the reasons I say that is precisely due to the modest salary cost. Furthermore, if the draft compensation surrendered turns out to be less than first rumored, well....so much the better.

From what I've read the Bears were interested in trading for Mays simply because of their need for backup LB and SS help. Coupled with the snaps Mays could add by playing special teams the Bears were probably looking for a role player who wouldn't be asked to play more than 15-20 snaps a game.....which I'm guessing roughly matches what the Bengals have planned for Mays this season if everyone stays healthy.