The Black Hole of Professional Football

[HoosierCat]

Take it away, Dave Rimington...

Rimington was a first-round pick of the Bengals in the 1983 draft and made the NFL's All-Rookie team that season. But his five years in Cincinnati didn't go smoothly and ended with controversy.

The Bengals released Rimington before the 1988 season after saying he failed a physical exam -- a questionable outcome after Philadelphia cleared Rimington to play immediately. He retired after the 1989 season.

"I went from one of the best organizations in college football to probably one of the worst organizations in the NFL," Rimington said. "I went from a weight room that was half the size of a football field to a weight room that looked like a junior high weight room, and the strength coach didn't want anybody to lift. ... It was ridiculous the stuff we had to go through there. I just had to shake my head. It's like the black hole of professional football.

"Good players go there and you never hear from them again."

/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj6XtZrxvw

[kingwilly]

Take it away, Dave Rimington...

Rimington was a first-round pick of the Bengals in the 1983 draft and made the NFL's All-Rookie team that season. But his five years in Cincinnati didn't go smoothly and ended with controversy.

The Bengals released Rimington before the 1988 season after saying he failed a physical exam -- a questionable outcome after Philadelphia cleared Rimington to play immediately. He retired after the 1989 season.

"I went from one of the best organizations in college football to probably one of the worst organizations in the NFL," Rimington said. "I went from a weight room that was half the size of a football field to a weight room that looked like a junior high weight room, and the strength coach didn't want anybody to lift. ... It was ridiculous the stuff we had to go through there. I just had to shake my head. It's like the black hole of professional football.

"Good players go there and you never hear from them again."

/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj6XtZrxvw

Isn't it crazy?

I used to ride my bike to the west side, over the viaduct above the bengals old practice field and facility. The place was a few hundred yards from the mill creek, and directly over the fence next to the field was a dump yard for 55 gal drums. I remember one time, maybe 1992 or 93, I stopped one fall afternoon to watch them practice, and realized just how bad the place looked. The fact that there was this barrel dump right over the fence looked ridiculous.

All the old stories about small towels, terrible weight room, extremely poor facilities, make me cringe.

I had the chance to visit Staples center, and tour the Kings and the Lakers facilities. Might as well be on another planet.

[ArmyBengal]

Again, is this any surprise ?? I'm sure someone will make a comment about f*ck Rimington or something and that is fine, but it doesn't make him wrong. Sure they have probably made tons of improvements since he last took the field for the Bengals, but during that time frame, nothing surprises me. The fact that those ideas are still considered as possibilities with the team all these years later is staggering.

While I will argue that maybe we aren't the worst franchise in sports, we aren't far from the bottom.

[HoosierCat]

Isn't it crazy?

I used to ride my bike to the west side, over the viaduct above the bengals old practice field and facility. The place was a few hundred yards from the mill creek, and directly over the fence next to the field was a dump yard for 55 gal drums. I remember one time, maybe 1992 or 93, I stopped one fall afternoon to watch them practice, and realized just how bad the place looked. The fact that there was this barrel dump right over the fence looked ridiculous.

All the old stories about small towels, terrible weight room, extremely poor facilities, make me cringe.

I had the chance to visit Staples center, and tour the Kings and the Lakers facilities. Might as well be on another planet.

Thanks for the memory, willie. The old stories make me cringe, too, but I think it's important to tell them, if only because the Paul can make Mike look downright progressive sometimes.

Staying out of the heat yesterday I picked up a copy of that Paul Brown biography I reviewed on stripehype a couple years ago and was re-reading the part about his time in Cincy. And you could just pull stuff, update the names, and publish it today. "Now he's profit motivated and advocates programs and policies to keep other teams from doing things he doesn't want to have to pay to do in order to keep up." That's then-Cowboys owner Tex Schramm on Paul in the late 80s, but it might as well be Jerry Jones on Mike today.

Mike wants bonuses and escalators to be hard to obtain? Sheesh, when SF owner Ed Dibartalo offered his players a bonus if they won the division, Paul complained. No bonuses!

He refused to deal with agents. That's how Mike ended up negotiating contracts. And the union? If you wanted a ticket out of Cincy, the fastest way was to become the player's rep on the Bengals. One time after he'd shipped the last rep off, the players voted Ken Anderson as the rep. He couldn't trade Anderson, so he called Ken into his office and basically browbeat him into not doing it.

"I get the image of being cheap and I certainly don't want to lose it." That's a direct PB quote. Love 'im or hate 'im, Mike comes by it honestly. Paul's one saving grace was that he had a good nose for good players. So he could make it work on a budget. Mike, not so much.

[HairOnFire]

The old stories make me cringe, too, but I think it's important to tell them, if only because the Paul can make Mike look downright progressive sometimes.

Important to tell them?

Why?

Dave Rimington retired roughly a decade before PBS opened, right? So the inferior facilities being discussed in the no longer exist, right? In fact, none of the training staff personel being criticized by Rimington are still with the team, and none of their programs have survived. So please forgive, but I have to ask aloud why it's important to tell old stories specifically written to make Bengal fans like you and I cringe?

Did the information included in the article change any opinion you might have had? Did you learn anything you didn't already know? Were you in danger of forgetting past failures?

Last point. It never fails. Every couple of years someone in the world slowly realizes that a major college award for offensive trenchwork is actually named for ex-Bengal, Dave Rimington, thereby prompting them to wonder aloud how a can't miss college player once thought to be destined for a hall of fame professional career could instead, decades later, be considered little more than a mediocre journeyman NFL offensive lineman barely worth a second mention in any conversation worth having. Intriqued, they search out and then find Dave Rimington himself, and they bravely ask him directly why someone once thought to be so gifted could, in fact, mostly suck. And for his part Dave Rimington has never disappointed them, always blaming someone else for his own mediocrity.

If there's an important lesson to be learned here, and I doubt there is, it's probably got something to do with the way underachieving players who start blaming their own personal failings on others will probably be doing it still several decades later. Because once started it's not a pathway easily abandoned. Thus, the all too familiar players refrain of...."Yeah, I could have been great, but someone else was always keeping me down."

Some things never change.

Rimington = Housh = Palmer

[COB]

Thus, the all too familiar players refrain of...."Yeah, I could have been great, but someone else was always keeping me down."

Some things never change.

Rimington = Housh = Palmer

Chad's in that mix. It's actually a pretty nice luxury that most guys drafted by the Bengals don't understand until after they retire. If you don't succeed as spectacularly in the NFL as you had hoped (about 95% of all NFL players fall in this category), only Bengal players can say, "Yea, I could have been great, but, you know, the Bengals and all..."

[HoosierCat]

The old stories make me cringe, too, but I think it's important to tell them, if only because the Paul can make Mike look downright progressive sometimes.

Important to tell them?

Why?

Well, read what you quoted again. Then ask yourself what can be found online, mikebrownisprogressive.com or mikebrownsucks.com? You and I are old farts. We remember that it used to be even worse. Given how down Bengals fandom is right now, that's not a bad thing to point out.

Rimington = Housh = Palmer

I'd say it's more like Rimington = Warrick = Pollack. I put him more along the injury flop axis than the quitter axis.

[HairOnFire]

You and I are old farts. We remember that it used to be even worse. Given how down Bengals fandom is right now, that's not a bad thing to point out.

Fair enough. Now take a moment to consider what you quoted and ask yourself why we're supposed to take the word of Dave Rimington as some sort of undisputable gospel. In fact, because we're older farts than most....isn't it worth pointing out how we've heard Dave Rimington make the same tired excuses for his own individual failures for more than 20 years?

Consider Rimington's claim that the Bengals were considered the black hole of professional football then AND now. In the decade that Rimington played the Bengals were a familiar team in the playoffs and qualified for a Super Bowl championship twice in the same decade, right? In fact, their won/loss record over that time period proves they were a far superior team to the Eagle team Rimington escaped to.

Furthermore, consider Rimington's attacks on unnamed members of the teams coaching and training staffs from that time period. Not only is Rimington's attack deliberately and gutlessly vague...it's dishonest. The Bengals O-line coach from that time period was one of the most respected names in the NFL, right? Good enough to produce three offensive lineman during that time period who were familiar faces at Pro Bowl games. In fact, good enough to take an obscure late round pick, Bruce Kozerski, and quickly turn him into a far better offensive lineman than Dave Rimington could ever manage to be in Cincy OR Philly.

I put him more along the injury flop axis than the quitter axis.

Why quibble? It's Dave Rimington.

[HoosierCat]

Consider Rimington's claim that the Bengals were considered the black hole of professional football then AND now.

Aren't they? I mean, what's the most recent outrage among Bengaldom? That there was 1* Bengal named to a list of the top 100 players. In 2009, they took the division crown and swept alleged powerhouses Baltimore and Pittsburgh, and got not so much as a single pro bowl nod. And what was the theme last offseason as a result? That the Bengals are the Rodney Dangerfields of football: they don't get no respect.

I think Cincinnati fans know that they have some good young players (Gresham, Shipley, Atkins, Dunlap, maybe even Simpson) but outside us all that escapes the relentless suck of this team's reputation is the Ochocinco Show and The Latest Story of the Latest Player Who Wants Out.

[HairOnFire]

Consider Rimington's claim that the Bengals were considered the black hole of professional football then AND now.

Aren't they?

Hell no.

Again, during Rimington's playing career the Bengals went to the Super Bowl twice in a 7 or 8 year span. How many teams can claim better? And I remind you, they managed that trick despite Rimington consistently underperforming even when healthy, which he very rarely was.

Furthermore, Rimington criticism of unnamed Bengal coaching and training staff members demands the reader ignore a couple of very relevant facts, including the high level of success achieved by other members of the Bengals offensive line during the exact same time period. Why were multiple members of the same Bengals O-line able to achieve high levels of success during the same time period Dave Rimington accomplished almost nothing? Weren't those players forced to endure the same substandard facilities? Didn't they recieve the same coaching? Weren't they subjected to the same laughable training programs as Rimington?

In retrospect, wouldn't Dave "Can't Miss" Rimington beg borrow and steal to have a career as good as Bruce Kozerski managed?

Rimington's remarks make it seem as if nobody could overcome the obstacles that come with Bengaldom, but the real truth is far different. The real truth is that most of Rimington's fellow Bengals had very few problems performing at a much higher level than Rimington ever managed over his entire career. He busted. They didn't.

Last point. I can still vaguely remember reading a now decades old SI or Sporting News article that attempted to explain why so many so-called "can't miss" college players end up doing the impossible. Included in the piece was a bit about Dave Rimington, and despite the passage of many years I can still remember several of the conclusions drawn. First, pro scouts were said to have vastly overrated Rimington's overall athletic skill level. He wasn't as quick as first thought, wasn't as agile, and was actually a below average player when attempting to hit moving targets. In short, a bit of a stiff. But more importantly, despite his college based reputation as a workout warrior Rimington was said to have had remarkably average functional football strength. I can still recall the article describing Rimington as being naturally "farmboy strong", but a suprisingly weak drive blocker against the stronger competition he faced every week in the NFL. He struggled from the start. Finally, Rimington's ever growing list of injuries prevented him from directly addressing his playing shortcomings, including his suprising lack of power, and resulted in teams, including the Eagles, placing limitations on how Rimington could train, a fact that Rimington still seems bothered by. Perhaps he imagines his career turning out far differently if only he'd been allowed to do more bicep curls? Maybe then Dave Rimington would be able to look back on a career that was decidely less pussified, right?

I mean, what's the most recent outrage among Bengaldom? That there was 1* Bengal named to a list of the top 100 players. In 2009, they took the division crown and swept alleged powerhouses Baltimore and Pittsburgh, and got not so much as a single pro bowl nod. And what was the theme last offseason as a result? That the Bengals are the Rodney Dangerfields of football: they don't get no respect.

Trust me, I'm not outraged.

If you ask me the current team is getting all of the respect they deserve, and if none of it's players are deemed worthy of individual honors then perhaps it has something to do with the selfish, undisciplined, and fairly gutless way this team collectively played last season. And maybe no Bengal player made the Pro Bowl after sweeping the division the year prior simply because too many observers felt this team still had too much to prove, and wanted to see more before passing out bon mots and kudos.

But what does last years Bengal team have to do with Dave Rimington, a busted draft pick from decades past? Or even more to the point, why should anyone listen to proven draft bust attempt to explain away why his professional career didn't amount to a gob of warm spit?

[HoosierCat]

If you ask me the current team is getting all of the respect they deserve, and if none of it's players are deemed worthy of individual honors then perhaps it has something to do with the selfish, undisciplined, and fairly gutless way this team collectively played last season. And maybe no Bengal player made the Pro Bowl after sweeping the division the year prior simply because too many observers felt this team still had too much to prove, and wanted to see more before passing out bon mots and kudos.

Probably true, but beside the point. How does it look to a player eyeing potential a potential new home? Like a place where no matter if you do well or the team wins, you get no recognition. In other words, a black hole. So who do they get? Guys with no other choices, like Benson or Tank or Bryant or TO. Cincinnati is a place where the only way you can get any attention beyond the event horizon is by acting like a clown or a douchebag. Lucky us.

As to Rimington, I didn't read his comments as an attempt to justify anything about himself or his time in Cincy. The weight room story is well-known. Heck, at one point Sam Wyche tried to get the whole team a member ship to the downtown Y it was so bad (of course PB declined the request). As for the black hole, again, that seems self-evident to me.

[HairOnFire]

If you ask me the current team is getting all of the respect they deserve, and if none of it's players are deemed worthy of individual honors then perhaps it has something to do with the selfish, undisciplined, and fairly gutless way this team collectively played last season. And maybe no Bengal player made the Pro Bowl after sweeping the division the year prior simply because too many observers felt this team still had too much to prove, and wanted to see more before passing out bon mots and kudos.

Probably true, but beside the point.

Like hell it's beside the point. Winning matters, right? So why shouldn't observers continue slighting Bengal players who individually stand out on bad teams OR on rare occasions....on seemingly good teams that go one and done in the playoffs? After all, bad teams often rely too heavily on whatever star player they might have, thereby inflating the individual stats produced. Compare that to winning teams where individual stats are sacrificed for the common good.

How does it look to a player eyeing potential a potential new home? Like a place where no matter if you do well or the team wins, you get no recognition. In other words, a black hole. So who do they get? Guys with no other choices, like Benson or Tank or Bryant or TO.

Why are you limiting the discussion to free agents? Traditionally this teams most valuable and highest paid players are draft picks who are developed into starters, and the best of that bunch never seem to have much problem cracking a Pro Bowl roster. So in retrospect your remark about Bengal players not getting recognition whether the team wins or not is pretty far off base. In reality, the success level of the team almost always dictates how much recognition the individual players receive. As it should.

As to Rimington, I didn't read his comments as an attempt to justify anything about himself or his time in Cincy.

Well, if not that then what were they attempted to be? Some remarkable tidbit of insight from the distant past that helps explain why Carson Palmer is sleeping late in the mornings?

f**k Dave Rimington. And yeah, I say that precisely because I am an old fart who remembers who he is, as well as what he is.

[HoosierCat]

Like hell it's beside the point. Winning matters, right?

Not unless it has some consistency over time. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The Bengals won in 2009 and 2005, remember? Yet Cincy remains a black hole.

Why are you limiting the discussion to free agents? Traditionally this teams most valuable and highest paid players are draft picks who are developed into starters,

Because draft picks don't have any choice. That's why they call it a draft. And how many of them seek to escape at first opportunity? And of the ones who don't, how many turn into cancers, clowns and quitters?

Well, if not that then what were they attempted to be?

Ask the writer. They're comments at the tail end of an article about Rimington running Boomer's CF foundation. I would have thought you'd find them fairly uplifting, given that they support your contention that even when things suck, players can make different choices than guys like Chad and Dillon and Carson did, and win despite a crappy organization like the Bengals did in the 80s. Try to help a buddy out and this is what I get...

[HairOnFire]

Like hell it's beside the point. Winning matters, right?

Not unless it has some consistency over time. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Well, wouldn't you say the Bengal teams of the 80's won with some consistency over time? Multiple playoff appearances over the decade and two appearances in the Super Bowl, right? To be fair, it CAN be argued that the Bengal teams of the 80's should have won more than they actually did, but obviously they did manage to win often enough during the years that make up Rimington's NFL career to make a mockery of his claim that the Bengals have always been a black hole.

What Rimington or Boomer or Palmer or even Chad won't say aloud is how the Bengals roster is far too often made up of unfocused, undisciplined, and easily distracted players who only occasionally rouse themselves to do what is required to overcome the surmountable obstacles placed upon them by a too conservative front office. Obviously, Bengal teams of the past were able to overcome negative conditions more pronounced than the current team will ever face...as could the teams of the present if they cared enough.

....draft picks don't have any choice. That's why they call it a draft. And how many of them seek to escape at first opportunity?

Of course many of them try to leave. Fixing problems is hard. Being a leader is difficult. It's far easier to simply produce a few individual stats proving things aren't your fault, and then say nothing....for years. And it's easier still to simply leave, especially after you've looked around the roster and realized how many clock punchers there are here.

They're comments at the tail end of an article about Rimington running Boomer's CF foundation. I would have thought you'd find them fairly uplifting, given that they support your contention that even when things suck, players can make different choices than guys like Chad and Dillon and Carson did, and win despite a crappy organization like the Bengals did in the 80s.

Well, props to Rimington for the charity work. It's also nice to hear the news that Boomer isn't such a cockbag that he can't make friends. But none of that changes my feelings about Rimington making decades of excuses for his own failed career....always blaming others for him being a career afterthought instead of an all-pro. And for those of you feel compelled to offer an injury excuse for Rimington, as you've already done, I remind you that what you're implying is far different than what Rimington has always claimed. Rimington blames people, not fate or bad luck.

[membengal]

Looking forward to David Versar using the same tired excuse.