Biggest Misconception?

[HoosierCat]

So why did they pay him a $15 million signing bonus? To lock him up 2009 through 2014. Cut and dried. He only played 2 years of that extension.

It would be more accurate to say that's why they paid him a $9 million option bonus in 2007.

Though it's usually called a nine-year deal, IIRC it was really a 10-year deal because it also included 2005. The reason the Bengals rushed to get Palmer signed before the end of the year was that they had $5 million in unused cap space in 2005 and wanted to apply part of the signing bonus to that year.

My guess, given the 2007 bonus, is that the deal had two parts: a new, three year contract covering 2005-2007, with a $9 million option payable Jan. 1, 2007 for seven more years (which I believe was the maximum length for an NFL contract under the old rules) starting in 2008.

That $15 million was almost certainly amortized over the 2005-07 period since teams couldn't count option years when amortizing signing bonuses. Which jibes with my memory from the time when I was looking at the cap impact -- Palmer's cap hit actually rose sharply over the first few years but then declined on the back end, a reversal of the usual backloading strategy.

It can be looked at as a new 9 year deal, but it has to be looked at in context with what was already signed and in effect.

Fair enough, but again it wasn't as if Palmer was demanding a new deal. This was the Bengals backing the Brink's truck up to his house. I think it's safe to say that, if the Bengals had it all to do over again with benefit of hindsight, they wouldn't make the offer. And if Palmer knew then what he knows now, he probably doesn't sign a new deal.

The more I look at it, the more I believe Carson Palmer and David Dunn robbed the Bengals.

I would say that in the end, both sides lost.

[COB]

I would say that in the end, both sides lost.

The most irksome thing about this whole affair is that, as you pointed out, the Bengals did this to themselves. Mike Brown, considered cheap and inconsiderate of players, couldn't throw enough at his golden boy. And in the end, it came back to bite him.

In my opinion the Bengals came out a lot worse than Palmer. He just seems to either want to retire, or can't resist the demands of a wife who is unsupportive of his incredibly lucrative career. The Bengals, on the other hand, are suddenly cast into the role of team with no franchise quarterback. I'd look up the won-loss record of such teams, but we all know it won't be pretty.

[HoosierCat]

I would say that in the end, both sides lost.

The most irksome thing about this whole affair is that, as you pointed out, the Bengals did this to themselves. Mike Brown, considered cheap and inconsiderate of players, couldn't throw enough at his golden boy. And in the end, it came back to bite him.

Absolutely. Even when the Bengals do the right thing, somehow it ends up being the wrong thing. I'm not a big believer in curses but this team makes a strong case.

In my opinion the Bengals came out a lot worse than Palmer. He just seems to either want to retire, or can't resist the demands of a wife who is unsupportive of his incredibly lucrative career. The Bengals, on the other hand, are suddenly cast into the role of team with no franchise quarterback. I'd look up the won-loss record of such teams, but we all know it won't be pretty.

I think there are many who would argue that even with Palmer, we didn't have a franchise QB.

[HairOnFire]

I think it's silly that Carson Palmer is getting destroyed for deciding not to subject himself to a hopeless career. Of all people, how can Bengal fans not understand why he wants to get the hell out of there?

Hopeless? Watch a tape of last season's Bengals/San Diego game and tell me why Palmer's fate is to be judged more hopeless than that of Phillip Rivers?

Rivers, like Palmer, has had almost no playoff success with the Chargers. Both players play for teams that underperform as often as they meet expectations, miss the playoffs routinely, and have failed to live up to expectations during the entire careers of both starting QB's. Plus, both players play for team owners who are said to care only about profits and front offices that will routinely, almost annually, play the hardest version of hardball with star players and top draft picks over salary issues, to the detriment of the team. And just like in Cincy, the Chargers have also allowed a fairly long list of star players to leave in free agency, usually over money. Furthermore, San Diego, like Cincinnati, routinely builds it's rosters around known character risks. In fact, year after year Charger players are far more likely to be arrested for serious criminal acts than their mostly drunken and stoned Bengal counterparts.

Point blank, despite ALL of the above, who amongst us really thinks that Charger fans would line up to make the same sort of Bengal-like excuses for Rivers if he suddenly gave that team an ultimatum that would all but cripple that teams ability to compete?

No, this one is on us. We're the fanbase filled with embittered cranks only too willing to make excuses for players who openly tank a season, or make excuses about being blinded by the spotlight. We even defend underperforming star players whose last act as a team leader is to demand a crippling trade from a team that had paid him so well to be a leader, a role the player could only bring himself to perform quietly, if at all.

[HairOnFire]

I would say that in the end, both sides lost.

The most irksome thing about this whole affair is that, as you pointed out, the Bengals did this to themselves. Mike Brown, considered cheap and inconsiderate of players, couldn't throw enough at his golden boy. And in the end, it came back to bite him.

Absolutely. Even when the Bengals do the right thing, somehow it ends up being the wrong thing. I'm not a big believer in curses but this team makes a strong case.

Seems to me that if the front office can't get positive results even after doing the right thing the blame for the failure lies elsewhere. Like with the player himself. But around here we rarely bother considering why things go so horribly wrong even when everyone does everything right.

Furthermore, we're not talking about the type of curse seen most often on NFL circles, are we? Because for one thing, Palmer is healthy. In fact, nobody bothers disputing the fact that he can still play if, like the tin woodsman, he can find his heart in time.

[HoosierCat]

Seems to me that if the front office can't get positive results even after doing the right thing the blame for the failure lies elsewhere. Like with the player himself. But around here we rarely bother considering why things go so horribly wrong even when everyone does everything right.

There were a lot of everbodies doing everythings between the moment Carson put pen to paper in late '05 and the time he walked into Mike's office last January and asked to be dealt. And not all of those things were done right, not by a long shot. But I don't think we really need to rehash the last five seasons in detail. The bottom line is that everyone's responsible -- players, coaches and management.

The aggravating thing is, if asked all three groups will talk a good game. Carson takes the fall for every pick. Marvin takes the fall for every loss. Mike takes the fall for every poor season.

Yet nothing. Ever. F**king. Changes.

Carson says the interceptions are his fault...and goes right out and makes the same WTF throws the next week. Marvin says he didn't have the team ready to play...and then they still look like discombobulated garbage the next week. Mike says to blame the poor season on him...and then declines to change the lackadaisical mom 'n' pop approach that's produced two decades (and counting) of misery.

Basically, the whole organization appears to be satisfied with showing up. If they occasionally luck into a good year and make the playoffs, great. If not, well, there's always next year, and in the meantime the Browns can count their money, Marvin can giggle his way through charity golf tournaments and Chad can dance or ride bulls or wrestle snakes or whatever. And I'm beginning to feel that they can all go f**k themselves.

[HairOnFire]

Basically, the whole organization appears to be satisfied with showing up.

Exactly. Clock punchers. Players included.

We're no longer talking about a player who blows off a play or two OR a player who underperforms for a season. We're suddenly talking about a culture of losing that will never change until the players themselves refuse to let their entire careers be dictated by the performance of a poor front office. And IMHO that will NEVER happen until this teams fanbase discontinues it's blind support of the players who passive aggressively use poor management as an excuse for their own poor performances and lack of leadership. Mike Brown's incompetence should only be considered a pass during those times when he builds a talentless team. The players have to be held accountable for their own lack of guts, smarts, poise, and yeah....fire in the belly.

If they occasionally luck into a good year and make the playoffs, great. If not, well, there's always next year, and in the meantime the Browns can count their money, Marvin can giggle his way through charity golf tournaments and Chad can dance or ride bulls or wrestle snakes or whatever.

In all honesty I don't think that's what we're dealing with here. What I think we have is a front office that wants to win, but maybe not as much as the next guy....assuming for amoment that the next guy cares less about coaches and players having families and stuff. This franchise is practically built upon the belief that everyone, from the top level to the practice squad, deserves another chance, and then another chance. In theory this all seems perfectly understandable if not downright admirable. In reality, the message it sends is there's no accountability. Or if you prefer, what passes for stability around here is really stagnation. And before anyone points out that this is a failure of management, which it very clearly is, then at least we have to acknowledge that Bengal players are just as responsible for the culture of losing that has resulted by refusing to hold other players accountable. For example, when Chad deliberately tanked a season, an act that would have once been considered unforgivable by the players themselves, but somehow wasn't.

When compared to their counterparts on other NFL teams Bengal players don't police their own lockerroom, don't criticize other players for unprofessional behavior, and largely allow other players the freedom to conduct business in whatever manner they see fit without criticism. In short, they never demand more of themselves. Instead, they show up and punch the clock. And for the most part we let them.

And I'm beginning to feel that they can all go f**k themselves.

Well, in their defense one of the Bengals players claimed the team was blinded by the spotlight last year.

Problem solved.

[HoosierCat]

This franchise is practically built upon the belief that everyone, from the top level to the practice squad, deserves another chance, and then another chance. In theory this all seems perfectly understandable if not downright admirable. In reality, the message it sends is there's no accountability. Or if you prefer, what passes for stability around here is really stagnation. And before anyone points out that this is a failure of management, which it very clearly is, then at least we have to acknowledge that Bengal players are just as responsible for the culture of losing that has resulted by refusing to hold other players accountable. For example, when Chad deliberately tanked a season, an act that would have once been considered unforgivable by the players themselves, but somehow wasn't.

Well put.

We're suddenly talking about a culture of losing that will never change until the players themselves refuse to let their entire careers be dictated by the performance of a poor front office. And IMHO that will NEVER happen until this teams fanbase discontinues it's blind support of the players who passive aggressively use poor management as an excuse for their own poor performances and lack of leadership.

I was with you on the first sentence, but I'm not convinced of the second. Not that I object to fans calling out poor play, bad behavior and excuse-making, I'm just not sure the record supports the idea that it has an impact. Take Chad: the guy's been under withering fire from fans for years, but it hasn't impacted his attitude one iota.

To put it briefly, I think the one thing that players, coaching and management all agree on is that the fans are idiots. And if there's anything that history says is guaranteed to stiffen Mike Brown's already petrified spine, it's "advice" from the fans -- thanks in no small part to the copious amount of "you suck hire a GM fire yourself" letters, billboards, web sites, airplane banners, urinal cakes, etc., he's received over the years.

If there were any evidence that calling out the players would either induce them to straighten up or get management to take action, I'd be all for creating BlameTheBengalsClockPunchingPlayersNotMikeBrown.com tomorrow. But I've yet to see it.

[HairOnFire]

To put it briefly, I think the one thing that players, coaching and management all agree on is that the fans are idiots. And if there's anything that history says is guaranteed to stiffen Mike Brown's already petrified spine, it's "advice" from the fans -- thanks in no small part to the copious amount of "you suck hire a GM fire yourself" letters, billboards, web sites, airplane banners, urinal cakes, etc., he's received over the years.

You're making my point for me better than I could do myself.

IMHO all attempts made by fans to hold this teams front office accountable for it's poor record have failed utterly, and they'll continue to fail as long as the fans core strategy is based upon actively rooting against or attempting to embarrass the team. In fact, I believe strongly that all that's been accomplished by vast hordes of roaming FedUps is the entire Bengal fanbase has now earned a reputation for being as clueless and misquided as the team they follow. Worse, when this teams own fans repeatedly support players regardless of circumstances we enable the clock punchers on the roster, all but guaranteeing the cycle be repeated.

If there were any evidence that calling out the players would either induce them to straighten up or get management to take action, I'd be all for creating BlameTheBengalsClockPunchingPlayersNotMikeBrown.com tomorrow. But I've yet to see it.

Declaring something stupid doesn't automatically dictate doing the opposite thing will produce better results. So no, I'm not suggesting anyone start a website that attempts to do anything. But I will say this much. As a fanbase I think we're a broken bunch, and by not holding players accountable in all of the normal ways we become a core part of the problem.

[Sea Ray]

Declaring something stupid doesn't automatically dictate doing the opposite thing will produce better results. So no, I'm not suggesting anyone start a website that attempts to do anything. But I will say this much. As a fanbase I think we're a broken bunch, and by not holding players accountable in all of the normal ways we become a core part of the problem.

As a fan there's precious little we can do to hold players accountable. What can we do to hold Carson accountable and what would it change?

[HoosierCat]

But I will say this much. As a fanbase I think we're a broken bunch, and by not holding players accountable in all of the normal ways we become a core part of the problem.

Well, I guess it's no surprise that a dysfunctional team has a dysfunctional fan base. That said, I think you're exaggerating the extent to which the fans absolve the players of responsibility. Players routinely come under fire for poor performance, bad behavior and lack of dedication. However, it never seems to make a difference, presumably because the players don't give a crap what we think, and IMHO that's what really fuels the frustration with management. Unlike us, they could do something -- but they never do.

[HairOnFire]

But I will say this much. As a fanbase I think we're a broken bunch, and by not holding players accountable in all of the normal ways we become a core part of the problem.

Well, I guess it's no surprise that a dysfunctional team has a dysfunctional fan base. That said, I think you're exaggerating the extent to which the fans absolve the players of responsibility.

I wonder if it's even possible to exaggerate how broken this fanbase has become. For proof, take this very messageboard. Or any other Bengal related messageboard you might frequent. Coupled with all of the normal back and forth over issues you'll find all of the things that define how we're broken. And that includes the odd way so many of us find ways to use the very public hatred of Mike Brown to defend the undefendable.

Players routinely come under fire for poor performance, bad behavior and lack of dedication.

Yup. We do all of the normal thing. It's just the abnormal way we do things that defines us a broken fanbase. Or if you prefer, our numbers are out of balance. For just one example, we have far more cranks willing to openly root against everything attempted. And for another example, we defend unprofessional player behavior in greater numbers than fanbases who aren't broken.

However, it never seems to make a difference, presumably because the players don't give a crap what we think, and IMHO that's what really fuels the frustration with management. Unlike us, they could do something -- but they never do.

Perhaps, but the very thing most critics demand the Bengals do first is admit their incompetence and fire themselves. How likely is that?

I'm not defending management. I'm saying the single biggest misconception about this team is that it's players are more dedicated to winning than ownership. With very few exceptions I see nothing but clock punchers. Almost everyone seems perfectly content to keep moving forward as if job one around here was simply being happy with having a highly paid NFL job. And to your last point from above, I believe the players could do something to positively change EVERYONES fortunes -- but they never do. In part, I beleive, because we as fans don't demand more from the players themselves. As a fanbase, too many of us hear excuses about the team wilting from the heat of the spotlight and we accept the insult without hesitation or complaint.

[Sea Ray]

I'm not defending management. I'm saying the single biggest misconception about this team is that its players are more dedicated to winning than ownership. With very few exceptions I see nothing but clock punchers. Almost everyone seems perfectly content to keep moving forward as if job one around here was simply being happy with having a highly paid NFL job. And to your last point from above, I believe the players could do something to positively change EVERYONES fortunes -- but they never do. In part, I beleive, because we as fans don't demand more from the players themselves. As a fanbase, too many of us hear excuses about the team wilting from the heat of the spotlight and we accept the insult without hesitation or complaint.

If we've got a bunch of clock punchers then who's to blame? The fans? The players? Management?

I think overwhelmingly it's got to be management. They brought them in and they coached 'em once they're here. The NE Patriots wouldn't have a bunch of clock punchers. If they get a leopard who can't change his spots like Moss, they're gone.

[HairOnFire]

If we've got a bunch of clock punchers then who's to blame? The fans? The players? Management?

I think overwhelmingly it's got to be management.

Of course you do. Because most Bengal fans can't bring themselves to criticize players WITHOUT making the now mandatory management excuse. So all you've done is provide the proof nobody actually needed to see.

Perhaps it would help if you looked at things this way.

In Cincinnati, if a player drops an easy pass reception we MIGHT blame him for his individual failures. But if that same player willingly goes through the motions for his entire career MOST of us will happily blame someone else.

[HairOnFire]

The NE Patriots wouldn't have a bunch of clock punchers. If they get a leopard who can't change his spots like Moss, they're gone.

You seem to be under the impression that New England didn't know about Moss's reputation before trading for him, before renegotiating his contract, or before they made him a starting WR for three full seasons. And IMHO they didn't let him go because Moss refused to change his spots. They dumped him because his tank was almost dry and the incentive to continue putting up with the very same type of antics they had put up with previously had all but evaporated.

[HoosierCat]

[ I'm saying the single biggest misconception about this team is that it's players are more dedicated to winning than ownership.

Yeah, that belongs on the list.

And to your last point from above, I believe the players could do something to positively change EVERYONES fortunes -- but they never do. In part, I beleive, because we as fans don't demand more from the players themselves.

"In part" I will agree with. We can definitely do a better job of holding the players' feet to the fire. But I also think that our ability to influence the team is minimal compared to its own ability to influence itself. We are the equivalent of the weak nuclear force in this relationship.

[derekshank]

The NE Patriots wouldn't have a bunch of clock punchers. If they get a leopard who can't change his spots like Moss, they're gone.

You seem to be under the impression that New England didn't know about Moss's reputation before trading for him, before renegotiating his contract, or before they made him a starting WR for three full seasons. And IMHO they didn't let him go because Moss refused to change his spots. They dumped him because his tank was almost dry and the incentive to continue putting up with the very same type of antics they had put up with previously had all but evaporated.

Bingo.

The Patriots traded for Moss after he had pulled a Chad in Oakland (Or to be more accurate... Chad pulled a Moss). New England was not ignorant of his problems, but were more than willing to get a quality player with some baggage on the cheap. Something New England gets praised for (see Corey Dillon) but Mike Brown gets destroyed for.

What's the difference? There are probably several... but at least one reason is the no-nonsense atmosphere in the locker room created by the players. An atmosphere that hasn't existed in Cincy for quite some time.

Why? You can probably manufacture a way to make Mike Brown the scapegoat here too... but the truth is that New England has leaders in the locker room. Tom Brady didn't put up with any of Moss's s**t. Palmer not only put up with Chad's s**t, he begged for more when he lobbied for T.O. to be signed.

Palmer shouldn't act as if all the dysfunction had finally become too much. He should instead realize that the dysfunction was created, in large part, by his vagina.

[HoosierCat]

What's the difference? There are probably several... but at least one reason is the no-nonsense atmosphere in the locker room created by the players. An atmosphere that hasn't existed in Cincy for quite some time.

Why? You can probably manufacture a way to make Mike Brown the scapegoat here too... but the truth is that New England has leaders in the locker room.

There's no need to manufacture anything. Just ask yourself the question, how did those leaders get into the New England locker room?

Mike isn't to blame for what happens in the locker room. But he is to blame for who is in the locker room.

If you stock your locker room with leaders, you'll get leadership. If you stock it with clowns and crooks, you get the Bengals. Garbage in, garbage out.

This, IMHO, is why more fan opprobrium at the players won't make much, if any, difference. Until you have guys on the team who might actually be shamed by punching a clock, the accusation doesn't have much force.

[membengal]

(Pops popcorn...nods at Hair and Derek and adds a mental "well said")

[derekshank]

If you stock your locker room with leaders, you'll get leadership. If you stock it with clowns and crooks, you get the Bengals. Garbage in, garbage out.

This is a chicken/egg argument.

But is it Mike Brown's fault that the QB that always said the right things you would expect a leader to say to the media, never accepted the role of leader in the locker room? Or is it Palmer's fault that, even though he played a leadership position, refused to accept the leadership role?

I guess you can draw whatever conclusions you want. But it strikes me as far too easy to blame the guy that always gets blamed for not bringing in leaders... when Palmer was brought in to lead. And he talked a good game too... but when the going got tough, he tucked his dick between his legs. So that's the guy I blame.

[HoosierCat]

If you stock your locker room with leaders, you'll get leadership. If you stock it with clowns and crooks, you get the Bengals. Garbage in, garbage out.

This is a chicken/egg argument.

No, it isn't. If you start with rotten eggs, you never get chickens.

To repeat myself: Until you have guys on the team who might actually be shamed by punching a clock, the accusation doesn't have much force.

[ArmyBengal]

Sure I'm all for whatever it takes to hold players feet to the fire and make them accountable.

I'm just not following how the fans have much, if any, involvement in that process.

We can simply not go to the games, but we all know that's not going to happen.

We can stop buying jerseys and line their pockets further, but that's why I buy from China.

(Oh yeah, that reminds me, that site changed names, but they already have a Dalton and Green jersey up, heck you can still get a Henry jersey there)

I mean, it's not like we have face time with these guys or can pull money out of their paycheck for underperformance.

Call it me needing to know where people are going with that thought. I'd be more than happy to jump on board.

[HoosierCat]

(Pops popcorn...nods at Hair and Derek and adds a mental "well said")

Well, why not stop snacking and dive in? One of derek's comments reminded me that there was something I wanted to ask you as well:

You have repeatedly characterized Carson Palmer's actions as "quitting when the going got tough." I wondered what period of time you thought was not tough? After all, we are talking about a player who had his leg practically torn off just days after signing that big nine-figure deal, requiring a grueling and painful rehab. He nonetheless pulled that off in record time, so he could return in 2006 to a team whose offensive line and defense promptly fell apart. I could go on, but I think we're both familiar with the trials and tribulations of this team over the last several seasons. And I would certainly not characterize any of those years as easy.

I think just the opposite can be argued: that Carson is quitting just as the going appears to be getting easier. The conventional wisdom is that Chad is gone, to be replaced by the more talented, are far more stable, A.J. Green. With the addition of Boling and signs that the Flesh Zeppelin might finally be getting it, the o-line could be better than it has been in a long time. Simpson and Caldwell flashed at the end of last year; Gresham and Shipley had solid rookie outings and should only get better.

Toss in a schedule that, on paper, is far less challenging than any they have faced since 2005, and you have all the makings or a career season for Palmer. Whatever his reasons are for throwing in the towel, I don't think it has anything to do with things being tough, because they're not.

[membengal]

Last year was tough. The toughest of his career. Easily. Rehabbing the ACL was a challenge, but last year was a much different kind of challenge.

He lobbied for a guy. The Bengals followed his advice and went and got his guy. The expectations on him and the team were large for probably the first time in his career. He didn't have injury excuses/realities to shield behind. It was all on him. He was a veteran, in theory the leader, the team did what he wanted with a key acquisition (and probably even in the draft), and then he went out and wilted under the pressure. Puked on himself.

And his reaction to the failure? Was there self-reflection? Ownership of his role in the failure? A re-doubling of his committment to the franchise that had committed to him?

No. NO.

He quit. Faced with a chance to prove his mettle, to be a leader, to make a difference, he quit.

There really is no defense for that.

ETA:

Can't talk longer now because at work, but that's a start for my take on it. Plus, Derek and Hair are on point as it is.

[derekshank]

If you stock your locker room with leaders, you'll get leadership. If you stock it with clowns and crooks, you get the Bengals. Garbage in, garbage out.

This is a chicken/egg argument.

No, it isn't. If you start with rotten eggs, you never get chickens.

To repeat myself: Until you have guys on the team who might actually be shamed by punching a clock, the accusation doesn't have much force.

Well, based on the article that mem posted in the other thread... it looks as though the rotten egg has brought in a lot of players who care about winning. But Palmer continually let assclowns like Chad and T.O. run the locker room.

It's nonsense to blame the owner when a player lacks a backbone. If Mike Brown has a fault in this, it is believing that the QB he drafted #1 overall was man enough to handle the leadership responsibilities expected of the position.