Free Agents

[HoosierCat]

Perhaps you should ask yourself why those players were allowed to reach the end of their contracts when so many other Bengal stars were given contract extensions before reaching FA?

So many other Bengal stars? Since Geathers in January of '07, I think the only Bengals of note they've extended have been Whit and Peko. Most of their negotiations, like those with Justin, Housh and now JJ haven't borne fruit. And that isn't because the bengals wouldn't have liked to have them back, it's because they wouldn't spend the money necessary to keep them.

Which brings us once again to the patented RubOnFire. That being, the fact that second guessers like Hoosier don't even bother claiming the departed players were actually worth what they were demanding.....as if things like that don't actually matter.

Players are worth exactly what they can get. If JJoe can get $13 million a year on the open market, then he's worth $13 million a year. That's what a team has to pay for his services. And that's my point: we keep hearing, year after year, how the Bengals want to keep this guy or that guy, but they "aren't worth it." What they mean is that they aren't willing to pay the going rate. Fine -- but then show me that the team can get equal or greater talent and performance for less. And so far, whether it's LG, DE, S, WR or (probably) CB, they've failed to do so. I would suggest this year that it's time to try something different: pay the man.

[Scottishbengal]

Since then ('07) it's been the long string of goodbyes, starting with Steinbach.

Palmer was made the richest player in the NFL in '05

Chad was given one of the most lucrative WR deals in '06.

Willie Anderson and Levi Jones were also given huge contracts in '06,

Geathers was given his big deal in '07.

Housh is the only name you can cite, and he spurned a $35 million/5 year contract. Not to mention that on his way out made his negative opinions on the Bengals well known. And as for the Housh situation... Mike Brown, the cheap bastard that he is, spent $17 million over 2 years trying to replace Housh with Coles and Bryant. So lets not act like he's unwilling to spend money.

freed up cap space.

probably more along the lines of Son-of-a-Genius's thinking is it is freed-up dollars (period), or perhaps even more appropo, freed up salary FLOOR dollars

agreed, tho

Jeez - MB takes a kicking at every turn. If the Bengals win it's because of the talent or the coaching, if they lose it's because of Mikey.

Anyway - back to the question of the topic - Free Agents. Bengals.com was citing Tarvaris Jackson as a possibility - I'd certainly go for that although I can't see Dalton being a long term back-up and Jackson may want a long term starters role, so I doubt this will happen. Nice idea though.

[BengalPimp]

Hey Pimp, just curious your thoughts to life without Benson and who you would like to see get it done.

Well, for starters, I am not in the John Clay camp. Sorry, but when a RB's BEST 40-Time at the combine is 4.83, I say NO THANK YOU. To put that time in perspective, half the D-Linemen in the league could catch him, let alone EVERY LB in the league. I see him as another Wisconsin RB who ran behind a bunch of 300+++lb linemen in college (Wisconsin likes their boys big) who's power won't make up for his lack of speed (Hello Ron Dayne). Honestly, his Horrible 40 Time was the main reason he didnt get drafted.

Obviously, DeAngelo Williams would be my #1 choice, and Ronnie "Muthaf**kin" Brown would Definitely be #2 (Both Ricky and Ronnie are FA's & The Doplhins will probably only re-sign 1 of them since they drafted Daniel Thomas)

If the Bengals want someone else to share carries, there are FA RB's to be had who can give them a year or 2 until they know for sure whether Scott can carry the load himself or to find a RB in next year's draft.

A perfect example is a guy like Derrick Ward. Arian Foster took away any shot at playing time from him with a 200yd+ performance in week 1 last year. He is a Free Agent, and can be had cheap. Because of last year, and being juggled in Tampa in '09 people forget the talent this guy has. He would be a great fit for this team because he's....1) a bruiser at 5'11 228lbs.... 2) a guy who ran for over 1,000 yds at 5.6ypc a couple of years ago.....3) a guy who also caught 41 passes that same year for an average of 9.4 and had 14 RECEIVING FIRST DOWNS (great for the West Coast).....It's just up to the Stupid Bengals Front Office to do their homework. I feel a guy like Ward is a MUCH better fit for the WCO than Benson, and will be much cheaper(money that could be used elsewhere)........... As a matter of fact, I really like the idea of a Scott/Ward/Leonard trio.

My top 3 goes like this:

1) DeAngelo

2) Ronnie Brown

3) DERRICK WARD.....RECOGNIZE

[ArmyBengal]

Thanks Pimp, that's exactly what I was looking for in the responses.

I'll have to go back and look at Ward, as well as some others that are out there.

[TJJackson]

Jeez - MB takes a kicking at every turn.

and this will continue even after the all-day party the day it is announced that he has passed on

If the Bengals win it's because of the talent or the coaching, if they lose it's because of Mikey.

no....when they win, it is in spite of the barriers to success created and maintained by Mike Brown. They succeed DESPITE SoaG

[HairOnFire]

Perhaps you should ask yourself why those players were allowed to reach the end of their contracts when so many other Bengal stars were given contract extensions before reaching FA?

So many other Bengal stars? Since Geathers in January of '07, I think the only Bengals of note they've extended have been Whit and Peko. Most of their negotiations, like those with Justin, Housh and now JJ haven't borne fruit. And that isn't because the bengals wouldn't have liked to have them back, it's because they wouldn't spend the money necessary to keep them.

That's ridiculous. The contract extensions of Geathers, Whitworth, and Peko all have at least two things in common. At the time they were extended they were both young and underpaid. Thus, both sides had an incentive to get a deal done. By comparison, the two players who left were....(wait for it)...allowed to leave after the Bengals refused to increase their final offer. So yes, they were wanted back, but only to a point.

Furthermore, you keep ignoring how the Bengals have indeed managed to upgrade most, if not all, of the positions played by every star player lost to FA. Whitworth stepped off the bus better than Steinbach, Dunlap managed to outproduce Justin Smith despite playing only half a season, and Housh will probably begin next season with his 3rd team since leaving the Bengals, a team he probably couldn't earn a roster spot with any longer. Which brings us neatly to another aging FA that you still shed tears for. Yet Willie Anderson played a support role for another team for one year, found himself being replaced again, and now doesn't play for anybody.

Quite frankly, you don't seem concerned by how often departed FA's have gone on to prove they weren't worth the money they got in FA. Housh busted for the Seahawks. Williams busted for the Vikings. The Ravens were gently shoving Willie Anderson towards the door after just one season of part-time duty. Steinbach has never been more than just a guy for the Browns. Of course Justin Smith is a Pro Bowl player for the 49'ers now, so that sorta sucks. But on the other hand, Carlos Dunlap is already a better player than Smith.

Players are worth exactly what they can get. If JJoe can get $13 million a year on the open market, then he's worth $13 million a year.

Are you suggesting that teams don't knowingly overpay sometimes OR that JJoe is worth the exact amount of money to every team.....including those who don't need CB's at all? The reason I ask is simple enough. Because if you aren't claiming Joseph's worth is the same for every team then you're acknowledging his value differs from team to team based upon their individual needs and willingness to pay.

What they mean is that they aren't willing to pay the going rate. Fine -- but then show me that the team can get equal or greater talent and performance for less. And so far, whether it's LG, DE, S, WR or (probably) CB, they've failed to do so.

FWIW, here's how I score your argument. Wrong, wrong again, they haven't even tried, wrong once more, and finally....incomplete.

F+

[BengalPimp]

Thanks Pimp, that's exactly what I was looking for in the responses.

I'll have to go back and look at Ward, as well as some others that are out there.

You got it buddy.

I figure those 3 are attainable (yes, even Williams) and all good fits. I didn't include some others like Ahmad Bradshaw, Arian Foster, Michael Bush, Pierre Thomas, because all those guys will most likely re-sign with their current teams (maybe not Pierre Thomas, but he's more fragile than Chris Perry)

I might even consider Le'Ron McClain just to screw the Ravens....maybe....

[ArmyBengal]

Ward certainly appears to be out of Houston with Foster (you know he's coming back), Slaton, and Ben Tate who they drafted in the 2nd round last year coming back from injury. Should be interesting to see how it all works out with Benson and some of the RB's that cold be available.

[derekshank]

A couple things on Derrick Ward.

First of all, he's only had one good season (with the Giants in '08) Since then, he has struggled to get playing time in TB and Houston. He's had barely over 700 yards and only 5 TDs in the last two seasons combined.

Secondly, even in that good season in '08, he averaged 11 carries a game as part of a 3RB committee with Brandon Jacobs and Ahmad Bradshaw. He's never shown an ability to be a #1 RB.

Lastly, he's not the "bruiser" as Pimp claimed he was. He was the "wind" in the Earth, Wind, and Fire, combo with the Giants. He's known as a shifty RB, and is a part time RB... but Cincy already has a guy like that in Scott.

He wouldn't be a good replacement for Benson as a north/south style runner. Gruden said he wants to run between the tackles. If the Bengals don't bring Benson back, they'll need to find someone who can handle 20+ carries/game as a power running back.

[BengalPimp]

A couple things on Derrick Ward.

First of all, he's only had one good season (with the Giants in '08) Since then, he has struggled to get playing time in TB and Houston. He's had barely over 700 yards and only 5 TDs in the last two seasons combined.

Secondly, even in that good season in '08, he averaged 11 carries a game as part of a 3RB committee with Brandon Jacobs and Ahmad Bradshaw. He's never shown an ability to be a #1 RB.

Lastly, he's not the "bruiser" as Pimp claimed he was. He was the "wind" in the Earth, Wind, and Fire, combo with the Giants. He's known as a shifty RB, and is a part time RB... but Cincy already has a guy like that in Scott.

He wouldn't be a good replacement for Benson as a north/south style runner. Gruden said he wants to run between the tackles. If the Bengals don't bring Benson back, they'll need to find someone who can handle 20+ carries/game as a power running back.

The "700" yards was due to a lack of opportunity, not production, as he's only had 164 carries the past 2 seasons and a 4.26 avg (so he doesn't have a lot of wear and tear)

Look, Derrick Ward can Definitelty run between the Tackles, he's shown that. His nickname was just so they could come up with a clever nickname for the Trio. If you've watched him play, you'll see that they guy runs with power, AND elusiveness. I like what he has to offer. As for being a 20+ carry a game guy? I DON'T WANT THAT, because that would mean Bernard Scott and his 4.6 ypc career avg will be getting ZERO touches like he did with Benson. Ideally, i would like to see one RB get like 15 carries and the other 10 or so. Derrick ward would fit in perfectly with that idea. I PERSONALLY am very high on Bernard Scott (and Brian Leonard) and DON'T want to see them on the bench in favor of a guy like Benson. Even if by some miracle the Bengals signed DeAngelo Williams, EVEN HE would not be a 20+ carry guy every game. He would be best rotated like he was with Stewart in Carolina.

Maybe you don't like that he spells his name Derrick instead of Derek like you"shank" I don't know......But here are a few pics of him with power and more than just "wind"

Sure looks like a guy with Power and someone who can run between the Tackles bringing his 228lbs like a man.....to me at least......

[BengalPimp]

I'll throw in a few more:

Hello, Marvin White, my name is Derrick Ward, nice to meet you !!!

Terrell Suggs knows how to spell 'Ward" after this first hand look.

Bradie James, nice to meet you too.

Leapfrog anyone?

I like this game

POWER, not just "Wind"......Sure looks like he doesn't go down easy.

[Stripes]

Gotta say... random photographs don't mean anything.

[derekshank]

Gotta say... random photographs don't mean anything.

Exactly. I've watched him play. He has the same style as Bernard Scott.

90% of his production came when he went untouched for 40+ yards.

I'm not saying he's worthless, but the Bengals already have a player like that.

[BengalPimp]

Gotta say... random photographs don't mean anything.

Exactly. I've watched him play. He has the same style as Bernard Scott.

90% of his production came when he went untouched for 40+ yards.

I'm not saying he's worthless, but the Bengals already have a player like that.

I've watched him play as well, and photographs may not tell the whole story, but you questioned whether he can run between the tackles, and a few of those photos show him doing exactly that.

He is NOT like Bernard Scott in that he runs with more Power, and is a bigger back (an inch taller and 30 lbs heavier than Scott). He IS NOT a scatback type like Scott, and I think the 2 would compliment each other well with each 10-15 carries a game.

You mentioned it yourself about him going untouched for 40+ yards. When have you EVER seen Benson do that? NEVER.

There aren't a whole lot of better options available, and if you have one, Please share......If your better option is Benson and his 3.4 yards per carry, You really have no arguement.

Remember, my Top 2 are DeAngelo Williams, and Ronnie Brown, but let's be realistic here, Mike Brown will not pay those guys (or outbid another team). Ward is a guy who is very "gettable" for the Bengals and someone who can help them.

[derekshank]

There aren't a whole lot of better options available, and if you have one, Please share......If your better option is Benson and his 3.4 yards per carry, You really have no argument.

Your bulls**t ypc argument is so full of holes it's barely worth responding to... and I haven't bothered to do so, until now.

Benson ran for 169 yards on 21 carries against the #1 rush defense in the NFL against the Jets in the playoff game in '09. And Cincy had no passing game to speak of, and the jets kept 8 in the box most of the game. Your insinuation that he's garbage is baseless.

Last year, the problem with the run game was the philosophy, not the personnel. I went through and took notes on every offensive play against Baltimore in week 2. The Bengals ran 50 plays out of a passing formation, and only 19 out of a run formation.

When they ran out of the passing formation, defenders were in the backfield immediately because there wasn't any blocking help with Shipley and Gresham lined up as WRs. The few times they did run the ball out of a run formation, they relied on Gresham, a player whose run blocking skills left penty to be desired... when the defense knew Benson was getting the ball.

Brat's philosophy hung Benson out to dry last year... and I was vocal about it forthe entire season. Ward would not have fared any better. And shifty RBs who come in and run for 7 yards on a 3rd and 10 might have a nice ypc average... but it doesn't add up to s**t at the end of the day.

Benson has proven to be a sturdy and reliable power RB. And if you want to succeed in the AFCN, you damn well better have a RB who can run over some people. Ward doesn't fit the description. Sorry.

[Walrus]

There's another Williams who might be a sneaky good fit here -- Ricky. If the Dolphins let him go I wouldn't mind briging him in if Benson opts to move on.

[ct_bengal]

wasn't ward the one who showed up fat and out of shape for the bucs the year they signed him...

[derekshank]

wasn't ward the one who showed up fat and out of shape for the bucs the year they signed him...

Yep. He was one of two Giants RBs who rushed for over 1,000 yards in '08 (Since then, Ahmad Bradshaw has shown that running behind the Giants O-Line is not the worst gig in the NFL).

Ward signed a 4 year deal with Tampa. They expected him to be their starter, but he was unable to win the starting job over Cadillac Williams (who was playing with 2 bad knees). Ward publicly complained about the O-Line... (I guess the Giants spoiled him), and (Pimp should love this stat) managed only 3.6 yards/carry.

TB cut him last year because of "conditioning" issues. They were clearly still RB needy though, because they signed Blount off the waiver wire 6 days later. Ward found a home in Houston because Tate was out for the year, and the two other back-up RBs were nursing injuries.

Replacing Benson with Ward would be stupid... because Ward has proven that he is not an NFL starting RB.

[derekshank]

There's another Williams who might be a sneaky good fit here -- Ricky. If the Dolphins let him go I wouldn't mind briging him in if Benson opts to move on.

From what I've read, the Dolphins plan to keep Ricky, and let Ronnie Brown walk.

There are actually a number of decent FA RBs out there... and the NFL is not full of RB needy teams, so I expect the Bengals to have no problem retaining Benson's services on the cheap.

[BengalPimp]

There aren't a whole lot of better options available, and if you have one, Please share......If your better option is Benson and his 3.4 yards per carry, You really have no argument.

Your bulls**t ypc argument is so full of holes it's barely worth responding to... and I haven't bothered to do so, until now.

Benson ran for 169 yards on 21 carries against the #1 rush defense in the NFL against the Jets in the playoff game in '09. And Cincy had no passing game to speak of, and the jets kept 8 in the box most of the game. Your insinuation that he's garbage is baseless.

Yup, my argument is bulls**t. Thats why you counter with stats from 2 years ago.

Nevermind the fact that Benson is unable to break sh*t. He carried the ball 321 Times last year, but yet had ONLY 2 runs of 20 + yards, and a long of 26 yards. His 2 runs of 20+ yards were the FEWEST among the Top 25 Rushers in the league......So, he's good for 20 yards every 160 carries or so, wonderful.......Numbers may not tell the whole truth, but they certainly don't lie and that Stat just shows that he CANNOT do anything by himself. Unless he has 5 ProBowlers in front of him blocking 10 yards upfield, he cant get to/past the 2nd Level.

The Bengals Offensive line wasn't the best, but it definitely wasn't the worst, yet RB's with worse O-Lines seemed to put up better numbers than Benson,,,,,Why? Also, they are returning almost the exact O-Line so why would things be any different? Play Calling? Nah, If it's a called Run, the O-Line knows they are run blocking, regardless of formation.

Disagree if you like, but don't tell me the numbers are bulls**t.

[derekshank]

Yup, my arguement is bulls**t. Thats why you counter with stats from 2 years ago.

Yup. Your argument is bulls**t, and that's why you didn't even bother to mention the latter 3/4 of my post. Because you know you can't refute it. You have your little geeky fantasy nerd stats... but don't bother to consider why those numbers would change so drastically in the matter a few months.

And here's a stat for you. 2009 was more recent than 2008. The last time that Derrick Ward looked like he was an NFL RB.

Nevermind the fact that Benson is unable to break sh*t. He carried the ball 321 Times last year, but yet had ONLY 2 runs of 20 + yards, and a long of 26 yards. His 2 runs of 20+ yards were the FEWEST among the Top 25 Rushers in the league......So, he's good for 20 yards every 160 carries or so, wonderful.......Numbers may not tell the whole truth, but they certainly don't lie and that Stat just shows that he CANNOT do anything by himself. Unless he has 5 ProBowlers in front of him blocking 10 yards upfield, he cant get to/past the 2nd Level.

Again... bulls**t. Benson did more with less blocking last year than most RBs in the NFL. As an example... Bernard Scott had 61 carries, and managed 0 yards of 20+. Is that because he's unable? No... it's because the Bengals chose to be a pass happy team and abandoned the philosophy that got them to the playoffs a year earlier.

Benson had 10 rushes of 20+ in '09 with the same O-Line... but a different philosophy. Why don't you look at a meaningful stat... like number of 1st downs he rushed for. He was 10th in 2010, and 2nd in 2009. That means that he was keeping his offense on the field better than the majority of the other RBs in the NFL.

But it's hard to notice stats that matter when you're busy fantasizing about the ypc of a RB that has never been a starter.

The Bengals Offensive line wasn't the best, but it definitely wasn't the worst, yet RB's with worse O-Lines seemed to put up better numbers than Benson,,,,,Why? Also, they are returning almost the exact O-Line so why would things be any different? Play Calling? Nah, If it's a called Run, the O-Line knows they are run blocking, regardless of formation.

You are giving yourself away as someone who doesn't know football. Yes... it was the same O-Line, but it wasn't the same scheme. The Bengals ran the ball well in '09 because they weren't running the ball out of 3WR and 4WR sets 70+% of the time like they did in 2010. Seriously... I'm not exaggerating.

Brat abandoned the running game in 2010... and Benson still managed to get 1st downs. And by what standards are you measuring the O-Line? You say other RB's with worse O-Lines... give some examples - and use some facts to back it up. This would be a good place to start... and you'll see that the Bengals O-Line ranked pretty damn low across the board.

Disagree if you like, but don't tell me the numbers are bulls**t.

Numbers aren't in and of themselves bulls**t. But when you treat them like they are the only information available... it's definitely bulls**t. There were a lot of factors that played into the meltdown of 2010... but Benson wasn't a big part of the problem.

[BengalPimp]

Oh damn, I'm convinced.......Forget a RB, we have Cedric Benson, and babyshanks says he's awesome, so I gotta go with that. 7 fumbles awesome....But that was probably Brat's fault too. And yeah, Yards per carry don't mean anything, only that his career average is 3.7.....wait that must be Brat's fault too, even when he was in Chicago....Or wait, maybe Shipley and Gresham had a hand in that too? Apparently everybody BUT Benson.

Look, forget about the Fumbles, the poor YPC avg, the lack of big plays, the lacks of receiving skills needed for a West Coast back.....Forget all that, as those don't mean anything because apparently that's all Brat's fault.

Benson is not good for a Rookie QB. He'll set him up for 3rd and longs with his short carries, and then complain that he doesn't get enough carries even though with another 13 carries, he would have been the league leader in attempts. Benson is a Diva, as much as Chad and T.O are, so too is Benson. Benson is also keeping Bernard Scott on the bench because of his constant b*tching about not getting enough carries. Seriously, I would not mind giving him 1,000 carries if he produced.......But last year, he just didn't.....thats it.

[derekshank]

Oh damn, I'n convinced.......Forget a RB, we have Cedric Benson, and babyshanks says he's awesome, so I gotta go with that. 7 fumbles awesome....But that was probably Brat's fault too. And yeah, Yards per carry don't mean anything, only that his career average is 3.7.....wait that must be Brat's fault too, even when he was in Chicago....Or wait, maybe Shipley and Gresham had a hand in that too? Apparently everybody BUT Benson.

Look, forget about the Fumbles, the poor YPC avg, the lack of big plays, the lacks of receiving skills needed for a West Coast back.....Forget all that, as those don't mean anything because apparently that's all Brat's fault.

Benson is not good for a Rookie QB. He'll set him up for 3rd and longs with his short carries, and then complain that he doesn't get enough carries even though with another 13 carries, he would have been the league leader in attempts. Benson is a Diva, as much as Chad and T.O are, so too is Benson. Benson is also keeping Bernard Scott on the bench because of his constant b*tching about not getting enough carries. Seriously, I would not mind giving him 1,000 carries if he produced.......But last year, he just didn't.....thats it.

I view this post as a concession. You didn't do anything to refute the data that I presented. You just kept quoting your same tired old stats that you've posted a dozen times before.

You have no new evidence to bring to the table... and when I present data that the O-Line was ranked in the bottom 26th in run blocking and that Brat chose to abandon the successful scheme of '09... you respond with the same meaningless stats you've been posting from the get go.

I've never claimed Benson is without flaw, but he is better than the vast majority of FAs available. You seem to believe that all the problems with the running game can be traced to one player... and that is idiotic and makes you seem simple minded.

[BengalPimp]

I've never claimed Benson is without flaw,

You never claimed Benson was without flaw? Hell, you Blamed EVERYBODY else but Benson. You blamed Bratkowski, The Offensive Line, Shipley, and Gresham.

[BengalPimp]

You seem to believe that all the problems with the running game can be traced to one player... and that is idiotic and makes you seem simple minded.

You seem to believe that "all the problems with the running game" are the fault of everybody BUT the RB,....You have like a dozen posts in this thread alone and NEVER Once have you criticized the play of Benson. You have blamed the coaches, schemes, Offensive linemen, WR's blocking, TE blocking, basically everybody except Benson.

How idiotic is that???