Free Agents

[ArmyBengal]

I know the lockout it keeping some of this from happening, but where do you stand with this ??

I think the two key free agents are JJoe and Benson.

The thought I hear a lot is since we didn't address the RB position in the draft, we really have no option but to keep Benson (I know Pimp is in that camp). While I would love to see a guy like Deangelo Williams come in, I just don't think there's a chance it will happen. I think Benson stays due to the lack of other options and RB is drafted high next year. There really aren't many options left in the UDFA ranks either. The kid from Auburn is a big back, Fannin I think and Clay from Wisconsin didn't get drafted either.

I think JJoe leaves when he gets the chance. I know he has said he wants to stay, but we all know there is another side to what is said and what players mean. I just don't think the Bengals would be willing to pay him what some other team SURELY will be willing to. I don't think the Bengals should pay him top dollar, but I think they would be better served to think about what they are willing to pay and then give it a bump. Adam Jones is next in line to start I think and he's still coming back from his injury last season. Ghee is there, but I think he would be a huge downgrade at the spot opposite Hall. With all of the WR talent that was just drafted into the AFC North, the Bengals would be well served to make all attempts to keep JJoe. I just don't think it will happen. Free agents in that spot are pretty pricey and if they are willing to pay someone else, they may as well keep JJoe.

There are some other free agents, but I think they are better prepared to lose some of those guys then they are Benson or JJoe.

[Stripes]

I think Joseph is the most important among current players potentially departing. I'd love to have Benson back too, but I wouldn't be terribly bothered to lose him. I expect struggles from the running game regardless of who starts, and I'm not sure Scott would struggle notably more than Benson. I agree that DeAngelo Williams is a pipe dream and I won't waste any thoughts on that notion.

Gimme a veteran QB too, preferably a long tenured backup and not a former starter who fell from grace.

[volcom69]

This team needs a running back, if they want to get back to running the ball. I think Benson would be great if he and the o-line get back to the 09 ways. So i dont mind if they get Benson back, if not then who because they need a big back.

I feel they need JJoe, with the WR that the other teams drafted i think JJoe needs to stay. However i dont like how he is always injured though, so not sure what the price tag will be for him

[redsbengalsbucks]

I'd like them to keep JJoe and either Benson or Leonard. Scott will be fine as a #1 back in a WCO, but they need a short yardage option to pin to him, Leonard fits that bill. Leonard also makes a great recieving threat out of the backfield in a WCO(remember Larry Centers).

So, give me JJoe and Leonard and I'm happy.

[ArmyBengal]

I could deal with Leonard should Benson leave when considering the type of offense Gruden wants to run.

Scott and Leonard as the 1,2 or 2,1, call it what you will is doable. There just don't seem to be many options outside of what we have.

I don't like JJoe's injury concerns either, but they haven't done themselves many favors in that department either. Adam "Don't call me Pacman" Jones would certainly be an option to replace him, but he's coming off surgery. Ghee is still an unknown as well, but could challenge for some time. This is a position I don't see them addressing in FA due to the price tag.

[HoosierCat]

Can we back up here for a second? I don't know about anyone else, but I am sick and tired of the "he's not worth it" excuse from the Bengals. The FO has been trotting it out year after year to justify not signing their own top-tier FAs. Eric Steinbach, Justin Smith, JJ, arguably even TJ, who they hemmed and hawed on so long that he got terminally pissed and walked. And I'm going to bet that Leon Hall isn't going to be any cheaper than JJ come next year, so you can pre-punch his ticket too.

Now, this wouldn't be as big a deal IF the Bengals ever replaced the guys they let go with equivalent talent -- but they don't. In fact, it's exactly these spots where they let guys who "weren't worth it" go that are problems. They used a second round pick to draft Whit for LG, but once Levi broke down they had to move him to tackle and now we have Nate friggin' Livings. Justin may not have been a sack machine but was a fantastically durable and steady DE who was replaced by Antwan Odom, who's been basically junk. Since TJ left they're burned through Coles, Bryant and TO. Now JJ "isn't worth the money" and we're going to replace him with Pacman, who hasn't been started more than 6 games since 2006 or even played in more than 9 games in three years. And if I'm right about Leon, we can look forward to him and Ghee being our starting corners in 2012, unless of course we burn our third first round pick in six drafts on a corner next April.

Just for once, can we pay the guy we have and not settle for an inferior talent because "he's not worth it?" After all, who the frack are they paying right now? If Palmer's gone, then there are precisely ZERO elite-paycheck guys on the roster. And many of the guys making decent coin are junk at this point: Odom, Geathers, Chad, Smith. Probably the only guys we have that are making any significant (in NFL terms, anyway) money and that we need to keep are Whitworth and Peko. So if they aren't going to spend the money on JJ, then what are they going to do with it?

Just pay the man. Benson, too.

[redsbengalsbucks]

Can we back up here for a second? I don't know about anyone else, but I am sick and tired of the "he's not worth it" excuse from the Bengals. The FO has been trotting it out year after year to justify not signing their own top-tier FAs. Eric Steinbach, Justin Smith, JJ, arguably even TJ, who they hemmed and hawed on so long that he got terminally pissed and walked. And I'm going to bet that Leon Hall isn't going to be any cheaper than JJ come next year, so you can pre-punch his ticket too.

Now, this wouldn't be as big a deal IF the Bengals ever replaced the guys they let go with equivalent talent -- but they don't. In fact, it's exactly these spots where they let guys who "weren't worth it" go that are problems. They used a second round pick to draft Whit for LG, but once Levi broke down they had to move him to tackle and now we have Nate friggin' Livings. Justin may not have been a sack machine but was a fantastically durable and steady DE who was replaced by Antwan Odom, who's been basically junk. Since TJ left they're burned through Coles, Bryant and TO. Now JJ "isn't worth the money" and we're going to replace him with Pacman, who hasn't been started more than 6 games since 2006 or even played in more than 9 games in three years. And if I'm right about Leon, we can look forward to him and Ghee being our starting corners in 2012, unless of course we burn our third first round pick in six drafts on a corner next April.

Just for once, can we pay the guy we have and not settle for an inferior talent because "he's not worth it?" After all, who the frack are they paying right now? If Palmer's gone, then there are precisely ZERO elite-paycheck guys on the roster. And many of the guys making decent coin are junk at this point: Odom, Geathers, Chad, Smith. Probably the only guys we have that are making any significant (in NFL terms, anyway) money and that we need to keep are Whitworth and Peko. So if they aren't going to spend the money on JJ, then what are they going to do with it?

Just pay the man. Benson, too.

I think your looking back with some rose colored glasses on, just a little.

TJ has proven he was not worth what he was asking, he needed to be let go. Stienbach is barely keeping his job in Cleveland. Smith should have been kept, but he wanted to much money for his production in the pre-Zimmer D.

I'd like it if they kept JJoe, he is an above average CB. With Hall on the other side they make a great tandem. I'd rather they extend Hall now, and than try to convince JJoe that this is his best option.

The players that they have signed to long term deals are the major part of the problem. Chad and Carson both signed extensions and have not lived up to the deals they got.

[ArmyBengal]

I just find it annoying that in '09 we had one of the best CB tandems in the league, but now that JJoe is a free agent, he has issues.

Sure he has had injuries, but they aren't going to get him on the cheap because of this. Some team is going to pay JJoe near top level money and we can either come in close to that or be prepared to move on and take the downgrade. Thing is, I feel they will simply move on and I fear that will be the death of this defense. Top CB tandems aren't cheap, but unless you are willing to shell out to have at least one top end safety to make up the loss, you are pissing up a rope.

The Ravens and Steelers come to mind. Not top end CB's, but safeties that are game changers. Add a top end CB like the Ravens did with Jimmy Smith and their secondary is going to be good. We haven't bothered to even consider the safety position as being even a little important. Second hand handmedowns.

[HoosierCat]

The Ravens and Steelers come to mind. Not top end CB's, but safeties that are game changers. Add a top end CB like the Ravens did with Jimmy Smith and their secondary is going to be good. We haven't bothered to even consider the safety position as being even a little important. Second hand handmedowns.

Yup, and you reminded me I forgot to add Madieu to my list. Another guy they deemed "not worth the money," and another hole that's never been filled.

RBB, the point isn't that any of these guys were Pro Bowlers. But they were quality players of the type who don't come on the market all the time and are going to command top dollar. In other words, what they are worth is...what they can get. If the Bengals aren't going to pony up, then we will continue to see what we've seen: cheaper options that result in downgrades at the positions.

[derekshank]

Sounds like selective memory to me.

If there is a problem, it's not cheapness... but chosing to pay the wrong players.

MB made Palmer the highest paid player in the NFL. He gave Willie and Levi large contracts instead of extending Steinbach. He gave Geathers a handsome deal and allowed J. Smith to walk. He had big money invested in Chad and chose against doing the same for Housh.

While most of those choices ended poorly, there were plenty who believed them to be the right choices at the time. Steiny had a terrible contract year on the field, while Wille and Levi played the two most important positions on the O-Line (and were playing quite well at the time). Geathers appeared to have all the potential in the world. And Housh was never worthy of the kind of money Chad was getting.

All that said... when it comes to Joseph, Hall, and Benson... I agree. Pay the men. With Palmer's salary coming off the books, there should be plenty of cash to spare... and very little reason to make some of the tough choices they were forced to make in the past.

[HoosierCat]

Sounds like selective memory to me.

Not at all. I well remember all the deals you mention. But I think that only adds weight to my point: the last of them -- Geathers -- was done in January of 2007. Since then, it's been the long string of goodbyes, starting with Steinbach, even as all those previous bad decisions came off the books. Levi and Willie are long gone, Palmer is apparently gone, Chad everyone can't wait 'til he's gone...yet here we are again with "JJ ain't worth it."

Think about it. Every top FA the Bengals have had since '07 whose contract has run out has been allowed to walk. "Not worth it," we're told. When does it end? If not with JJ, why do I believe it ends with Hall next year? When do the Bengals invest in the talent they've worked to develop? Right now we're just a farm team for the rest of the league.

[ArmyBengal]

Well, if I read it correctly, Madieu will not be back with the Vikings. I don't want him though.

Anyway, the safety position kills us. A bunch of late rounders, past their prime free agents, and other team malcontent castoffs. You just can't look at this roster of safeties and think to yourself, "Game Changers". They are the weak point of this defense and have been since forever. I really hope they get this together. If they had a safety worth a sh*t, losing a guy like JJoe would be far more tolerable. That being said, PAY JJoe.

[BengalPimp]

, we really have no option but to keep Benson (I know Pimp is NOT in that camp).

HaHaHa Fixed it for ya

[BengalPimp]

and we're going to replace him with Pacman, who hasn't been started more than 6 games since 2006 or even played in more than 9 games in three years. And if I'm right about Leon, we can look forward to him and Ghee being our starting corners in 2012,

I'm sorry, but has everyone forgotten about Morgan Trent? I like this kid, and although he has made some mistakes, he has shown the ability to start (in place of injured JJoe) and do a good job. I'd be fine with Leon Hall and Morgan Trent starting while we see well Adam Jones has recovered. I'd much rather re-sign Hall than Joseph.

Let's face it guys, The Raiders F*cked the Bengals when they gave CB Stanford Routt (WHO?) a 3 year $31.5 Million Contract in Feb (before the lockout).......You HONESTLY think JJoe won't command more that Stanford Routt?

[BengalPimp]

.

With Palmer's salary coming off the books, there should be plenty of cash to spare...

Ah, but here's the problem. Carson's Salary ISN'T coming off the books. If there is a Salary Cap in 2011, Carson Palmer's Base Salary will still count against that Cap UNLESS they trade him. If Mike Brown holds his ground and decides not to trade Palmer, they are still on the hook (cap wise) They can fine him and withhold his Salary for not reporting, but it would still count against the Salary Cap (If there is one).

In order for Carson's Salary to "come off the books" he would either have to be traded, or file his retirement papers with the league.

[BengalPimp]

Top CB tandems aren't cheap, but unless you are willing to shell out to have at least one top end safety to make up the loss, you are pissing up a rope.

Agreed, A quality Safety would help offset the Loss......Not to mention Safeties are generally a lot chaeper than CB's

[ArmyBengal]

To bad we haven't really bothered to address the safety position. I know they tried to move up and get Mays (so they say), but there hasn't been much else. They really need to get younger and better at the safety spot. Without looking, are there any safety free agents out there worth looking at ??

Hey Pimp, just curious your thoughts to life without Benson and who you would like to see get it done.

I also wish I could share your enthusiasm about Trent. Maybe I need to go back and look.

[Trevor]

To bad we haven't really bothered to address the safety position. I know they tried to move up and get Mays (so they say), but there hasn't been much else. They really need to get younger and better at the safety spot. Without looking, are there any safety free agents out there worth looking at ??

Hey Pimp, just curious your thoughts to life without Benson and who you would like to see get it done.

I also wish I could share your enthusiasm about Trent. Maybe I need to go back and look.

Not really,.. nobody under 27 that has stood out, Honestly I like what we have In Reggie nelson and Sands, while crocker can back up both spots and have Miles and white boi out there for ST. Look for Reggie Nelson to be a gamechanger for us next year, A poor mans Polamalu IMO. Maybe very poor, but still!

[TJJackson]

Among the UDCFAs out there, when/if the teams are allowed to actually start signing them, my hope is that they will address the two spots I consider to be the remaining biggest needs first and foremost - a K and a power running back

I dont know much about the kickers, so I have no names to share - but gimme John Clay and his 5.4 yard average and 41 touchdowns from Wisconsin for the power running back need. He's timed slow, you say? Already know that. He went undrafted. We're talking UDCFAs here, not first round picks :-). There isn't a lot left, and of what is left, gimme the guy who produced.

[agreen_112]

JJoe would be ideal. Honestly, if this is complete rebuild mode - we don't need either. We need two WELL safeties and a strong D-Line and LB's before corners. The Bengals get s**t backwards. We could have the best corner in the league on this defensive unit and he still wouldn't make the pro bowl.

Benson isn't that great, he's replaceable. RB is a plug-and-play position once you get past the top 3 or 4 RB's. Let him go and build the O-Line back up.

[derekshank]

Since then ('07) it's been the long string of goodbyes, starting with Steinbach.

I still think your memory might be a bit hazy. Where is this long list of talent that left Cincy?

Palmer was made the richest player in the NFL in '05 and Chad was given one of the most lucrative WR deals in '06. Willie Anderson and Levi Jones were also given huge contracts in '06, and Geathers was given his big deal in '07. All of these fat contracts were what forced the Bengals to make make tough decisions with Steiny (left after the '06 season) and Justin Smith (left after the '07 season).

Willie and Levi are gone now, so any mass exodus of Bengal talent beginning in '08 would be a big problem... but no such problem exists. Housh is the only name you can cite, and he spurned a $35 million/5 year contract. Not to mention that on his way out made his negative opinions on the Bengals well known.

A couple months ago, you complained that Mike Brown "clings" to malcontented players like a Katrina looter to a flatscreen... but now you are complaining that the Bengals were unable to do so with Housh. So, which is it? You can't have both sides of the argument to choose from whenever it suits you.

And as for the Housh situation... Mike Brown, the cheap bastard that he is, spent $17 million over 2 years trying to replace Housh with Coles and Bryant. So lets not act like he's unwilling to spend money. If anything... the complaint should be that he flushes far too much of it down the toilet.

In other words... I fully expect Joseph to remain a Bengal, because I don't invent problems in my own mind that force me to be pessimistic toward the idea.

[derekshank]

In order for Carson's Salary to "come off the books" he would either have to be traded, or file his retirement papers with the league.

Yeah... And?

Honestly, has there been one single rumor out there that Palmer will holdout for the season? There are only two options being discussed. One is a trade, and the other is retirement. Both resulting in freed up cap space.

Can you provide me with a good reason to believe that Palmer intends to remain as a Bengal, but not actually play for them?

[TJJackson]

freed up cap space.

probably more along the lines of Son-of-a-Genius's thinking is it is freed-up dollars (period), or perhaps even more appropo, freed up salary FLOOR dollars

agreed, tho

[ArmyBengal]

John Clay and his 5.4 yard average and 41 touchdowns from Wisconsin for the power running back need. He's timed slow, you say? Already know that. He went undrafted. We're talking UDCFAs here, not first round picks :-). There isn't a lot left, and of what is left, gimme the guy who produced.

I would have no issue with Clay being brought in. I have brought his name up as well.

JJoe would be ideal. Honestly, if this is complete rebuild mode - we don't need either. We need two WELL safeties and a strong D-Line and LB's before corners. The Bengals get s**t backwards. We could have the best corner in the league on this defensive unit and he still wouldn't make the pro bowl.

Benson isn't that great, he's replaceable. RB is a plug-and-play position once you get past the top 3 or 4 RB's. Let him go and build the O-Line back up.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here only trying to keep in line with the original thought, so I ask, who ??

I only ask this question because I think it bears heavily here when people easily say, "get rid of him" and "it would be easy to replace him". Who out there would not only present a better option than what we currently have, but would want to come here and allow Mike Brown to get him at a decent price ?? I think this is important because when viewing it that way, I don't think it's quite as easy as some may think.

[HairOnFire]

Think about it. Every top FA the Bengals have had since '07 whose contract has run out has been allowed to walk. "Not worth it," we're told. When does it end?

Perhaps you should ask yourself why those players were allowed to reach the end of their contracts when so many other Bengal stars were given contract extensions before reaching FA?

Bitch all you want but Eric Steinbach was easily and instantly replaced by Whitworth. In fact, the OLG position was upgraded. Furthermore, the fact that Whitworth eventually proved good enough to shift to OLT isn't a bad thing even though the shift created another hole. Whitworth's ability to play LT has proven to be a huge positive....not something that deamnds excuses be made in it's defense. Not to mention the fact that you're basing your latest gripe on the loss of players like Steinbach, who not only hasn't lived up to the contract he got from Cleveland, but is annually at risk of losing his starting job....which he almost certainly would have done so already if he played for a better team. Plus, had Steinbach remained a Bengal it's highly likely he wouldn't have kept the OLG starting job as the Bengals were said to be very serious about shifting Steinbach to OC where his lack of size and power could be more easily compensated for.

As for the other losses you can't seem to get over, once Marvin pulled his head from his own ass Carlos Dunlap proved to be an instant upgrade over Justin Smith, right? And if the Bengals have struggled to replace Housh, and they have, it's just as true that Housh ain't Housh no more, and using the gift of perfect hindsight wouldn't have been worth a fraction of the Bengal paycheck he greedily turned down. And yeah, the same thing goes for Madieu Williams and Willie Anderson. Because Williams has busted as hard as a FA can bust, and Anderson's only season as a Raven proved plenty, including the Bengals claim that Anderson could no longer start and shouldn't be paid as a starter....thereby hurting Willies pride. To be perfectly fair, players like Jonathan Joseph can still play and if allowed to leave would represent a true loss. But none of that is true in regards to all of the listed players who were indeed allowed to leave after making contract demands the Bengals refused to meet.

Which brings us once again to the patented RubOnFire. That being, the fact that second guessers like Hoosier don't even bother claiming the departed players were actually worth what they were demanding.....as if things like that don't actually matter. But IMHO if you're not willing to do at least THAT much, well....who gives a s**t?