Carson Palmer Thread

[Spor_tees]

If Marvin is telling the truth, and I'm betting he is, Palmer never mentioned a trade or a threat to hold out unless traded when the two men last spoke in February.

Given that one of the very few things that all the reports agree on is that Palmer did ask for a trade in his January meeting with Mike Brown, I have a hard time believing Marvin's Sgt. Schultz act.

That a Carson Palmer apologist and dedicated Mike Brown hater would find Marvin's words hard to believe isn't suprising, shocking, or even noteworthy. What does seem remarkable is how easily you conclude Palmer must have said the very same things to both men despite their vastly different roles.

Furthermore, Marvin's "act" isn't that of someone who claims to know nothing. Rather, he's saying flatly that Palmer spoke of retirement without any of the trade me trappings he may have shared with Brown. And again, that's hardly suprising when you consider who has the ability to make trades involving the teams so-called franchise player.

Last, your silly rant seems based upon the idea that Carson Palmer has been very open and forthcoming with his employer and his coaches, yet the one thing that defines Palmer's actions since the end of last season has been his unbroken silence and repeated willingness to use others to deliver his complaints. And those aren't the actions of a brave soul willing to speak up for himself, are they?

Not entirely true...wasn't Palmer quoted at a USC game tailgating, saying that he was retired and wouldn't play for the Bengals? I can't remember the exact quote, but it came from the horse's mouth so to speak.

[HoosierCat]

Last, your silly rant seems based upon the idea that Carson Palmer has been very open and forthcoming with his employer and his coaches,

Wow, now one sentence qualifies as a rant?

But no, the reason I don't believe Marvin is, as I said, that Palmer requesting a trade is one of the very few things that every source agrees on. If Marvin didn't hear it from Palmer's lips, then it's only because he didn't ask.

[gregstephens]

And I disagree with your mathematical calculation. How can the precise amount of '95%' of my post not accurately reflect my actual opinion, when in fact it doesn't reflect ANY opinion?

I think you answered your own question, and you're just arguing semantics now.

Your opinion wasn't relevant to the discussion. And my response was made directly to the question itself.

As to whether my response accurately reflected your opinion/intention... I simply don't care. If you don't like being associated with the devil, you probably shouldn't play the part of his advocate.

Oh you are so much better than this.

You are actually going with this? 'Even though I based my response on your quote and it didn't reflect what you wrote, you took issue, but I don't care?'

You sure you don't work for CNN?

offended

Not really offended. All I merely ask is you quit bending my words like a Chinese acrobat. I wasn't offended by the content of your original post. I merely pointed out that, instead of just posting my original post in toto and then making your point, you chose to circumcize your '95%' off the top and post merely the portion that, taken out of context, justified your retort to a non-existent position. Anyone that would have read my post in its entirety and then your reply would've questioned the association between the two.

But I suppose, again for the Centennial Cause, that may have been the point.

[gregstephens]

Last, your silly rant seems based upon the idea that Carson Palmer has been very open and forthcoming with his employer and his coaches,

If Marvin didn't hear it from Palmer's lips, then it's only because he didn't ask.

So 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' is alive and well in Cincy?

[derekshank]

All I merely ask is you quit bending my words like a Chinese acrobat.

I didn't bend s**t. It was a direct quote. And you were playing devil's advocate. That was the context. So nothing I wrote or quoted was in violation of that context.

I wasn't addressing your post as a whole. I was addressing one statement in the post... and the statement I addressed was part of your "devil's advocate" speech. And it fit quite well into that context, so quit acting as if I intentionally did damage to you. I didn't somehow erase your original post. It's still right there for people to read.

So I'm not sure what you are so bent out of shape about. If I wrote a paper detailing the arguments of a someone who denied the moon landing... I wouldn't get my feelings hurt when someone called those arguments rubbish. They aren't my arguments. I was just reporting them.

And if that's the case here... kindly shut up. I didn't do anything improper.

[HairOnFire]

Wow, now one sentence qualifies as a rant?

It's as much as you've written in weeks if drunken gameday rants are ignored. In fact, due to your habit of posting silly pictures without any added content I've started thinking of you as...Beige Jesus.

[TJJackson]

Please continue your petty bickering

91 pages (Hair's double-the-default-posts-per-page setting notwithstanding) and counting

Happy Happy Happy

[HairOnFire]

If Marvin didn't hear it from Palmer's lips, then it's only because he didn't ask.

And you know that how? Were there transcripts of the meetings released that I'm not aware of? If not, it seems painfully obvious you're just making stuff up.

Flyy on the wall?

[Spor_tees]

If Marvin didn't hear it from Palmer's lips, then it's only because he didn't ask.

And you know that how? Were there transcripts of the meetings released that I'm not aware of? If not, it seems painfully obvious you're just making stuff up.

Flyy on the wall?

Honestly Marvin is a meat and potatoes guy. Despite his so called relationship with Chad, I think usually he likes to avoid the dramatics. Marvin is just one of those introvert personalities that holds stuff in. He would make a better poker player than he does and NFL coach.

[gregstephens]

All I merely ask is you quit bending my words like a Chinese acrobat.

I didn't bend s**t. It was a direct quote. And you were playing devil's advocate. That was the context. So nothing I wrote or quoted was in violation of that context.

I wasn't addressing your post as a whole. I was addressing one statement in the post... and the statement I addressed was part of your "devil's advocate" speech. And it fit quite well into that context, so quit acting as if I intentionally did damage to you. I didn't somehow erase your original post. It's still right there for people to read.

So I'm not sure what you are so bent out of shape about. If I wrote a paper detailing the arguments of a someone who denied the moon landing... I wouldn't get my feelings hurt when someone called those arguments rubbish. They aren't my arguments. I was just reporting them.

And if that's the case here... kindly shut up. I didn't do anything improper.

Oh bullsh*t. You are absolutely not this ignorant. If you wrote a paper about the Kennedy assassination where you included the devil's advocate question "Isn't it reasonable to conclude there was a second shooter?" and then explained your position that no it was not, then I ONLY snipped the above question and argued like shanks believes in the second shooter theory, then you would have the equivalent of what you did to my original post.

You argued that one little sentence as if it represented a position that I held when you know darn well from the surrounding context that was not my position. I wouldn't say you did anything improper, but it was disingenuous. I wouldn't even say it was intentional at this point. I actually believe you just didn't know better.

Regardless, if you are going to pick at a post, quote the whole damn thing so people can see what you are talking about.

[HairOnFire]

Please continue your petty bickering....

You're just happy nobody has seen fit yet to mention how the guy in your avatar got his ass kicked again. And funnier still, he then went to jail for being drunk and resisting arrest.

[gregstephens]

Please continue your petty bickering

91 pages (Hair's double-the-default-posts-per-page setting notwithstanding) and counting

Happy Happy Happy

Only reason I'm continuing this petty snit with derek. The Centennial is in view.

[gregstephens]

Please continue your petty bickering....

You're just happy nobody has seen fit yet to mention how the guy in your avatar got his ass kicked again. And funnier still, he then went to jail for being drunk and resisting arrest.

Yeah. WTF TJ????

[gregstephens]

This technically is NFL news, but since there is a minute (my-nyoot, not min-it) connection to Palmer, we keep adding to our centennial.

Cross the Dolphins off the list. PFT reporting that, while Chad Henne is done, the Fins have secured the services of one Sage Rosenfels.

Sorry, Carson, sol again.

[derekshank]

Oh bullsh*t. You are absolutely not this ignorant. If you wrote a paper about the Kennedy assassination where you included the devil's advocate question "Isn't it reasonable to conclude there was a second shooter?" and then explained your position that no it was not, then I ONLY snipped the above question and argued like shanks believes in the second shooter theory, then you would have the equivalent of what you did to my original post.

Bulls**t right back.

If my paper was written with the intention of sparking conversation about whether or not a 2nd shooter is reasonable conclusion... it would be an understood assumption that people would pick parts pf my paper to converse about.

I wouldn't say you did anything improper, but it was disingenuous. I wouldn't even say it was intentional at this point. I actually believe you just didn't know better.

Why are you being such a condescending little prick today?

I didn't know better? Quit acting like I received a private email from you and only reported one sentence to the group. Your whole damn post is right there for anyone to read.

Your original post begins by suggesting you want to keep the conversation going... and that's all I was doing.

Regardless, if you are going to pick at a post, quote the whole damn thing so people can see what you are talking about.

I wasn't responding to your entire post. And I didn't delete your post either. Seriously. Take a look. It's still there. Anyone who wants to read it still can.

Your post contained a variety of ideas about the legitimacy or illegitimacy of Palmer's reasons for retiring. I was responding to one of those ideas... not all of them.

[HoosierCat]

If Marvin didn't hear it from Palmer's lips, then it's only because he didn't ask.

And you know that how?

Well, Mike Brown did tell bengals.com in late January that Palmer had asked for a trade and had been told no, that the team was not in a position to trade him and that he was central to their plans going forward. This was dutifully picked up and quoted by just about every media outlet on the planet, and since Lewis was not to my knowledge vacationing outside the solar system at the time, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that he heard. So if he didn't hear it directly from Palmer in February, I can only think it's because he didn't bother to ask. It's not as if it were a secret.

Just to be clear, I don't doubt that you're right that Carson has gotten plenty of advice on what to do from his wife, family and friends. I just don't think the timeline supports the idea that retirement came first, and then subsequently the decision was made to try and force a trade. If that were the case, we wouldn't have been reading "Carson Palmer demands a trade" stories back during senior bowl week, we would have been reading "Carson Palmer quits" stories.

I think Carson (and family, etc.) made the decision on their current strategy at that point Freeman mentioned in the cbs story, a few weeks before the end of last season when a long-disgruntled Palmer suddenly quit complaining and appeared to be happier.

[Spor_tees]

I don't get the whole hubaluba about what Marvin knows or doesn't know. From being a Bengals fan from long before Marvin and until now, you have to know Marvin will tell the media as little as possible. Marvin's statement that as far as he is concerned Palmer is just retired, deflects any further conversation in the matter as far as the media is concerned. It's about as useful as pleading the 5th amendment. So if a reporter continues to press Marvin he will just simply repeat "Carson is retired as far as I know." To think that Marvin truly didn't hear straight from Palmer that he was either retired or wanted traded, could be believed, but that Marvin didn't know of the situation altogether, is kind of ludicrous. I don't see Marvin as a guy that buddy, buddy with his players and I don't see him reaching out and call his players from time to time.

If Carson was supposed to be an integral part of the teams future like Mike Brown said, I do think it is quite odd that Marvin wouldn't reach out to Palmer from time to time, and he says that hasn't happened. Maybe there was more stuff going on behind the scenes last season than was reported? No wonder the season was so dysfunctional it the QB was just a lameduck QB waiting to pack up his locker.

[HairOnFire]

To think that Marvin truly didn't hear straight from Palmer that he was either retired or wanted traded, could be believed, but that Marvin didn't know of the situation altogether, is kind of ludicrous.

I've neither said or implied that Lewis wasn't aware of Palmer's frustration. After all, Lewis has admitted he and his staff had discussed replacing Palmer a year before the s**thead hit the fan. But Lewis did state flatly that Palmer has never discussed a trade demand with him, and under the circumstances I wouldn't have expected him to.

Palmer knows who the owner of the team is and where to take his complaint. He also has to have a pretty good idea of how likely it is that Brown would trade a franchise player under any circumstance, nevermind trading a franchise player due to a threat to retire if not moved to the team of his choice.

Frankly, the whole idea that it is Lewis who is playing the SgtShultz role is pretty silly. Lewis has already answered hundreds of questions about Palmer's situation while Palmer himself has answered none. Furthermore, Lewis showed no hesitation in giving his version of events while Palmer has yet to do so.

Last, the rant about Lewis not asking Palmer about a trade in February deliberately ignores reality. Lewis is in no position to discuss trading Palmer without Mike Brown's approval and it seems certain Brown didn't give Lewis that power. Which brings us neatly to one of the fundamental rules of negotiating.

Never discuss matters that aren't on the table or debate solutions you're in no position to implement.

[HoosierCat]

Last, the rant about Lewis not asking Palmer about a trade in February deliberately ignores reality.

Not at all. In fact, Lewis calling Palmer to discuss retirement but not a trade fits perfectly with what the Bengals said after Mort broke the news of Palmer's trade-me-or-I-retire ultimatum. The Bengals confirmed that Carson had met with Mike Brown and requested a trade, but denied he'd made any kind of threat to retire. That was (allegedly) news to them. If that's true, I can easily see Lewis calling Carson after the Senior Bowl, knowing full well he wanted to be traded, to ask if this retirement thing was serious.

[HairOnFire]

Just to be clear, I don't doubt that you're right that Carson has gotten plenty of advice on what to do from his wife, family and friends. I just don't think the timeline supports the idea that retirement came first, and then subsequently the decision was made to try and force a trade.

Again, hasn't Lewis admitted how he and his staff first discussed replacing Palmer a year before any of this became public? If true, what do you imagine prompted Lewis to consider such a dramatic step many months before you claim Palmer first approached Brown about a trade? Isn't it reasonable to assume Palmer was already grumbling about quitting?

Frankly, I have no reason to doubt Lewis when he says Palmer has never discussed a trade with him precisely because trading a franchise player is something that falls well above Marvin's pay grade. Granted, Palmer could have brought it up but it would have served no purpose if Lewis wasn't granted that power by Brown....which you admit he wasn't given. In fact, Brown all but squashed Palmer's trade demands in their prior meeting, right? And you claim that was the first time Palmer had demanded a trade, right?

So again, why was Marvin and his staff discussing how to replace Palmer a year before any of this became public?

[Spor_tees]

Just to be clear, I don't doubt that you're right that Carson has gotten plenty of advice on what to do from his wife, family and friends. I just don't think the timeline supports the idea that retirement came first, and then subsequently the decision was made to try and force a trade.

Again, hasn't Lewis admitted how he and his staff first discussed replacing Palmer a year before any of this became public? If true, what do you imagine prompted Lewis to consider such a dramatic step many months before you claim Palmer first approached Brown about a trade? Isn't it reasonable to assume Palmer was already grumbling about quitting?

Frankly, I have no reason to doubt Lewis when he says Palmer has never discussed a trade with him precisely because trading a franchise player is something that falls well above Marvin's pay grade. Granted, Palmer could have brought it up but it would have served no purpose if Lewis wasn't granted that power by Brown....which you admit he wasn't given. In fact, Brown all but squashed Palmer's trade demands in their prior meeting, right? And you claim that was the first time Palmer had demanded a trade, right?

So again, why was Marvin and his staff discussing how to replace Palmer a year before any of this became public?

Wouldn't the fact that he had a major knee surgery, in which many believe he has never had the same mobility, have some affect on their decision? What about the fact he basically missed half of a season or more from a nerve damage problem in his throwing elbow?

I think they were thinking about bringing in his future replacement now rather as in later because they had no idea really how much longer his body was going to last. What good was an immobile quarterback with a noodle arm going to do the team?

As to the February conversation between Palmer and Lewis, is it really beyond comprehension to believe Lewis tried to talk him out of his trade demands and to not retire, or maybe to even see if the whole retire rumor was true or not. Why else is Marvin calling him in February? Were they discussing the weather in California? How much the Bahama Mamma ganja was going for per ounce? Maybe they were discussing what Andy Dalton's nickname should be....who knows? What I do know is Marvin has admitted to a conversation with Palmer and I believe there was more substance to it than he lets on.

[HoosierCat]

So again, why was Marvin and his staff discussing how to replace Palmer a year before any of this became public?

:lol: You're killin' me, smalls. Y'know, back someplace around page 70 of this thread you agreed with (IIRC) membengal that I had lost my mind arguing that the Bengals were actively trying to replace Palmer (with Michael Vick) in August of 2009, and derek was swearing up and down that no such move was or could ever have been contemplated because Carson Palmer was the Golden Child who got everything he wanted.

Now you tell me that they wanted to replace Palmer at least a year before he asked for a trade.

Welcome to the looney bin.

[jjakq27]

Bump...

I am disappointed that this topic almost fell off of page 1. We're still 10 pages off of 100.

Carson is in Cali, and the Bengals don't really seem to miss him. Other than that, what's to say?

Just stirring it up a little Bill, that's all.

You're trying to get this thread to 100 pages. Well let me help.

Not sure what happens after 100 pages....does Carson retire at that point? DO we start another thread? Does Pumpkin go "Bob Irsay" on us and secretly trade Palmer without Pops knowing? Hmmm.

[gregstephens]

Oh bullsh*t. You are absolutely not this ignorant. If you wrote a paper about the Kennedy assassination where you included the devil's advocate question "Isn't it reasonable to conclude there was a second shooter?" and then explained your position that no it was not, then I ONLY snipped the above question and argued like shanks believes in the second shooter theory, then you would have the equivalent of what you did to my original post.

Bulls**t right back.

If my paper was written with the intention of sparking conversation about whether or not a 2nd shooter is reasonable conclusion... it would be an understood assumption that people would pick parts pf my paper to converse about.

I wouldn't say you did anything improper, but it was disingenuous. I wouldn't even say it was intentional at this point. I actually believe you just didn't know better.

Why are you being such a condescending little prick today?

I didn't know better? Quit acting like I received a private email from you and only reported one sentence to the group. Your whole damn post is right there for anyone to read.

Your original post begins by suggesting you want to keep the conversation going... and that's all I was doing.

Regardless, if you are going to pick at a post, quote the whole damn thing so people can see what you are talking about.

I wasn't responding to your entire post. And I didn't delete your post either. Seriously. Take a look. It's still there. Anyone who wants to read it still can.

Your post contained a variety of ideas about the legitimacy or illegitimacy of Palmer's reasons for retiring. I was responding to one of those ideas... not all of them.

Actually the most reasonable post you've made in megathread today.

Why am I being a condescending little prick today? Why, is today supposed to be different than any other one?

[Spor_tees]

Derek you didn't delete his post but because of some of the things you said about it, I make sure to cover it up with my hand as I scroll through the screen. So now in a way you indirectly censored his post which is a violation of his first amendment rights.

Way to go!