Carson Palmer Thread

[ArmyBengal]

Since we have no idea if there's interest in Palmer, there is a new awesome QB for the "QB needy" teams to get into a bidding war over.
/>http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/25/there-could-be-battle-for-bulger-in-nfc-west/

Yeah, Marc freakin' Bulger...

[HairOnFire]

Yeah, I know, there's no CBA, so it makes all of this difficult, but no CBA doesn't keep him from talking.

I see nothing above that would give me the impression he is.

So your core complaint boils down to this.

Mike Brown has shown absolutely no willingness to be proactive during a time period when no action is possible. Furthermore, you fear he may be telling the truth about not considering any trades even though Brown's own words prove he has considered the idea and found it lacking. Brown even goes so far as to explain exactly why he finds the idea lacking....vital information for those who may still be interested enough to call later.

Seems thin.

[TJJackson]

So your core complaint boils down to this.

Mike Brown has shown absolutely no willingness to be proactive during a time period when no action is possible.

This is manifestly incorrect, Hair.

Many types of actions - trading players for example, or holding OTAs - cannot be taken. Understood/agreed.

Others, like picking up a telephone and talking to the GM of the Seahawks (and/or of other teams w/need at the QB spot), can absolutely be taken. And such a discussion (seahawks gm, niners GM, whoever) could include informally discussing if there is sufficient value to be had in exchange for Carson Palmer's contract. There's no rule against making a phone call or having a conversation.

So no, this is NOT "a time period when no action is possible"

And this my friend is where we 'trade him' camp members are right now. Have the damn informal discussions. Don't sit there and collect your ridiculous million dollar salary as our alleged GM and ignore your ability to enter 10 numbers on your rented rotary dial telephone and speak with a fellow human being about a matter of potentially great impact (financial and on-field) to the team you are paid outrageously to manage.

A related item: we see free agent contracts every year that are signed within minutes of midnight of the day free agency begins. I do not buy (nor does any reasonable person buy) that discussions for said contract (usually for HUGE dollars) were completed between the opening bell and the 12:03 actual signing. Informal discussions, allowed or not (and they're not in those cases, per the rules) were held.

Hold a freaking informal discussion, you freaking twit.

(err, not you Hair, rather S-o-a-G)

[ArmyBengal]

Yeah, I know, there's no CBA, so it makes all of this difficult, but no CBA doesn't keep him from talking.

I see nothing above that would give me the impression he is.

So your core complaint boils down to this.

Mike Brown has shown absolutely no willingness to be proactive during a time period when no action is possible. Furthermore, you fear he may be telling the truth about not considering any trades even though Brown's own words prove he has considered the idea and found it lacking. Brown even goes so far as to explain exactly why he finds the idea lacking....vital information for those who may still be interested enough to call later.

Seems thin.

C'mon, just because you can't do something doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare for when the time comes. Yes, I have issue in sitting with thumb planted firmly in rectum. There IS something that can be done to get to where this is fruitful for the organization.

I don't "fear" he's telling the truth, I "believe" he's telling the truth about not considering a trade and don't see how he can come to a conclusion that it would be lacking prior to really guaging the market, pitting needy teams against themselves. Don't think that would happen ?? Look no further then the clammoring of teams that will line up to fill the same need Palmer would fill, with a subpar Bulger.

Again, him explaning his thoughts to why it's lacking is working on less than full information of what teams may in fact be willing to throw his way if they in fact knew Palmer was available. People may think teams still call to inquire, but I think that number is far less than what it could be if teams knew for certain.

I think letting the world know Palmer was available would create a real stir.

Sure nothing could definitively get done, but it could change the direction teams go in come the draft.

You may think that's thin, I think it's Brown waiting to be reactive as opposed to him be proactive.

The whole, "It only makes sense to wait and hope Carson comes around" makes me believe that even more.

Sorry, not willing to give him credit.

[HairOnFire]

Hold a freaking informal discussion, you freaking twit.

Are you implying Mike's rented rotary-dialed telephone isn't capable of recieving incoming calls?

Seems unlikely.

In most matters related to business negotiations, games of sport, limited warfare, total warfare, and acts of sex the consequences of going first can be quite dramatic. Hence the business related phrase "He who speaks first loses often."

Besides, cold calling NFL GM's doesn't support the desired image of a reluctant seller who is willing to ignore all offers that aren't substantial.

Go big or stay home.

A 1st round pick won't get the job done and might not be enough to get your call past Mike's secretary.

Message sent loud and clear.

No phone call required.

[HoosierCat]

Palmer has steadfastly refused to use the influence that comes with his position and status, always preferring to act like just another cog in the machine.

And you know this how? Do you have a magic invisible camera that's been following Carson for eight years so you know he's never used his influence? In fact, all indications have always been exactly the opposite: anything the golden boy wants (except a trade) he's gotten.

How about openly criticizing both players for the diva behavior that now defines them?

Actually, Carson did openly knock both Chad and TJ for not being in town in the offseason.

So in eight years you can think of just two examples where Palmer used his influence in the same manner as other franchise QB's routinely do?

No, those are just the two examples I can think of offhand. How much more has gone on in the background I don't know, and frankly neither do you or Gregg Doyle.

Because even when Housh praises Palmer as an elite QB he freely admits that Palmer couldn't control Chad, Owens, or himself.

So it's Palmer's fault now when a player chooses to ignore him and be a douchebag? Why do you hate Chad so much then, when clearly it's Palmer that's the problem?

[HairOnFire]

I don't "fear" he's telling the truth, I "believe" he's telling the truth about not considering a trade and don't see how he can come to a conclusion that it would be lacking prior to really guaging the market, pitting needy teams against themselves.

I'm guessing he HAS judged the market and determined there are far more needy teams than available quality quarterbacks.

Don't think that would happen ?? Look no further then the clammoring of teams that will line up to fill the same need Palmer would fill, with a subpar Bulger.

And? Where's the harm in allowing one team to help set a higher price for Palmer? Or just for giggles, how about a scenario where a half dozen teams have picked their poison, each one overpaying more than the last, further inflating the market price for the last QB standing.

[HairOnFire]

Do you have a magic invisible camera that's been following Carson for eight years so you know he's never used his influence? In fact, all indications have always been exactly the opposite: anything the golden boy wants (except a trade) he's gotten.

If you believe he's gotten everything he's asked for then how can you support what he's doing?

Oh, that's right. You don't even care why Palmer is quitting.

Actually, Carson did openly knock both Chad and TJ for not being in town in the offseason.

Are you implying Palmer adequately controlled them? Was his criticism productive? Has he followed through?

So in eight years you can think of just two examples where Palmer used his influence in the same manner as other franchise QB's routinely do?

No, those are just the two examples I can think of offhand. How much more has gone on in the background I don't know, and frankly neither do you or Gregg Doyle.

Well, there you go again, always pointing towards nothing.....and talking as if it were something.

[ArmyBengal]

I don't "fear" he's telling the truth, I "believe" he's telling the truth about not considering a trade and don't see how he can come to a conclusion that it would be lacking prior to really guaging the market, pitting needy teams against themselves.

I'm guessing he HAS judged the market and determined there are far more needy teams than available quality quarterbacks.

Don't think that would happen ?? Look no further then the clammoring of teams that will line up to fill the same need Palmer would fill, with a subpar Bulger.

And? Where's the harm in allowing one team to help set a higher price for Palmer? Or just for giggles, how about a scenario where a half dozen teams have picked their poison, each one overpaying more than the last, further inflating the market price for the last QB standing.

There may be more needy teams than available quality quarterbacks, but I believe after the draft, that number will diminish greatly and teams will be willing to move on knowing they have invested in that position in other ways.

I can't see Bulger inflating sh*t. I view him as another QB out there that teams will view as a starting QB to (if nothing else) get them through. Meaning, he will go to one of the needy teams that would be interested in Palmer if they thought he was truly available and lessen the teams to engage in a bidding process for Palmer's services. Last QB standing ??

[HoosierCat]

If you believe he's gotten everything he's asked for then how can you support what he's doing?

IF he's gotten everything he's asked for, given the results, why would you want to keep him?

Are you implying Palmer adequately controlled them? Was his criticism productive? Has he followed through?

I wasn't aware that carson had the power to cut, trade or bench players.

Well, there you go again, always pointing towards nothing.....and talking as if it were something.

No more than you.

[F.Cleveland]

So your core complaint boils down to this.

Mike Brown has shown absolutely no willingness to be proactive during a time period when no action is possible.

This is manifestly incorrect, Hair.

Many types of actions - trading players for example, or holding OTAs - cannot be taken. Understood/agreed.

Others, like picking up a telephone and talking to the GM of the Seahawks (and/or of other teams w/need at the QB spot), can absolutely be taken. And such a discussion (seahawks gm, niners GM, whoever) could include informally discussing if there is sufficient value to be had in exchange for Carson Palmer's contract. There's no rule against making a phone call or having a conversation.

So no, this is NOT "a time period when no action is possible"

And this my friend is where we 'trade him' camp members are right now. Have the damn informal discussions. Don't sit there and collect your ridiculous million dollar salary as our alleged GM and ignore your ability to enter 10 numbers on your rented rotary dial telephone and speak with a fellow human being about a matter of potentially great impact (financial and on-field) to the team you are paid outrageously to manage.

A related item: we see free agent contracts every year that are signed within minutes of midnight of the day free agency begins. I do not buy (nor does any reasonable person buy) that discussions for said contract (usually for HUGE dollars) were completed between the opening bell and the 12:03 actual signing. Informal discussions, allowed or not (and they're not in those cases, per the rules) were held.

Hold a freaking informal discussion, you freaking twit.

(err, not you Hair, rather S-o-a-G)

Do you really think that if he were to do this he would announce it to the world? For all we know, he has had several conversations about this ver subject and would say the exact opposite in public. No one who really wants Palmer is going to make those comversations public if they really want Palmer. With Marvin openly criticizing 85, MB unwilling to say they won't trade him, and both Marvin and Gruden acting as if he's no longer on the team, it looks to me like they may already have a deal ready for him. Would it be too far of a stretch to think maybe some of the other owners can keep a secret?

Like has been said previously, there is absolutley no advantage to announcing his intentions to the world until he can pull the trigger. The only possible advantage is to make people stop opening questioning his intent, which works to Carsons advantage more than his. Setting the fan base up for the expectation of a trade adds to the leverage of any/all of his opponents.

MB's judgement of playing ability is suspect but his ability to understand leverage in negotiations is far from it. If it takes patience and will, he wins.

[BengalszoneBilly]

MB's judgement of playing ability is suspect but his ability to understand leverage in negotiations is far from it. If it takes patience and will, he wins.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mike Browns patience and will led us to a playoff win? Here's a hint... don't hold your breath.

[cincyhokie]

MB's judgement of playing ability is suspect but his ability to understand leverage in negotiations is far from it. If it takes patience and will, he wins.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mike Browns patience and will led us to a playoff win? Here's a hint... don't hold your breath.

You nailed it.

[F.Cleveland]

MB's judgement of playing ability is suspect but his ability to understand leverage in negotiations is far from it. If it takes patience and will, he wins.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mike Browns patience and will led us to a playoff win? Here's a hint... don't hold your breath.

What happens to all the chronic whiners when that does happen? Will you move on to complaining about how there aren't two championships?

[BengalszoneBilly]

MB's judgement of playing ability is suspect but his ability to understand leverage in negotiations is far from it. If it takes patience and will, he wins.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mike Browns patience and will led us to a playoff win? Here's a hint... don't hold your breath.

What happens to all the chronic whiners when that does happen? Will you move on to complaining about how there aren't two championships?

Who said anything about a "championship"? Dude, you've got to win a playoff game before that even becomes a possibility!

Listen kid, I've been following this team since '68. Back when Paul ran the show, playoff wins happened occasionally. If you want to argue that Mike Brown hasn't been a complete and utter failure, knock yourself out.

[TJJackson]

Hold a freaking informal discussion, you freaking twit.

Are you implying Mike's rented rotary-dialed telephone isn't capable of recieving incoming calls?

Seems unlikely.

Agreed. However, the ringing accomplishes nothing. The answerign of said phone and subsequent speaking to the caller can. Or rather should.

In most matters related to business negotiations, games of sport, limited warfare, total warfare, and acts of sex the consequences of going first can be quite dramatic.

The fact that BrideOnFire has to pleasure herself after you roll over with a silly grin on your face is of no consequence to me. She said I do, she pays the price. :-)

Hence the business related phrase "He who speaks first loses often."

He doesn't have to speak first. There are plenty of folks (the Dolphins, for example, a late entry to the fray) who want to speak to him.

Besides, cold calling NFL GM's doesn't support the desired image of a reluctant seller who is willing to ignore all offers that aren't substantial.

I 'cold call' is when you have little or no basis for believing the recipient of the call has an interest in what you have for sale. This is not the case here. It's quite clear who the 'buyer's are an what their level of interest is. Again - Seahawks, Minny, Niners, Cards, Fins, et al. He knows what they want and why. Cold call is not applicable here.

Go big or stay home.

A 1st round pick won't get the job done and might not be enough to get your call past Mike's secretary.

Thats fine, so take the call and listen for a 1 and a 2 an a journeyman QB as an opener and see where it goes from there

Message sent loud and clear.

No phone call required.

True enough, he can sit on his a$$ and collect his pay without doing a damn thing. He has indeed sent his message loud and clear to us fans, once again

So....you want lube or no lube, Hair?

[agreen_112]

Hold a freaking informal discussion, you freaking twit.

Are you implying Mike's rented rotary-dialed telephone isn't capable of recieving incoming calls?

Seems unlikely.

Agreed. However, the ringing accomplishes nothing. The answerign of said phone and subsequent speaking to the caller can. Or rather should.

In most matters related to business negotiations, games of sport, limited warfare, total warfare, and acts of sex the consequences of going first can be quite dramatic.

The fact that BrideOnFire has to pleasure herself after you roll over with a silly grin on your face is of no consequence to me. She said I do, she pays the price. :-)

Hence the business related phrase "He who speaks first loses often."

He doesn't have to speak first. There are plenty of folks (the Dolphins, for example, a late entry to the fray) who want to speak to him.

Besides, cold calling NFL GM's doesn't support the desired image of a reluctant seller who is willing to ignore all offers that aren't substantial.

I 'cold call' is when you have little or no basis for believing the recipient of the call has an interest in what you have for sale. This is not the case here. It's quite clear who the 'buyer's are an what their level of interest is. Again - Seahawks, Minny, Niners, Cards, Fins, et al. He knows what they want and why. Cold call is not applicable here.

Go big or stay home.

A 1st round pick won't get the job done and might not be enough to get your call past Mike's secretary.

Thats fine, so take the call and listen for a 1 and a 2 an a journeyman QB as an opener and see where it goes from there

Message sent loud and clear.

No phone call required.

True enough, he can sit on his a$$ and collect his pay without doing a damn thing. He has indeed sent his message loud and clear to us fans, once again

So....you want lube or no lube, Hair?

Impressive TJ... with all those multi-quotes, you're post is almost readable.

On to better things.....

My source on the inside says Palmer is close to getting his wish. Take it as that, it's all I have for now.

[BengalPimp]

On to better things.....

My source on the inside says Palmer is close to getting his wish. Take it as that, it's all I have for now.

Well, that settles it, I mean, we ALL know that Agreen, err...Gizzle knows EVERYBODY in the NFL, so that confirms it right there

[BengalPimp]

In most matters related to business negotiations, games of sport, limited warfare, total warfare, and acts of sex the consequences of going first can be quite dramatic.

The fact that BrideOnFire has to pleasure herself after you roll over with a silly grin on your face is of no consequence to me. She said I do, she pays the price. :-)

Oh Damn!!!

[TJJackson]

Impressive TJ... with all those multi-quotes, you're post is almost readable.

I think you meant "your" which means "belonging to me" rather than "you're" which means "you are".

So flaming funny that you want to slam me for readability yet have no sense of basic spelling and grammar.

What an absolute waste of human flesh you are.

My source on the inside says Palmer is close to getting his wish. Take it as that, it's all I have for now.

So that would be your 2nd cousin's dogwalker's aunt's hairdresser's brother-in-law who once served a beer at an airport bar to Carson's accountant's housekeeper, or somesuch.

Or what they hell, f you're gonna lie to us as always anyway, why not go big? My suggestion: claim you are romancing Shaelynn away from Carson and you got her to fess up to some things due to your mad skills with the ladies.

Yeah, we got it.

[F.Cleveland]

MB's judgement of playing ability is suspect but his ability to understand leverage in negotiations is far from it. If it takes patience and will, he wins.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mike Browns patience and will led us to a playoff win? Here's a hint... don't hold your breath.

What happens to all the chronic whiners when that does happen? Will you move on to complaining about how there aren't two championships?

Who said anything about a "championship"? Dude, you've got to win a playoff game before that even becomes a possibility!

Listen kid, I've been following this team since '68. Back when Paul ran the show, playoff wins happened occasionally. If you want to argue that Mike Brown hasn't been a complete and utter failure, knock yourself out.

Kid? Does it make you feel tough to be older than me? You "followed" the Bengals before I was born.... wow. My great granpa says he's tougher than you! He "followed" the Reds in the early 1900's, you know nothing!

[F.Cleveland]

MB's judgement of playing ability is suspect but his ability to understand leverage in negotiations is far from it. If it takes patience and will, he wins.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mike Browns patience and will led us to a playoff win? Here's a hint... don't hold your breath.

You nailed it.

If MB can do no right, then why do you guys keep doing this to yourselves? If you know for sure that every decision he makes is wrong even before he makes it why bother? Do you hate yourselves that much or do you just like to whine? No one on this or any Bengals related board beleives he has done a great job but you act like he's never done anything right... and then you whine about it.

MB is the son of one of the greatest innovators this game has ever seen. I get that's ironic that he is stuck in time. The old school perspective doesn't work all that well in today's NFL, but it has some merits. That being said, he's not the cause of everything bad to ever happen.

[agreen_112]

Hold a freaking informal discussion, you freaking twit.

Are you implying Mike's rented rotary-dialed telephone isn't capable of recieving incoming calls?

Seems unlikely.

Agreed. However, the ringing accomplishes nothing. The answerign of said phone and subsequent speaking to the caller can. Or rather should.

In most matters related to business negotiations, games of sport, limited warfare, total warfare, and acts of sex the consequences of going first can be quite dramatic.

The fact that BrideOnFire has to pleasure herself after you roll over with a silly grin on your face is of no consequence to me. She said I do, she pays the price. :-)

Hence the business related phrase "He who speaks first loses often."

He doesn't have to speak first. There are plenty of folks (the Dolphins, for example, a late entry to the fray) who want to speak to him.

Besides, cold calling NFL GM's doesn't support the desired image of a reluctant seller who is willing to ignore all offers that aren't substantial.

I 'cold call' is when you have little or no basis for believing the recipient of the call has an interest in what you have for sale. This is not the case here. It's quite clear who the 'buyer's are an what their level of interest is. Again - Seahawks, Minny, Niners, Cards, Fins, et al. He knows what they want and why. Cold call is not applicable here.

Go big or stay home.

A 1st round pick won't get the job done and might not be enough to get your call past Mike's secretary.

Thats fine, so take the call and listen for a 1 and a 2 an a journeyman QB as an opener and see where it goes from there

Message sent loud and clear.

No phone call required.

True enough, he can sit on his a$$ and collect his pay without doing a damn thing. He has indeed sent his message loud and clear to us fans, once again

So....you want lube or no lube, Hair?

Hey smart guy, looks like I'm not the only one who makes mistakes.... ^^^^ BURN!

[cincyhokie]

MB's judgement of playing ability is suspect but his ability to understand leverage in negotiations is far from it. If it takes patience and will, he wins.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mike Browns patience and will led us to a playoff win? Here's a hint... don't hold your breath.

You nailed it.

If MB can do no right, then why do you guys keep doing this to yourselves? If you know for sure that every decision he makes is wrong even before he makes it why bother? Do you hate yourselves that much or do you just like to whine? No one on this or any Bengals related board beleives he has done a great job but you act like he's never done anything right... and then you whine about it.

MB is the son of one of the greatest innovators this game has ever seen. I get that's ironic that he is stuck in time. The old school perspective doesn't work all that well in today's NFL, but it has some merits. That being said, he's not the cause of everything bad to ever happen.

Personally, I'm not arguing with anything you said. I do agree he does some things well. Negotiations very well may be one of those things. The point is that it hasn't translated to the number one reason we follow the Bengals. We want to see them win and win consistently. That hasn't happened and I don't believe that bad luck for the last 20 plus years has alot to do with it. The ultimate validating proof that Mike Brown is successful is by winning. Period.

Criticizing something you care about and follow isn't necessarily whining. If not responding to your statement in the way you wanted it is the problem, then I don't know what to tell you.

[F.Cleveland]

MB's judgement of playing ability is suspect but his ability to understand leverage in negotiations is far from it. If it takes patience and will, he wins.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mike Browns patience and will led us to a playoff win? Here's a hint... don't hold your breath.

You nailed it.

If MB can do no right, then why do you guys keep doing this to yourselves? If you know for sure that every decision he makes is wrong even before he makes it why bother? Do you hate yourselves that much or do you just like to whine? No one on this or any Bengals related board beleives he has done a great job but you act like he's never done anything right... and then you whine about it.

MB is the son of one of the greatest innovators this game has ever seen. I get that's ironic that he is stuck in time. The old school perspective doesn't work all that well in today's NFL, but it has some merits. That being said, he's not the cause of everything bad to ever happen.

Personally, I'm not arguing with anything you said. I do agree he does some things well. Negotiations very well may be one of those things. The point is that it hasn't translated to the number one reason we follow the Bengals. We want to see them win and win consistently. That hasn't happened and I don't believe that bad luck for the last 20 plus years has alot to do with it. The ultimate validating proof that Mike Brown is successful is by winning. Period.

Criticizing something you care about and follow isn't necessarily whining. If not responding to your statement in the way you wanted it is the problem, then I don't know what to tell you.

The point is not how someone answers my post, it's throwing a beyond dead horse that you won't stop beating into a discussion. I just get tired of the hate colored glasses that some people view the Bengals and MB in particular with. I am a Bengals fan and by extension I root for MB to make the right decisions. When he does, I get sick of hearing the "but he still sucks" mentality. Those are the people who booed Carson when he hit 20,000 yds and before half in the last playoff game. There's a difference between criticizing/critiquing and complaining/whining. One is constructive and lends itself to conversation, while the other is/does not.