The ship is docking in Cincinnati

[TJJackson]

where are all the Chad lovers today?

isn't he just the bestest?

yeah, he's so good, he doesn't need to be at OTAs and etc.

[BengalByTheBay]

The question that needs asnwering isn't whose better than Marvin. Rather, it's what point would be served allowing Lewis to finish out the next 11 games after throwing this season away in just 5 games?

If he wasn't already a lame duck before Sunday's fiasco then he is now.

End it now.

I'll bite - I think the odds were pretty long that Marvin would be coming back next season. Likely SOP was simply biding his time - if the Bengals had a great season he could think about re-upping. In any other case, he could let the contract expire. There was no real need to place his bet too early and he didn't. So, after a bad loss it's no real surprise to hear this overreaction, but you can stop waiting for Lewis to be fired during the season. Unless I miss my guess, that's not going to be the way it plays out. Not Mike's style. For better or worse, and from the looks of it this ain't gonna be a "great season," Marvin will be out the door along with TO when the season is over. As for "who's better," I'm sure there are better fits for this team now (although I think ML WAS the perfect fit when hired), but whether they will be looked at is a question. Funny, I remember Dom Capers being one of the few candidates when ML was hired.

[BengalByTheBay]

where are all the Chad lovers today?

isn't he just the bestest?

yeah, he's so good, he doesn't need to be at OTAs and etc.

One...Note...Song.

Plenty of blame to go around for this loss.

[HairOnFire]

So, after a bad loss it's no real surprise to hear this overreaction, but you can stop waiting for Lewis to be fired during the season. Unless I miss my guess, that's not going to be the way it plays out. Not Mike's style.

I asked for a valid reason why Lewis should be allowed to coach out the rest of the season and you respond by telling my why it'll happen. Left unanswered is the original question. So let me reword the question. How is this team served by allowing a lame duck head coach and a twisting-n-the-wind offensive coordinator continue building a new offense that is almost certain to be scrapped by whoever comes next?

For better or worse, and from the looks of it this ain't gonna be a "great season," Marvin will be out the door along with TO when the season is over. quote]

So the offensive rebuilding project that just cost this team it's season will continue to be under the control of a head coach who won't be here next season, and will have it's plays called by an offensive coordinator almost sure to be fired. Plus, the new passing game will continue being built around two again WR's, one of them a 40+ WR who almost certainly won't be back, and the other an underperforming douchebag who shouldn't be allowed back.

[BengalByTheBay]

So, after a bad loss it's no real surprise to hear this overreaction, but you can stop waiting for Lewis to be fired during the season. Unless I miss my guess, that's not going to be the way it plays out. Not Mike's style.

I asked for a valid reason why Lewis should be allowed to coach out the rest of the season and you respond by telling my why it'll happen. Left unanswered is the original question. So let me reword the question. How is this team served by allowing a lame duck head coach and a twisting-n-the-wind offensive coordinator continue building a new offense that is almost certain to be scrapped by whoever comes next?

If I am correct in my surmise, what's the point of discussing whether a coach should be fired now or not? That said, I can answer your question with an opinion. A lame duck coach should be allowed to finish the season if the alternative - hiring or elevating an "interim" coach - is worse. I would, and will, argue that the interim coach path is nearly always a loser. Additionally, what it gets you (a "head-start" on the off-season) which is, I believe, your point amounts to not very much. I mean, why go through the fire drill of replacing a lame duck head coach with a lame duck interim coach? It is more likely to send the message to the players that the front office has given up on the season. And whether that is how they feel or not, I submit that there's no good reason to essentially confirm it at this point. Many things can happen that are not predictable now that could end up with this team in the playoffs. And before you spit your Irish coffee all over your computer screen, there are plenty of examples of in-season turn around teams. What if starting QB's go down in Pitt and/or Balt for example? Things look different then. What if timing really does come around and this team starts to look like the offense we all hoped for? It could happen and they could go on a run. That's more likely if they don't start a desperado firing spree. Besides, if they go looking for a head coach now, the field narrows to coaches currently on the staff. Not sure that's the way I'd want to go at this point.

Finally, while I'm pretty sure Lewis is gone, I'm not at all sure Brat's gone. It's possible and I'm sure it would be cause for a party on this board, but I haven't heard anything anywhere else leading me to believe that's a probability.

[COB]

where are all the Chad lovers today?

isn't he just the bestest?

yeah, he's so good, he doesn't need to be at OTAs and etc.

One...Note...Song.

Plenty of blame to go around for this loss.

While that's true, it's hard not to look at two game changing plays in the last two losses.

First, against the Browns, we're in position for the winning field goal, and Chad commits a blatant interference penalty that shoves us out of fg range.

Second, against the Falcons we're on what should have been the game sealing drive, and a pass to Chad bounces off him into the hands of the defense.

We built an offense around a player who isn't mentally tough enough to play at crunch time. Much has been made about our passing winning close games last year. Agreed, and the two I can think of were both passes to a rookie who caught them for game winnings tds (against the Steelers and the Ravens).

Yet we continue to throw to Chad when the game is in the balance. And we get what we deserve.

[COB]

Finally, while I'm pretty sure Lewis is gone, I'm not at all sure Brat's gone.

This is odd, because I think the opposite. Just a hunch, but I think Marvin will sign a new deal, and Brat will be gone. Just a feeling, I don't have any evidence to support it but I'm thinking Mike looks at those two Division Titles, looks at the years prior to Marvin's arrival, and gives him enough of what he wants to get him to sign.

[Sea Ray]

So the offensive rebuilding project that just cost this team it's season will continue to be under the control of a head coach who won't be here next season, and will have it's plays called by an offensive coordinator almost sure to be fired. Plus, the new passing game will continue being built around two again WR's, one of them a 40+ WR who almost certainly won't be back, and the other an underperforming douchebag who shouldn't be allowed back.

I'm not so sure that it's a done deal that Marvin, Brat and Batman & Robin will be gone. Remember this is Mike Brown we're talking about.

Mike Brown's answer to keeping Marvin is so he doesn't pay him to do nothing...purely financial. To me the reason to switch coaches is because you think you still have a shot at the playoffs. However Mike's history is to wait too long...until the playoff chances are nil. Thus now is the time to make the change and he's blowing this chance

[HairOnFire]

If I am correct in my surmise, what's the point of discussing whether a coach should be fired now or not?

It seems to me debating whether someone will be fired is a different matter altogether than debating whether they should be fired.

That said, I can answer your question with an opinion. A lame duck coach should be allowed to finish the season if the alternative - hiring or elevating an "interim" coach - is worse. I would, and will, argue that the interim coach path is nearly always a loser.

So any attempt to hold a coaching staff accountable for their failures is doomed unless conducted at the end of the season? Well that sucks. So how about s**tcanning a coordinator...or is that off the table too?

It is more likely to send the message to the players that the front office has given up on the season. And whether that is how they feel or not, I submit that there's no good reason to essentially confirm it at this point.

By the same token there's not much difference between firing a coach after week 10 than week 5. And again, there's not much incentive to continue rebuilding a new offense around coaches and players who won't be here next season.

Regardless, Bloody Monday didn't happen and probably won't. Thus, the Marvin Lewis Deathwatch now begins in earnest.

Many things can happen that are not predictable now that could end up with this team in the playoffs.

Congrats. Despite many decades of trying I've rarely been as high as you now seem to be.

[BengalByTheBay]

where are all the Chad lovers today?

isn't he just the bestest?

yeah, he's so good, he doesn't need to be at OTAs and etc.

One...Note...Song.

Plenty of blame to go around for this loss.

While that's true, it's hard not to look at two game changing plays in the last two losses.

First, against the Browns, we're in position for the winning field goal, and Chad commits a blatant interference penalty that shoves us out of fg range.

Second, against the Falcons we're on what should have been the game sealing drive, and a pass to Chad bounces off him into the hands of the defense.

We built an offense around a player who isn't mentally tough enough to play at crunch time. Much has been made about our passing winning close games last year. Agreed, and the two I can think of were both passes to a rookie who caught them for game winnings tds (against the Steelers and the Ravens).

Yet we continue to throw to Chad when the game is in the balance. And we get what we deserve.

Far from being a Chad apologist, I still have to try to be somewhat objective. So, here goes - first, the offensive PI call on Chad vs. the Browns was far from "blatant" in my opinion. It looked to me like he was doing anything possible to get to the ball when Carson held it (once again) far too long on a roll out. Those types of jersey pulls go on all the time on both sides of the ball. Sometimes they're called sometimes not. Hell, sometimes they're not called and go for TD's. Second I missed the Falcons game somehow. Vs. the Buc's, however, I believe the last int. was targeting TO. I could be wrong, but that's how I recalled it. It was, however, a poor throw that had little to no chance of being caught. That said, Chad and TO both had significant drops, which goes to my point that the loss was truly a team effort. Plenty of blame to go around. Calling out Chad is simply a further grinding of previously ground axes and, again, I'll call that as I see it.

[BengalByTheBay]

Many things can happen that are not predictable now that could end up with this team in the playoffs.

Congrats. Despite many decades of trying I've rarely been as high as you now seem to be.

In search of a clever retort, you just end up bleating. The Bengals are 2-3. Sure, that looks like crap, but I'll stick with my suggestion that it's possible they could make the playoffs. It's not like 2-10 or anything. But, yes, you can go with hysteria if you wish and continue to beat the "fire everybody" drum to your heart's content knowing, as you clearly do, that will not occur. And what's the point of that? You tell me. Empty exercise? Putting the front office in it's place from your lofty position atop the message board? Getting to say that you called disaster before anybody else in week 4? Congrats....

[HairOnFire]

In search of a clever retort, you just end up bleating.

That seems rather fitting when dealing with sheep.

The Bengals are 2-3. Sure, that looks like crap, but I'll stick with my suggestion that it's possible they could make the playoffs.

Don't hide behind what's possible. You either think they're done or you don't and if you don't then your answer to alot of questions are going to be made for you without any thought process whatsoever. In fact, they all fall under the heading of continuing to do things that have failed precisely because inertia is such a powerful force and change may be more difficult.

But, yes, you can go with hysteria if you wish and continue to beat the "fire everybody" drum to your heart's content knowing, as you clearly do, that will not occur.

Since when is advocating leaders be held accountable for their failures considered an act of hysteria? Coaches get fired. Messages get sent. And players sometimes get traded in exchange for nothing from successful franchise.

And what's the point of that? You tell me. Empty exercise? Putting the front office in it's place from your lofty position atop the message board?

People express their empty opinions here all the time. Others, like you apparently, seem content to withhold your true opinions and will comment only on what you think will be done, leaving others to opine what should have been done. Frankly, both seem like empty excercises to me, but one is fuller and more honest while the other takes an unusual amount of pride in what it doesn't say. I'll let you decide which is which.

Getting to say that you called disaster before anybody else in week 4? Congrats....

Thanks, but the honor is small enough that I won't boast much. Suffice to say I'm just thankful I wasn't one of the sheep who spent their time ignoring what was right before their eyes. Because that would be embarrassing, right?

[BengalByTheBay]

And what's the point of that? You tell me. Empty exercise? Putting the front office in it's place from your lofty position atop the message board?

People express their empty opinions here all the time. Others, like you apparently, seem content to withhold your true opinions and will comment only on what you think will be done, leaving others to opine what should have been done. Frankly, both seem like empty excercises to me, but one is fuller and more honest while the other takes an unusual amount of pride in what it doesn't say. I'll let you decide which is which.

Did you even read what I wrote? I offered my opinion that firing a coach mid-season does more harm than good. It's all right here:

"That said, I can answer your question with an opinion. A lame duck coach should be allowed to finish the season if the alternative - hiring or elevating an "interim" coach - is worse. I would, and will, argue that the interim coach path is nearly always a loser. Additionally, what it gets you (a "head-start" on the off-season) which is, I believe, your point amounts to not very much. I mean, why go through the fire drill of replacing a lame duck head coach with a lame duck interim coach? It is more likely to send the message to the players that the front office has given up on the season. And whether that is how they feel or not, I submit that there's no good reason to essentially confirm it at this point."

It should at least look familiar because you quoted what immediately followed. If this is how I "withhold my opinion" then I must not be very good at it. And, yes, I fully expect you to pull out a quote of the end of the last sentence with some ridiculous comment about how I admitted you're a freaking genius and I'm stupid. Go ahead, child.

[BengalByTheBay]

The Bengals are 2-3. Sure, that looks like crap, but I'll stick with my suggestion that it's possible they could make the playoffs.

Don't hide behind what's possible. You either think they're done or you don't and if you don't then your answer to alot of questions are going to be made for you without any thought process whatsoever. In fact, they all fall under the heading of continuing to do things that have failed precisely because inertia is such a powerful force and change may be more difficult.

Is this thread now transformed into "predict whether the Bengals make the playoffs" because you decided it should be? If they make the playoffs when I predicted it what do I win? That's right nothing. If you notice, I don't post in the prediction posts or polls because ... even if I'm right it only amounts to, at most, bragging rights on a message board. While that's clearly a goal of yours, I'm not interested.

[HairOnFire]

Did you even read what I wrote?

Sure did. How else would I know that your response all but ignored the question of why Lewis should be allowed to coach out the season? Rather, you focused on how often interim coaches fail when hired by other teams, an answer that conveniently ignores the makeup of this team as well as Lewis's direct responsibility in a failure that has all but ended the Bengals season after just 5 games. So just as I claimed you all but ignored the question and everything that relates to this teams save for one single thing. That being, you don't think the owner will act, and you don't think he should....because interim coaching hires often fail. But of course, how could anything else be true given the circumstances interim coaches are hired under?

And, yes, I fully expect you to pull out a quote of the end of the last sentence with some ridiculous comment about how I admitted you're a freaking genius and I'm stupid. Go ahead, child.

Actually, I don't think you're stupid. Rather, you're just a guy who seems remarkably pissed off at me because I consider the coaching failures that have cost this team it's season are so great that they merit firing. And you then respond by claiming it's all a bunch hysterics and nobody needs to be fired precisely because nobody will be fired.

[BengalByTheBay]

And you then respond by claiming it's all a bunch hysterics and nobody needs to be fired precisely because nobody will be fired.

Wrong. You continue to ignore my opinion simply because you disagree with it. In contrast, I understand your position and disagree with it, but I'm not pretending it doesn't exist. To clarify, I believe your cure is worse than the disease and is motivated by emotion and frustration rather than rational thought. I suppose it makes sense if you believe the season is completely over and you want to see a lot of sound & fury, but not accomplish anything. It's a classic fan reaction, like always calling for the backup QB. I just don't think it's the right call. Who do you suggest to fill the HC role - Zimmer? If so, who calls the defense? If not him, who?

[HairOnFire]

Is this thread now transformed into "predict whether the Bengals make the playoffs" because you decided it should be?

No, it's a thread where people give fresh opinions based upon their previously offered opinions. Or in your case it's a thread where you don't give opinions while hiding behind empty statements about what's still possible, but remarkably unlikely.

If they make the playoffs when I predicted it what do I win?

The respect of posters like Dimster. And me too if it happens. But of course for that to happen you'll actually have to make a case for it and then stand behind it...rather than simply mewing something about it being possible.

If you notice, I don't post in the prediction posts or polls because ... even if I'm right it only amounts to, at most, bragging rights on a message board. While that's clearly a goal of yours, I'm not interested.

I'm less interested in bragging rights on a message board than having an open and HONEST conversation about the Bengals with others. And to that end I've spent the better part of a month or two trying to convince most of you that a tremendous and needless risk was being taken. In response I got a months worth of crap stats, more excuses than I can count, and an endless stream of insults about how I was grasping at straws, being overly dramatic, and seeing things that weren't happening. And now I'm being hysterical....according to you.

Bottom Line: It's not about bragging rights...it's about being right, and if you're so unconcerned with that sort of thing then I have to wonder why you're here at all OR why anyone would care if you weren't.

[HairOnFire]

Wrong. You continue to ignore my opinion simply because you disagree with it.

Yeah, I disagree with the idea that firing the coaching staff is off the table because interim coaching hires rarely work. The success rate of interim coaches will always be dismal precisely because interim coaches are almost always hired under the worst circumstances available. But that's no valid reason for doing nothing, especially when retaining the coaching staff is so unlikely to produce the results you previously desired. And it's even more true when the coaches to be retained are so unlikely to be on this team next season under either scenario.

To clarify, I believe your cure is worse than the disease and is motivated by emotion and frustration rather than rational thought.

I stand before you guilty as charged. That said, you're not offering a cure, are you? In fact, would retaining this coaching staff for the next 11 games change their final fate in any meaningful way? Won't Lewis be allowed to walk away at seasons end? And isn't any replacement likely to demand Bob Bratkowski do the same?

Who do you suggest to fill the HC role - Zimmer?

Ditka.

[BengalByTheBay]

I'm less interested in bragging rights on a message board than having an open and HONEST conversation about the Bengals with others. And to that end I've spent the better part of a month or two trying to convince most of you that a tremendous and needless risk was being taken. In response I got a months worth of crap stats, more excuses than I can count, and an endless stream of insults about how I was grasping at straws, being overly dramatic, and seeing things that weren't happening. And now I'm being hysterical....according to you.

Bottom Line: It's not about bragging rights...it's about being right, and if you're so unconcerned with that sort of thing then I have to wonder why you're here at all OR why anyone would care if you weren't.

"It's not about bragging rights...it's about being right". So, you're bragging about being right, but not interested in bragging rights. Uh huh.

And all this because I'm not rising to your bait of predicting the rest of the season? So, tough guy, is it your bold prediction that the Bengals won't make the playoffs? That's a bold statement relative to a 2-3 team. Props. Or is it something more touchy-feely, like there's going to be a "meltdown." Pretty much what you've said is they should run instead of passing and, from what I see, that's hardly an unpopular opinion. With few exceptions, I think most agreed that the "Batman & Robin" thing was pretty lame before the season even started. I was certainly no fan of the aerial circus that wasn't. But, again, we differ on what to do about it. So, exactly what is it that you are being right about if you agree with me that the HC won't be fired? You're saying fire everybody and things will be better, right? If you're certain they won't do that, how could you ever be wrong or right?

[BengalByTheBay]

To clarify, I believe your cure is worse than the disease and is motivated by emotion and frustration rather than rational thought.

I stand before you guilty as charged. That said, you're not offering a cure, are you? In fact, would retaining this coaching staff for the next 11 games change their final fate in any meaningful way? Won't Lewis be allowed to walk away at seasons end? And isn't any replacement likely to demand Bob Bratkowski do the same?

Who do you suggest to fill the HC role - Zimmer?

Ditka.

You're conspicuously silent about what GOOD it would do, however. If an interim coach is going to lose and and an incumbent coach is going to lose, isn't the real questions whether you gain anything by the change? The only way, IMO you gain anything by hiring an incumbent is if you think he may stay and you're getting a "head start" on next season. That's legit, but you have to agree that hiring a coach outside the organization that is both available and interested in taking over a team right now - limits your options considerably. After all, it sounds like we agree that an interim coach is generally taking on a losing proposition and it's difficult to get top talent under those circumstances, at least from the outside. So, the main reason to wait is to not sink the season too early and give yourself time for a deliberate hiring rather than a desperate, rushed choice from a limited pool of candidates.

[HairOnFire]

So, you're bragging about being right, but not interested in bragging rights. Uh huh.

It may help to think of it this way. Right now I'm bragging about being right because so many of you wouldn't even acknowledge what was happening infront of you for months. And because we spent so much time debating whther something was really happening or not we spent less time debating what it really meant and what was being risked. And of course now it's too late to matter so many of you still refuse to acknowledge what happened and why. As for you personally, you're always above it all, and for that I thank you.

So, tough guy, is it your bold prediction that the Bengals won't make the playoffs? That's a bold statement relative to a 2-3 team. Props.

So you're the tougher guy because you're currently hiding behind empty claims about how everything and anything is still possible and how this still might work out if Pittsburgh and Baltimores starting QB's die in boating accidents?

Or is it something more touchy-feely, like there's going to be a "meltdown."

When your team is out of it after just 5 games it may be more accurate to say the meltdown has already occured.

I was certainly no fan of the aerial circus that wasn't. But, again, we differ on what to do about it.

Like I said in an earlier post, I doubt anyone gives me any further argument on that particular subject matter. Granted, lost causes like Hoosier will still try, but his opinion no longer counts now that I've granted him alcoholic amnesty. The rest of us move on. Or rather, we'll attempt to move on next season after playing out as string of 11 suddenly meaningless games.

You're saying fire everybody and things will be better, right?

Not at all. I'm saying fire everybody and things will be different.

And that's enough.

[HairOnFire]

You're conspicuously silent about what GOOD it would do, however. If an interim coach is going to lose and and an incumbent coach is going to lose, isn't the real questions whether you gain anything by the change?

First, who says the interim coach is doomed to lose?

Second, you absolutely have to make a change if you believe the head coach has lost the team. And that's because there's nothing to build upon once guys stop buying in and start tuning out. And there's the rub because there's ample evidence of players, especially on offense, not buying in. And that points directly to Bratkowski. So fire Brat, right? But because Marvin has repeatedly shown his support for Bratkowski's horrific Error Bengal passing attack I believe he deserves to fired just as much as Bratkowski does. In fact, after losing a game he called a must win Marvin placed the blame squarely upon himself. Who am I to argue?

The only way, IMO you gain anything by hiring an incumbent is if you think he may stay and you're getting a "head start" on next season.

Shades of Bruce Coslet.

That's legit, but you have to agree that hiring a coach outside the organization that is both available and interested in taking over a team right now - limits your options considerably.

How can you argue that it's self-limiting when the very thing you insist upon dictates that absolutely nothing can be considered until after the season? Haven't you just self-limited yourself into complete inaction?

[BengalByTheBay]

That's legit, but you have to agree that hiring a coach outside the organization that is both available and interested in taking over a team right now - limits your options considerably.

How can you argue that it's self-limiting when the very thing you insist upon dictates that absolutely nothing can be considered until after the season? Haven't you just self-limited yourself into complete inaction?

What in the world does that mean? (Is the bud kicking in?) I haven't limited anything, it's the situation that limits it. If you want to hire a coach right now you couldn't possibly, for example, hire a currently-employed coach that you might consider that will be let go at the end of the season. That is a built-in limitation to YOUR plan, not mine. The question is who you hire if you hire an interim coach. So far, you have Ditka and Coslett the second. I don't see any serious candidates suggested by you. So, why don't you tell me who is better than Marvin and we'll start the consideration of your demand for an new coach there instead of me guessing who you want.

[BengalByTheBay]

You're saying fire everybody and things will be better, right?

Not at all. I'm saying fire everybody and things will be different.

And that's enough.

Your vote in favor of a meaningless fire drill is duly noted. In a world where being different and worse is preferred over being the same and better you are a true opinion leader. I don't live in that world, however. Winning football games matters, even if it's only the difference of one game in a season. That's my take on it.

[HairOnFire]

What in the world does that mean? (Is the bud kicking in?)

Is your supply of oxygen so starved that parts of your tragically normal brain have died? It seems so.

I haven't limited anything, it's the situation that limits it.

You're claiming the decision to hire an interim coach is off the table because it never works, but in reality it has before and will again. In fact, it's worked in the past for this team and this owner, right? So your refusal to even consider that option is far more self-limiting than one that considers all options.

If you want to hire a coach right now you couldn't possibly, for example, hire a currently-employed coach that you might consider that will be let go at the end of the season. That is a built-in limitation to YOUR plan, not mine.

FWIW the guy calling last weeks Bengal game is an unemployed NFL head coach with a Super Bowl championship on his resume. Funnier still, he's not the only head coaching candidate available who can claim that.

Of course waiting until seasons end allows a team to hire from a bigger pool of candidates, but that only serves to underscore what I've already pointed out. That in the end you're still changing coaches, and haven't really accomplished anything other than delaying progress for a few months.

The question is who you hire if you hire an interim coach. So far, you have Ditka and Coslett the second.

Ditka was a joke, as shown by not one, and not two, but three LMAO smilies. And Coslet with a single T was mentioned only as proof of an interim hire working for this team and this owner. Argue that he shouldn't have been given the job long-term if you want because that's besides the point. And that's true because Coslet actually managed to do what you claim can't be done. Specifically, he turned a loser into a winner immediately just by changing the teams identity.

I don't see any serious candidates suggested by you.

That's because you're still self-limiting the conversation by refusing to consider the option of an interim hire, a fairly common practice in all sports, but one that you claim is off the table because you say so.