Why I have such harsh words about Palmer

[BengalNation1281]

I guess that I should have laid out my reasoning after making my statements, since it appears that there are more CP fans around here than I would have expected.

So here goes:

1. Carson Palmer had three average years and one spectacular year, and when he came out he was hailed as the "next big thing." When I saw his hype and then actually watched him play, I was struck by the feeling that this guy would be the next Ryan Leaf, if not with the locker room dissidence then with the hype that turned out to be nothing ( and as many of you remember, Leaf was a QB with mediocre credentials before his breakout season). He did nothing to impress me, and he won the Heisman in a year that was a fairly weak Heisman year. I never understood the hype, and I still don't now.

2. If Kitna was good because of the weapons around him, did Carson Palmer not have an outstanding receiving corps at USC? I could have sworn that he did.

3. Not only did we not need to take a QB at #1, he was the second-best QB that could have been taken. If we needed a QB so bad, why did we pass up Leftwich, a perfect example of the new breed of NFL QBs and a player who many are saying is going to be one of the best QBs in the NFL in the next few years? I know that this isn't really his fault, but I don't understand it.

4. Jon Kitna, for all his faults, had an outstanding year and was a Pro Bowl alternate, and in the 2002 season he was one of the very few bright spots on a dismal team. Yes, he is my favorite player because of what he did for the Bengals, and yes, I have strong opinions about his playing ability, but HE DID NOT DESERVE TO GET BENCHED FOR A PLAYER WITH NO EXPERIENCE AFTER THE SEASON THAT HE HAD! Kitna earned his spot, Palmer got it by default. Management does not want a player who they are giving big money to riding the bench, and that is the lone reason that Palmer is the starter.

These are my main reasons for feeling the way that I do. To think that I want Palmer to fail is ridiculous, since his success will be beneficial to the team and I want the Bengals in the playoffs this year, but it doesn't mean that I have to root for him. I have stood by the Bengals since I became a fan in 1994, so I have been a fan through some really awful times and will continue to be a fan until the day that I die, so my loyalty to the team has nothing to do with my ill feelings about Palmer. I wish that Kitna would get the spot back, I don't think that Palmer should have gotten it, I never thought Palmer was worth the #1 pick that they used on him, and that is how I feel. I will be truly impressed if he changes my mind, and I will recant my feelings on here for all of you to see.

I am sure you will find reasons to disagree with me, and I welcome your opinions. Hopefully there are some who will agree with me, if only somewhat.

But now you know. And knowing is half the battle...

BN1281

P.S. I do not go to Kitna's church. Just wanted to make that known.

[BengalNation1281]

I am dust for tonight, so I will read your responses tomorrow.

happy posting!

BN1281

[kevnz]

Oh please. How many times do we have to have this discussion? Why don't you just read past posts, we've already covered this ground like a thousand times.

[jditty47]

man...your points are well thought out but down right depressing and pessimistic if i must say so. My only point that i will make is that every bengal fan thinks about the worst and worries about it often, we have gone through it year after year after year for over a decade now. Its expected to think like that. I for one though, dismiss that notion every time it comes to me. I always think and believe positive with the bengals...i dunno im superstitious/optimistic in that aspect i guess.

There must have been a reason why we drafted this guy first pick overall and had not a single doubt about it. We even signed him before the draft even took place. Id say thats pretty damn confident. Dont give yourself reasons to doubt him until he gives a reason for you.

Kitna had a great year, a damn fine year. A year that i loved, and was ecstatic about the drama of the season unfolding and the chiefs victory was the best victory i have seen in a long, long time. But when reality knocks on my door, it tells me we were 8-8. Not in the playoffs. And not in the superbowl. Kitna peeked at 8-8, he played perfectly and could only muster that record. I do not think he has the talent, arm, and ability to take us to the promise land. At least on paper the surfer boy can. Now lets see if what we see on paper is what is realistic. Go Bengals 04!

[CTBengalsFan]

kitna has half the arm carson has, plus 1/7th of the salary

but kitna underthrew a lot of passes last year, take the one that bounced off the stupid ratbird's head, right into chad's hands. chad had like 3 steps on him and kitna recognized it and threw but he simply didn't have the arm to reach. happened with warrick's td pass in the kc game, and countless other times throughout the season.

not to mention, who says kitna will have another good season? could have been a fluke, who knows? just like you said about carson he had a lot of mediocre seasons then 1 break out one. that doesn't prove anything.

just accept the fact that carson is the guy. i'm glad they decided to put him in sooner rather than later because they'd just be delaying the inevitable.

[schweinhart]

i'm glad they decided to put him in sooner rather than later because they'd just be delaying the inevitable.

I'd like to see the inevitable delayed no further than the opener. Come out gunslinging against a Jets D in limbo and let the man throw 30 times just to get him acclimated early.

We got a good shot to beat the Jets regardless of the O game plan. Against the other beasts from the easts, we'll have to rely more heavily on Palmer. The sooner he's got the feel he needs, the better.

[KitnasBengals]

I don't understand people like you jditty, who keep saying we were 8-8 when Kitna was at his peak. Then turn around and say all we need to do is improve our defense and we'll be set. That our offense was fine. Kitna took every snap for the offense the whole year, he wasn't the one who let Lee Suggs run over the Bengals in the final game of the year either, despite his poor play in that game it went both ways.

Sure, there were situations where Kitna choked, but that is where the defense should clamp down on the other team and allow them to come back, or at least have a chance.

Kitna isn't Favre, and unless you expect Palmer to be then he wouldn't have done any better than Kitna had done in those situations.

Hype is worthless, "Potential is nothing, results are everything", Parcells said that and I would agree. Kitna showed he could lead the team, and with a good defense is it hard to imagine the Bengals 10-6 or 11-5? They were two games out of it last year and it wasn't because of Kitna.

People also seem to remember Kitna at his worst, underthrowing passes and such. Not to mention untimely interceptions. You can't possibly tell me Carson will be better, no quarterback can avoid those things. Why do people want a perfect quarterback? Peyton Manning choked big in the playoffs, Mcnair played terrible and Favre threw up a lame duck that ended the Packer's last drive of the season. So even the richest and probably the best quarterback in league right now, the co-mvp and one of the game's greatest all did the things that Kitna did last year and at worse times.

Oh, I forgot, Palmer is the next Joe Montana

You can tell I'm a Kitna fan obviously, but I'll be the first to not complain if Palmer plays well, but this is how I feel now :player:

[BengalPappaw]

I guess that I should have laid out my reasoning after making my statements, since it appears that there are more CP fans around here than I would have expected.

So here goes:

1. Carson Palmer had three average years and one spectacular year, and when he came out he was hailed as the "next big thing." When I saw his hype and then actually watched him play, I was struck by the feeling that this guy would be the next Ryan Leaf, if not with the locker room dissidence then with the hype that turned out to be nothing ( and as many of you remember, Leaf was a QB with mediocre credentials before his breakout season). He did nothing to impress me, and he won the Heisman in a year that was a fairly weak Heisman year. I never understood the hype, and I still don't now.

2. If Kitna was good because of the weapons around him, did Carson Palmer not have an outstanding receiving corps at USC? I could have sworn that he did.

3. Not only did we not need to take a QB at #1, he was the second-best QB that could have been taken. If we needed a QB so bad, why did we pass up Leftwich, a perfect example of the new breed of NFL QBs and a player who many are saying is going to be one of the best QBs in the NFL in the next few years? I know that this isn't really his fault, but I don't understand it.

4. Jon Kitna, for all his faults, had an outstanding year and was a Pro Bowl alternate, and in the 2002 season he was one of the very few bright spots on a dismal team. Yes, he is my favorite player because of what he did for the Bengals, and yes, I have strong opinions about his playing ability, but HE DID NOT DESERVE TO GET BENCHED FOR A PLAYER WITH NO EXPERIENCE AFTER THE SEASON THAT HE HAD! Kitna earned his spot, Palmer got it by default. Management does not want a player who they are giving big money to riding the bench, and that is the lone reason that Palmer is the starter.

These are my main reasons for feeling the way that I do. To think that I want Palmer to fail is ridiculous, since his success will be beneficial to the team and I want the Bengals in the playoffs this year, but it doesn't mean that I have to root for him. I have stood by the Bengals since I became a fan in 1994, so I have been a fan through some really awful times and will continue to be a fan until the day that I die, so my loyalty to the team has nothing to do with my ill feelings about Palmer. I wish that Kitna would get the spot back, I don't think that Palmer should have gotten it, I never thought Palmer was worth the #1 pick that they used on him, and that is how I feel. I will be truly impressed if he changes my mind, and I will recant my feelings on here for all of you to see.

I am sure you will find reasons to disagree with me, and I welcome your opinions. Hopefully there are some who will agree with me, if only somewhat.

But now you know. And knowing is half the battle...

BN1281

P.S. I do not go to Kitna's church. Just wanted to make that known.

[BengalPappaw]

When you said you watched Carson Palmer play at USC, you must not have paid much attention to his progress. I have video tapes of Carson junior and senior games. The improvement was spectacular! It appears that once he knows and understands the system, he can make the right decisions and throws. I believe that after an adjustment period of, maybe, two or three games, Carson Palmer will be better than Kitna. [Go back and look at Kitna's first three games last year. He struggles and made both terrible decisions and throw.] So give Carson a chance to show what he can do. :player:

[HoosierCat]

Oh please. How many times do we have to have this discussion? Why don't you just read past posts, we've already covered this ground like a thousand times.

Amen.

[Kirkendall]

Oh please. How many times do we have to have this discussion? Why don't you just read past posts, we've already covered this ground like a thousand times.

Yea, we have, but now we have new members that take the Kitna side. Before, I was the only one defending Kitna and you all were on my ass for a month!

Everyone makes great points here and I don't think one can convince the other because we are comparing a guy that had a spectacular year and a guy with tremendous potential; it's a dangerous topic to start with.

I just wish when people would say Kitna had a career year and could only muster an 8-8 record would look at all the issues of why that record happened; it's way too easy to blame him. How can you fault a guy that was 3rd in the NFL in touchdown passes?

Jon isn't the only Bengal on the team. I can remember countless times Rudi was tripped up at the line that my 4-year cousin could run through for a key short 3rd down conversion. I remember Brian Simmons over persuing and missing tackles that led to touchdowns. I remember the defensive line having all sorts of trouble clogging holes allowing opposing rushers to gain 6-7 yards a carry, or the inability to establish any legit or consistancy when they go goalline situations. I remember Brat would call for just 4 run plays in the second half even though Arizona had 7-8 guys always in coverage.

[skyline]

Oh please. How many times do we have to have this discussion? Why don't you just read past posts, we've already covered this ground like a thousand times. 

Yea, we have, but now we have new members that take the Kitna side. Before, I was the only one defending Kitna and you all were on my ass for a month!

Everyone makes great points here and I don't think one can convince the other because we are comparing a guy that had a spectacular year and a guy with tremendous potential; it's a dangerous topic to start with.

I just wish when people would say Kitna had a career year and could only muster an 8-8 record would look at all the issues of why that record happened; it's way too easy to blame him. How can you fault a guy that was 3rd in the NFL in touchdown passes?

Jon isn't the only Bengal on the team. I can remember countless times Rudi was tripped up at the line that my 4-year cousin could run through for a key short 3rd down conversion. I remember Brian Simmons over persuing and missing tackles that led to touchdowns. I remember the defensive line having all sorts of trouble clogging holes allowing opposing rushers to gain 6-7 yards a carry, or the inability to establish any legit or consistancy when they go goalline situations. I remember Brat would call for just 4 run plays in the second half even though Arizona had 7-8 guys always in coverage.

I agree that the argument of kitna having a career year and olny going 8-8 is trash. It's hard to win games when your defense gives up 30+ points, etc...

[brian5562]

How many times does it have to be pointed out that Palmer played in 3 different systems at USC. It wasn't until he had some time with Chow as the OC that he played to his potential. He has a year plus of learning the system so now it is just a matter of him combining his knowledge with his physical gifts and we will have our best QB since ole'#7(not Klinger). I loved the way Kitna played last year and he was part of what helped this team turn around. At the same time he was limited and if you can upgrade you do. His pass at the end of the half against St.Louis sticks out in my mind if he had the arm to hit CJ in stride we might have pulled off the upset. Also Carson will make mistakes, but in game 16 last year our Veteran QB doesn't know to throw the ball away and gets sacked and we loose a scoring oppurtunity so much for experience.

[BengalszoneBilly]

How many times does it have to be pointed out that Palmer played in 3 different systems at USC. It wasn't until he had some time with Chow as the OC that he played to his potential

Also Carson will make mistakes, but in game 16 last year our Veteran QB doesn't know to throw the ball away and gets sacked and we loose a scoring oppurtunity so much for experience.

It'll have to be pointed out repeatedly due to the skulls around here sometimes are as thick as our skins are from years of abuse! They're just in denial Brian.

And your statement about Kitna not throwing the ball away when he had plenty of time to do so was right on the money. I can't begin to count the times when I stood in front of the TV last season screaming at that lunk head to get rid of the ball!! There's no argument he took far more sacks than he should have due to his indecision. Kitna never impressed me as being overly quick witted. Adequate at BEST sums up his career.

He's always be best in a back-up role. I realize that, you realize that, and Marvin Lewis realizes that, and he's the pro here!

[richmond_mat]

Oh please. How many times do we have to have this discussion? Why don't you just read past posts, we've already covered this ground like a thousand times. 

Yea, we have, but now we have new members that take the Kitna side. Before, I was the only one defending Kitna and you all were on my ass for a month!

I think myself, halp and others have been on the kitna side of this.

Dollars dictated this decision which is not necessarily a good thing.

[KitnasBengals]

I don't think leading the Seahawks to the NFC Championship game and being named the comback player of the year is very adequate or ordinary.

[HoosierCat]

It'll have to be pointed out repeatedly due to the skulls around here sometimes are as thick as our skins are from years of abuse!

Yup. Just like it will have to be pointed out repeatedly that it was the offense, not the defense, that was largely responsible for both our wins and losses last year (go compare points allowed and scored in our wins versus those allowed and scored in our losses).

Just like it will have to be pointed out repeatedly that before last year's 8-8 "Pro Bowl alternate" season, Kitna's record as the Bengals' starting QB was an impressive (not) 8-20. (And after last year he's a mighty 16-28! Woo-hoo.)

Just like it will have to be pointed out repeatedly that had Kitna was the starting QB for most of our dreadful 2-14 season, which led directly to the drafting of Palmer, so if you want to parcel out blame for that draft selection, he gets some, too.

Just like it will have to be pointed out repeatedly that Kitna had one good year back with the 'Hags, too -- after which he promptly went to s**t again. (And any assertion that he's likely to do so again is at least as justified as any assertion the untested Palmer will fail. Don't make me bring up Vick, Pennington, Green et. al. again.)

Just like it will have to be pointed out repeatedly that Kitna's career TD/INT ratio is virtually 1:1 and he has a stunningly mediocre 76 career rating (and that's rounding up!).

When they signed Kitna three years ago, I applauded. When LeBeau effed the QB spot up two years ago, I screamed in support of Kitna. When he was winning -- and losing -- last year while Palmer learned, I cheered him on. But from the moment the clock ran out on game 16 it was over, and everyone including Kitna knew it. If life were anything approaching fair, some team like SD would have offered us a pick in trade for his services as starting QB, and despite the risks I would have been glad to see him go to start elsewhere. But his time in Cincy is done.

Don't believe the BS on Bengals.com. Palmer will only get pulled if someone prys him from Marvin's cold, dead hands. There will be no Couch/Holcomb-type crap in Cincy. Whether you're a raving Kitnoid or a frothing Carsoniac, the bottom line is that a Palmer implosion means this team isn't going to sniff the playoffs for five years, Kitna or no Kitna, because of the salary cap drag of yet another first round draft pick bust.

Fortunately -- 2004 prediction No. 2 coming up -- that's not going to happen. Palmer's the man.

[Barbarian]

How many times does it have to be pointed out that Palmer played in 3 different systems at USC. It wasn't until he had some time with Chow as the OC that he played to his potential. He has a year plus of learning the system so now it is just a matter of him combining his knowledge with his physical gifts and we will have our best QB since ole'#7(not Klinger). I loved the way Kitna played last year and he was part of what helped this team turn around. At the same time he was limited and if you can upgrade you do. His pass at the end of the half against St.Louis sticks out in my mind if he had the arm to hit CJ in stride we might have pulled off the upset. Also Carson will make mistakes, but in game 16 last year our Veteran QB doesn't know to throw the ball away and gets sacked and we loose a scoring oppurtunity so much for experience.

Ok. Good point. Palmer played in >= 3 Offensive Systems while at USC.

However, how many times have you seen the NFL change systems??? I have a friend that uses Kordella Stewart as an example (I think it's a horrible example--but he's a f**king Squeeler's Fan). Kordella was in 3 different systems at least and now we know the outcome of this.

My point is--how many times do you see changes happen in the NFL??? Many, many times. Offensive Coordinators come and go with the change of the wind. Obviously, Palmer is SLOW to adapt.

This could mean trouble for our novice QB.

The post that started this thread--I've made this point before. So has many others that post here. This is a repeat.

[halp]

bust my balls all you want kitna is a LEADER and a WINNER. look past the teams record. better defense and we make the playoffs last year by WINNING the DIVISION. now to palmer. this kid is the REAL DEAL. barb and others, yes there will be bumps in the road (actually his body), but even as a KITNA beliver and fan, we must introduce palmer to the big time this year. it's like elway's days in denver, jone's days as a b. colt. i understand everyone's guarded position. it's going to have it's ups and downs, but in the END it is the right thing to do. and thank GOD Kitna is still here!!!

[BadLuck]

What do you want from the guy?

He's got EVERYTHING a top NFL QB needs.

Arm, accuracy, smarts, read coverage, scramble, composure, leadership and the respect of the team.

On top of that, he's got a great O-Line, great WRs, an at least reliable RB and a good set of TEs...

Plus a wonderful head coach, a great mentor and the will and motivation to become the greatest QB to ever play the game.

THAT may not happen, but there's no reason to believe he won't be good. Remember how the season ended for Kitna? I love Kitna and I think he's a good QB, but it was his lousy, inconsistant play at the end of the season that made us need a guy like Carson.

We need a guy who can bomb it for 60 yards... we need a guy that can throw lasers while being chased by a DE... we need a guy that can exploit the talents of our receivers. We need a guy that has the body to shed tacklers.

Kitna is none of these things. He's good, but he'll never be great. Not conistantly. Carson can. And by starting him this season, he's on his way to becoming just that.

[BengalNation1281]

I am sorry if the Palmer argument is old news and has been done before...I just got here a few days ago, and I made some comments that needed to be explained, so if you don't want to read wht we have to say or are sick of the argument then DON'T LOOK AT THE FREAKING THREAD AND STOP WASTING OUR TIME!

I am glad that I can look at both sides of the argument in a way that I haven't been able to before, mostly because none of my friends are Bengals fans. Like I said before, I want the Bengals to win, and if Palmer can do it then more power to him. I'm just not a palmer fan, and maybe he will be abel to make me one...I sincerely hope that he can.

[Spain21]

OK Ill fifnish this for you guys, Kitna is maxed, he will not get better , he has acheived all he can with smarts and hustle! He still has those small fumbling hands and that noodle arm. He has impressed with his ability to acheive in a system but he will not win the big one unless we have a superbowl defense ala Johnson in Tampa Bay are Delahome in Carolina. Palmer has all the tools but is unproven, he has been brought in perfect circumstances and we can always give him the hook if he sucks, but Marvin has bet the franchise on this guy and are sorry ass sundays are in his hands! Because bengaldom we aint got no D!

[Barbarian]

What do you want from the guy?

He's got EVERYTHING a top NFL QB needs.

Arm, accuracy, smarts, read coverage, scramble, composure, leadership and the respect of the team.

On top of that, he's got a great O-Line, great WRs, an at least reliable RB and a good set of TEs...

Plus a wonderful head coach, a great mentor and the will and motivation to become the greatest QB to ever play the game.

THAT may not happen, but there's no reason to believe he won't be good. Remember how the season ended for Kitna? I love Kitna and I think he's a good QB, but it was his lousy, inconsistant play at the end of the season that made us need a guy like Carson.

We need a guy who can bomb it for 60 yards... we need a guy that can throw lasers while being chased by a DE... we need a guy that can exploit the talents of our receivers. We need a guy that has the body to shed tacklers.

Kitna is none of these things. He's good, but he'll never be great. Not conistantly. Carson can. And by starting him this season, he's on his way to becoming just that.

Ok--this 65-yard bomb thing has me wondering:

HOW ACCURATE IS THE KID???

Mike Vick can throw the rock 70 yards--but what is his completion percentage??? Around 50-55% of the time. NOT GOOD!!!

Sure, he can air it out--but how accurate is he going to be??? Any meathead can throw a rock 60 yards--but probably not very precise.

And was it worth taking out INTna who took the team from 2 wins to 8 in one year?!?!?!?!

hmmmmmmmmmm......

[HoosierCat]

Mike Vick can throw the rock 70 yards--but what is his completion percentage??? Around 50-55% of the time. NOT GOOD!!!

Kitna's career percentage is around 58, IIRC. If 50-55 is "not good," how much of an improvement is 58?

[skyline]

What do you want from the guy?

He's got EVERYTHING a top NFL QB needs.

Arm, accuracy, smarts, read coverage, scramble, composure, leadership and the respect of the team.

On top of that, he's got a great O-Line, great WRs, an at least reliable RB and a good set of TEs...

Plus a wonderful head coach, a great mentor and the will and motivation to become the greatest QB to ever play the game.

THAT may not happen, but there's no reason to believe he won't be good. Remember how the season ended for Kitna? I love Kitna and I think he's a good QB, but it was his lousy, inconsistant play at the end of the season that made us need a guy like Carson.

We need a guy who can bomb it for 60 yards... we need a guy that can throw lasers while being chased by a DE... we need a guy that can exploit the talents of our receivers. We need a guy that has the body to shed tacklers.

Kitna is none of these things. He's good, but he'll never be great. Not conistantly. Carson can. And by starting him this season, he's on his way to becoming just that.

Ok--this 65-yard bomb thing has me wondering:

HOW ACCURATE IS THE KID???

Mike Vick can throw the rock 70 yards--but what is his completion percentage??? Around 50-55% of the time. NOT GOOD!!!

Sure, he can air it out--but how accurate is he going to be??? Any meathead can throw a rock 60 yards--but probably not very precise.

And was it worth taking out INTna who took the team from 2 wins to 8 in one year?!?!?!?!

hmmmmmmmmmm......

His worst completion percentage was 54.9% during the 200 season.

His highest was 63.2% his senior year.

There was one year he threw over 70%, but he only threw 53 total passes that year, so I'm not including that.

From what I've read, his long passes are incredibly accurate, which is what has a lot of people buzzing. We'll see how well he completes them in an NFL environment.