Bengals vs Ravens post game discussion

[cincy9275]

first defense had a lot better day today. i real thought our corners could cover their guys. took everything down field away beside the mason hiccup. nugget looked like the nug from his buckeyes days. if that is the case, nugget can be one hell of a weapon. really have to give it to special teams. they came up big today and scored all the points. heart still raced during the fg's keep having shayne flashbacks!

the offense ssdd with these guys, brat and alexander as coaches are just poop. they completely fail! there teams are just so sloppy and just no disciple what so ever. when are the bengals going to realize these 2 have worn out the welcome and is time to move on. this falls on marv also. it's his job to make sure these guys have these players ready. then week after week no improvement just can't see how this is tolerated and allowed to continue. a undisciplined group is a direct reflection of the men in charge. some how some way they have to get it together! anyways nice to win. GO BENGALS!!!

[derekshank]

No, it just shows he Benson didn't have as good a game against Baltimore today as he did last in their first meeting last October. Look to the second game last year in November, when they were doing it your way, and you'll find Benson has the same 3.4 yard average per rush as he had today.

Yep... 3.4 yards/carry. But 34 carries for 117 yards.

Not the same as 23 carries for 74 yards.

Picking and choosing stats from previous Ravens games to attempt to show similarities doesn't change the facts. And the facts are what anyone who watches the games can tell you from the eyeball test. No need to check a stat book. The Bengals had a better rushing game last year than they do this year. Period.

The reason it was better is simply because of a lack of commitment to the running game that served them so well last year. All the necessary parts are still here. But they rather put 4 or 5 pass catchers on the field on most plays.

What did that strategy get them? Less than 100 rushing yards, and only 253 total yards from scrimmage. Last year, when the Bengals routinely featured only 2 or 3 pass catchers on a given play, they managed 403 total yards and 369 total yards.

[Stripes]

Two games aren't enough to judge the Bengals' capability do anything specific. Still, considering everything that has transpired since the playoff loss in January, should we be at all surprised by the offense's apparent willingness to throw the ball more often than they did last season?

The objective has never been to morph the offense into a passing team at all similar to Palmer's teams earlier in his career. Balance is the intent, and towards that goal the Bengals did a fantastic job today. The running game wasn't terribly productive (duh, we played the Ravens), but they stuck to it admirably. It's plausible obviously that the more frequent three receiver sets could be detrimental to the running game, but considering Benson's disdain for a lead blocker and our blocking tight ends current inability to *block*... I struggle to blame the Bengals for the formations they employed.

Let's wait and see how the running game performs against teams who aren't Baltimore or New England, eh?

[HoosierCat]

And the facts are what anyone who watches the games can tell you from the eyeball test. No need to check a stat book. The Bengals had a better rushing game last year than they do this year. Period.

Please. We are two whole games into the year, one of which became a blowout early resulting in a shift to the passing game. There hasn't been anywhere near enough to eyeball to justify your assertion.

The reason it was better is simply because of a lack of commitment to the running game that served them so well last year. All the necessary parts are still here. But they rather put 4 or 5 pass catchers on the field on most plays.

Well, let's see, last season Benson averaged 23 touches and 96 yards a game. Today, 23 touches, 78 yards. Just not seeing a huge commitment gap there.

What did that strategy get them? Less than 100 rushing yards, and only 253 total yards from scrimmage. Last year, when the Bengals routinely featured only 2 or 3 pass catchers on a given play, they managed 403 total yards and 369 total yards.

No, the question is, what did their execution get them? The strategy produced, among other things, TO open twice in the end zone and Ocho open once...and in each case Palmer threw a poor pass. This game should have been along the lines of a 27-10 blowout.

[Orange and black fanatic]

the offense ssdd with these guys, brat and alexander as coaches are just poop. they completely fail! there teams are just so sloppy and just no disciple what so ever. when are the bengals going to realize these 2 have worn out the welcome and is time to move on. this falls on marv also. it's his job to make sure these guys have these players ready. then week after week no improvement just can't see how this is tolerated and allowed to continue. a undisciplined group is a direct reflection of the men in charge. some how some way they have to get it together! anyways nice to win. GO BENGALS!!!

I couldn't agree more. I texted Fat during the game that they would be better with no OC than with Brat. Given a little time and distance from the heat of that frustrated moment to think about it coolly, I don't think it is too far off. I believe they might be better off with Zampese running things.

BTW both line coaches need to go. I thought when J. "I only bullrush" Smith was here I thought it was him, but watching these guys get chest to chest with o-lineman "rushing" the QB makes me sick. Now I think it is just Hayes. Lord knows I am not a d-lineman but how about a move every once in a while? The penalties alone should be enough for Alexander to be given his walking papers.

[volcom69]

The fact is the Bengals shot themselves in the foot all day. When they did get things going there was a penalty, then TO dropped a touchdown, and Carson missed TO, and missed a wide open Chad in the endzone. The Bengals should have put up big numbers on offense but failed to do so, because of themselves. Carson right now is not the same that miss on a wide open Chad in the endzone i think says it all. I dont know if Palmer get nervous when he feels a pass rush so he rushes his passes or what?

As far as the run, i dont mind them running the ball, but they were not that successful with it, even in the jumbo package. I want them to run the ball more also, but when its not there, its hard to keep with it. Im just glad Brat didnt stop running it. The weekness of the Ravens is that beat up secondary, so i can see why the Bengals would try to exploit that, but Palmer was not on today so that didnt work well either.

[derekshank]

The reason it was better is simply because of a lack of commitment to the running game that served them so well last year. All the necessary parts are still here. But they rather put 4 or 5 pass catchers on the field on most plays.

Well, let's see, last season Benson averaged 23 touches and 96 yards a game. Today, 23 touches, 78 yards. Just not seeing a huge commitment gap there.

Please. Just because you see similar attempts/game doesn't mean the commitment is there.

The formations they are using are not the type you use when running the ball down someone's throat is the goal. They've been using the pass to set up the run like they did In '05-'07. Back then, the first priority was the passing game. Rudi would get plenty of touches, but he was primarily a distraction to keep defenses honest.

My hope this year would be that the Bengals would use the bruising running game to set up the pass... not the other way around. And as long as they used 3WR sets regularly in situations that aren't 3rd and long, it's pretty obvious that they lack a true commitment to running the ball.

What did that strategy get them? Less than 100 rushing yards, and only 253 total yards from scrimmage. Last year, when the Bengals routinely featured only 2 or 3 pass catchers on a given play, they managed 403 total yards and 369 total yards.

No, the question is, what did their execution get them? The strategy produced, among other things, TO open twice in the end zone and Ocho open once...and in each case Palmer threw a poor pass. This game should have been along the lines of a 27-10 blowout.

Yes. Chad and T.O were open even when the running game was ineffective and the defense could focus on them. That merely proves they still have it.

Last year the Bengals passing game was actually pretty productive against the Ravens. When you are continually getting 3 to 4 yards/carry even when they know you running the ball, it forces defenses into man coverage. Chad, T.O. and Gresham in man coverage out will result in plenty of open pass catchers down the field.

Last year everyone agreed the problem was Palmer didn't have receivers who could get open. Instead of plugging in better weapons into that strategy, they've changed philosophies altogether.

[Stripes]

Last year Palmer threw 31 and 33 times in the two Ravens games. He threw 35 times today. I think the entire point is a waste of time, considering we're referring to a whopping three football games (all of which the Bengals won, by the way).

I'm all for the Bengals running the ball. They'd be ridiculous to simply mimic themselves though, as if the strong ground games against Baltimore last season were the only way victory could possibly be achieved. The Bengals field enough weapons in the passing game that the apparent weakness in Baltimore's secondary figured ripe for exploitation. Had Palmer played a better football game, the exploitation would have surely occurred to the tune of many points scored. Even still, the Bengals would have run the ball.

I don't get it.

[kingwilly]

This was a "Win Ugly" game.

The Ravens played a terrible game. They really had no offense, and the Bengals defense made them pay with timely turnovers and big stops.

The Bengals offense squandered at least three of the field position flips, and kicked FG's.

The Bengals D was the story today.

Random thoughts:

How is Geno Atkins not on the field more?

Why does Carson continue to make poor throws? His arms is "fine" they say. He works "hard they say. I am concerned as I have ever been. When he misses open looks and shows very poor decision making, paired with bad mechanics more often than not, there is something to question.

How does Brat dare to claim there are such changes to the Bengals playbook when what I see is nearly the same thing? The routes for Gresham are the same as before. The outs and wheel routes are the same. Chad's skinny post is the same. The off-tackle and interior runs (overloaded or not) are the same. What there is NOT is a proper screen to Scott, there is no true misdirection run... This is plain old junk from Brat.

This team can be 3-2 or 4-1 by the bye. This team *can* win 11 games. To do so, they MUST overhaul some of the offensive philosophy.

They must stop doing the following.

* brining in Scott on 3rd and 1 to run an interior dive play.

* eliminate situations where the offense could have a penalty. maybe it is inflection or the snap count but it is better to be simple than have them walk off 5 and 10 yards, 9-12 times a game.

* throwing passes into 3 and 4 man coverages.

* be more unpredictable. balance is for stat nerds. run the ball 5, 6, 7 times in a row. get an opposing D on their heels.

* if you are going to use the no huddle, do it much faster, per a situational script. with the helmets wired, this should be one of the easiest things in the world. Down/Distance/Personnel. Make a decision and go fast.

Overall, this team is about as exciting as a damp dishcloth. I've seen corpses in medical school that had more adrenaline. Apart from Benson, who is a real monster, this offense lacks fire.

[volcom69]

This was a "Win Ugly" game.

The Ravens played a terrible game. They really had no offense, and the Bengals defense made them pay with timely turnovers and big stops.

The Bengals offense squandered at least three of the field position flips, and kicked FG's.

The Bengals D was the story today.

Random thoughts:

How is Geno Atkins not on the field more?

Why does Carson continue to make poor throws? His arms is "fine" they say. He works "hard they say. I am concerned as I have ever been. When he misses open looks and shows very poor decision making, paired with bad mechanics more often than not, there is something to question.

How does Brat dare to claim there are such changes to the Bengals playbook when what I see is nearly the same thing? The routes for Gresham are the same as before. The outs and wheel routes are the same. Chad's skinny post is the same. The off-tackle and interior runs (overloaded or not) are the same. What there is NOT is a proper screen to Scott, there is no true misdirection run... This is plain old junk from Brat.

This team can be 3-2 or 4-1 by the bye. This team *can* win 11 games. To do so, they MUST overhaul some of the offensive philosophy.

They must stop doing the following.

* brining in Scott on 3rd and 1 to run an interior dive play.

* eliminate situations where the offense could have a penalty. maybe it is inflection or the snap count but it is better to be simple than have them walk off 5 and 10 yards, 9-12 times a game.

* throwing passes into 3 and 4 man coverages.

* be more unpredictable. balance is for stat nerds. run the ball 5, 6, 7 times in a row. get an opposing D on their heels.

* if you are going to use the no huddle, do it much faster, per a situational script. with the helmets wired, this should be one of the easiest things in the world. Down/Distance/Personnel. Make a decision and go fast.

Overall, this team is about as exciting as a damp dishcloth. I've seen corpses in medical school that had more adrenaline. Apart from Benson, who is a real monster, this offense lacks fire.

They have fire, its Batman and Robin lol lol All this talent on offense, but yet they seem to never live up to there potential. Something has to change

[HoosierCat]

Please. Just because you see similar attempts/game doesn't mean the commitment is there.

The formations they are using are not the type you use when running the ball down someone's throat is the goal. They've been using the pass to set up the run like they did In '05-'07. Back then, the first priority was the passing game. Rudi would get plenty of touches, but he was primarily a distraction to keep defenses honest.

My hope this year would be that the Bengals would use the bruising running game to set up the pass... not the other way around. And as long as they used 3WR sets regularly in situations that aren't 3rd and long, it's pretty obvious that they lack a true commitment to running the ball.

I think you're reading too much into last year's 6 OL/FB formations. By this definition, namely that only teams who run that formation regularly are committed to the run, the number of teams committed to the run in the league would be roughly zero. The Bengals didn't use that formation heavily last season by choice, they used it because it was all they had thanks to their lack of competent receivers. And what the heavy use of that formation produced was one of the worst offenses in the NFL.

Yes. Chad and T.O were open even when the running game was ineffective and the defense could focus on them. That merely proves they still have it.

Last year the Bengals passing game was actually pretty productive against the Ravens. When you are continually getting 3 to 4 yards/carry even when they know you running the ball, it forces defenses into man coverage. Chad, T.O. and Gresham in man coverage out will result in plenty of open pass catchers down the field.

Last year everyone agreed the problem was Palmer didn't have receivers who could get open. Instead of plugging in better weapons into that strategy, they've changed philosophies altogether.

Again, I think you're going overboard here. What they are doing -- or, more specifically, trying to do and not quite getting there -- is to bring balance to the offense. It isn't about favoring the pass over the run, it's about being able to do both things at the same time. And both you and I seem to agree that the plan was good, but the Bengals failed to execute.

[kingwilly]

They have fire, its Batman and Robin lol lol All this talent on offense, but yet they seem to never live up to there potential. Something has to change

That something is getting the offensive equivalent to Zimmer: Someone who can extract the best from the talent that is on the team.

That person is not Brat.

[coupdayta]

Agree with starting to worry about Carson. I've been an ardent defender but he was way off today. This game should've been a lot more decisive.

Geno Atkins is the man.

JJoe and Leon are awesome.

Loved seeing the DEF show up.

I think the best thing is to see how the pundits tomorrow will just find some way to not talk about this win after being all over the Ravens' nuts in the preseason. I'm sure Peter King will find some way to make us look bad.

[Sea Ray]

They have fire, its Batman and Robin lol lol All this talent on offense, but yet they seem to never live up to there potential. Something has to change

If they have penalty after penalty and the QB has a bad day then it really doesn't matter much. Ditto for the discussion of whether they're committed to the run or the pass.

The end result is the same. We eeked out a win with very few pts being scored

[ArmyBengal]

How is there not more outrage to the undiscipline play of the offense ??

By that, I mean the pre-snap penalties. False starts and delay of game are unacceptable.

There is no f*cking excuse for that sh*t and is another reason the offense sputtered. It killed some drives or put the offense in a situation that the Ravens defense knew what was coming. Does anyone think that works to the Bengals favor ?? UNDISCIPLINED.

That being said, we beat the Ravens, are 1-1 and 1-0 in the AFCN, so I'm happy today.

Oh yeah, one more thing... Hey TJ Houshmandzadeh, F*CK YOU !!!

[Sea Ray]

You have to love all the contributions by first year Bengals

Shipley and Gresham had big receptions

Adam Jones had a big INT

And NUGENT hits 5 of 5 for all the points in the game.

The Bengals dont win without these four players today.

Good point. Where would they be without Gresham and Shipley and when was the last time we had immediate impact from rookies (Gresham, Shipley, Atkins) like they've had this year?

[Kazkal]

, Kevin Huber has really been a let down to this point.

I know i'll be quoting more of thread but had to address this right away...

WTf you smoking man(no offense)? huber has been Great and leading the NFL he had one bad kick that was touched the ground at 15-10 yard range but simply took a bad bounce...Outside that one kick he has been perfectly fine.

Baby shanks

Happy with the win. Frustrated with how often I saw the 3WR sets. It's nice to get Shipley on the field...

How could you Justify using him any less when he's been our best WR most of the time? Not only that but it's either 3 WR sets or 2 TE since we don't have FB...

34 rushes in '09: 27 by Benson (many behind the unbalanced line) for 120 yards.

31 rushes in '10: 23 by Benson (mostly out of a 3WR formation) for 78 yards.

Not the same.

Last year they had Mathis playing a much better guard then Livings (Mathis started in both Raven Games

The aforementioned stats should suffice as evidence that a 3WR set is inferior to the unbalanced line when desiring to run the ball.

no It shouldn't :> Seriously look at Bensons highlights last year almost all his huge lines came from left side when it was whitworth & Mathis on the left side.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

How is there not more outrage to the undiscipline play of the offense ??

By that, I mean the pre-snap penalties. False starts and delay of game are unacceptable.

I think we've come to accept it as par for the course. Why it is, I don't know. It's been a problem for years. Do they not stress this enough in practice? And after this many years, why? I dunno.

Bobbie Williams was the only lineman not to get a penalty that I saw. Receivers were bad as usual. Kyle Cook needs to learn to F**King count.

Oh yeah, one more thing... Hey TJ Douchemandzadeh, F*CK YOU !!!

Fixed.

[HoosierCat]

Oh yeah, one more thing... Hey TJ Douchemandzadeh, F*CK YOU !!!

Fixed.

I like "Houshmanocatches" myself...

[Kazkal]

I think you're reading too much into last year's 6 OL/FB formations. By this definition, namely that only teams who run that formation regularly are committed to the run,

not only that but I could swore we were alot less effective in our "Jumbo package with FB" vs Normal Sets...I can only recall one big play coming out of it but tons of short gains...

Going purely off memory but I remember rewatching those games because of the disappointment of the unbalance line and seeing how much we used it and how ineffective it seemed.

[derekshank]

I think you're reading too much into last year's 6 OL/FB formations.

I'm not suggesting they should use it nearly as often as last year. I'm just suggesting that it was something that worked. Just because they aren't forced to use it doesn't mean they never should. More importantly, how often did they they run out of legitimate running formations today? I admit I wasn't keeping a detailed stat book... but I was annoyed early on with how many 3WR sets I saw... and the frustration only grew with time because the running game never really got going.

What they are doing -- or, more specifically, trying to do and not quite getting there -- is to bring balance to the offense. It isn't about favoring the pass over the run, it's about being able to do both things at the same time. And both you and I seem to agree that the plan was good, but the Bengals failed to execute.

Yes, they failed to execute. But that doesn't make it a good plan. And running the ball with minimal impact out of a passing formation is hardly balance.

I agree that balance would be good. And balance doesn't mean more passing formations. It just means better execution. They have the weapons to achieve balance without the new philosophy.

How could you Justify using Shipley any less when he's been our best WR most of the time? Not only that but it's either 3 WR sets or 2 TE since we don't have FB.

Yes. The Bengals moved the ball best when Palmer was finding Shipley and Gresham open. Why didn't it continue? The Ravens adjusted. Last year, it didn't matter how they adjusted. The Bengals continued running effectively.

As for the 2 TE sets. Bring it on. The more blockers the better.

Seriously look at Bensons highlights last year almost all his huge lines came from left side when it was whitworth & Mathis on the left side.

Bull. The Bengals had 30 rushes of 10+ yards to the left, and 19 to the right. 45 rushes that resulted in 1st downs to the left, and 44 to the right. Attempting to blame all of the rushing woes on Livings is your soapbox... and it's a silly one because the Bengals were horrible at running up the middle from start to finish last season.

But that's all beside the point. Benson wasn't able to get it going today out of a 3WR set. And who could expect him to? The Ravens have arguably the best front-7 in the NFL. Asking an O-Line and a pass catching TE to lead the way against Baltimore is a fools errand. Last year they had better results because they didn't worry about having so many pass catchers on the field. They just lined up and were bigger and stronger. That's hard to do with a pass catching TE and an 180 lbs WR.

I could swore we were alot less effective in our "Jumbo package with FB" vs Normal Sets...I can only recall one big play coming out of it but tons of short gains...

First of all... the Jumbo package was designed for short gains. Secondly, I was using that as merely an example of the commitment the Bengals had to the run last year. They didn't care if you knew they were about to run the ball. They just dared you to stop it. I liked that attitude.

As for the "Normal sets" you mentioned... I long for those days. Because a 3WR set is not normal, but it appears to be the Bengals base package.

[Kazkal]

Bull. The Bengals had 30 rushes of 10+ yards to the left, and 19 to the right. 45 rushes that resulted in 1st downs to the left, and 44 to the right. Attempting to blame all of the rushing woes on Livings is your soapbox... and it's a silly one because the Bengals were horrible at running up the middle from start to finish last season.

-1 not on a soapbox

-2 Not blaming only Livings,Cook was terrible tonight the tackles having been doing their greatest but I just can't see us blaming 3 WR sets when that helped make our offense as productive as it was...I'm truthfully surprised they ran it as much as they did being we weren't having all that much success.

-3 Where did you get your numbers from because I could have swore last season when we ran to the left we were top half of the NFL when we ran to the right we were bottom half (bottom 5 with collins)

[derekshank]

-1 not on a soapbox

Could have fooled me. Hardly a post goes by without a Mathis mention. I'm not even saying I disagree with you... but Livings isn't the problem I'm talking about.

-2 Not blaming only Livings,Cook was terrible tonight the tackles having been doing their greatest but I just can't see us blaming 3 WR sets when that helped make our offense as productive as it was...I'm truthfully surprised they ran it as much as they did being we weren't having all that much success.

3WR sets made our offense productive? God... I'd hate to see your definition of unproductive.

-3 Where did you get your numbers from because I could have swore last season when we ran to the left we were top half of the NFL when we ran to the right we were bottom half (bottom 5 with collins)

NFL Offensive Line stats

[Kazkal]

Could have fooled me. Hardly a post goes by without a Mathis mention. I'm not even saying I disagree with you... but Livings isn't the problem I'm talking about.

agreed I been tooting hard on that but just pointing out as one change up but Agree plenty has changed...I just would find it hard to pull Gresham & Shipley off the field more when Carson seems be looking at T.O & Chad too much even when they are on the field...Offense has seemed to do best when it spreads the ball around.

PS,Nice see NFL have stats for NFL linemen but still tough to use to judge because don't know how often Jumbo packages were actually used on short field...Which plays One player was in for another another wasn't I wish family members didn't delete my tivo lol....Ohwell all in all happy to have the win the team still needs to improve and I still hate Paul alexander as much as I hate Daniel Coats.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Has anyone else noticed that when the Bengals win, Joey Pong is no where to be seen?