Time to get some new people in the Med Staff

[Sea Ray]

So everything works out fine, but you're still ticked off by things that could have happened, but might not have? Isn't it likely a run at Boldin or Marshall doesn't result in anything but driving their price up?

My guess is Mike Brown disagrees with you about everything working out fine. He's out $7-8 mill and that's not chump change in the NFL. I would say he's got a serious bone to pick with his docs.

[kingwilly]

This is an issue that is not just rooted in the medical staff or "luck", it is rooted in the gambles that SoP takes when he makes roster decisions.

Repeat until dead. "We are the Bastard Sons of Paul Brown, and we will throw the ball around the yard at all costs."

SoP neglected to choose Boldin or Marshall, and the resulting bungling of the Brant selection and deal, and subsequent signing of TO indicate the seriousness of the error.

Or as a sign of the Bengals commitment to fixing the passing game at all costs.

In this case, I think it will all work out.

So heaps of criticism followed immediately by a passing grade. (Pun intended.)

More to the point of poor initial decisions, this team COULD have made a run at Boldin or Marshall (giving them Bryant type money) and STILL grabbed TO if necessary, as they seemingly were prepared to carry Bryant had his knee been a bit better. That is the part I get ticked about.

So everything works out fine, but you're still ticked off by things that could have happened, but might not have? Isn't it likely a run at Boldin or Marshall doesn't result in anything but driving their price up?

I failed to qualify my expectation that "things will work out". I think the end result will be an improved passing attack and another run at the division and a possibly deeper foray into the playoff wilderness.

However, this is simply luck at this point. TO could have been gone, leaving the Bengals with the need to wait on Bryant.

Yes, things probably will work out but it is the decisions that rely on pure dumb luck that permits it to be so. In the professional world, where results matter (an I say this knowing full well that SoP does not operate in the real world), this is not how it should be done.

I am happy they got lucky this time, but the fact that luck ha enter into this at all is telling, and the past medical disasters, where luck did not influence, means something is wrong, something beyond the normal wear and tear of the NFL injury/recovery management.

To me, this is all about management, or the lack thereof.

[HairOnFire]

I failed to qualify my expectation that "things will work out".

That's fine. The only person who seemed to be confused by your remarks was Sea Ray and sadly....you can't be blamed for his state of confusion.

I think the end result will be an improved passing attack and another run at the division and a possibly deeper foray into the playoff wilderness.

And that's a good thing that wasn't the result of chance or accident, right? In fact, it's still true despite a major component failing utterly and at great financial cost. That said, beyond the monetary considerations what has the Bryant cost the team itself? Plans haven't been shelved. Roster spots haven't been wasted. Things seem to be working out.

However, this is simply luck at this point. TO could have been gone, leaving the Bengals with the need to wait on Bryant.

Owens had no other suiters.....as proven by his willingness to accept roughly half of what his previous asking price had been.

Yes, things probably will work out but it is the decisions that rely on pure dumb luck that permits it to be so.

Please. By signing Owens the Bengals hedged their Bryant bet....allowing them to cut Bryant without missing a beat. That's hardly dumb luck.

[HairOnFire]

Of note, the PFT website currently features stories containing accusations of medical misdiagnosis involving three seperate teams. Those teams are the Bengals (two players), the Redskins (two players), and the previously discussed medical staff of the Miami Dolphins....who admit they can't figure out what's wrong with Channing Crowders leg. Or hip. Or groin. Or abdomen.

The website also includes several mentions of players getting initial diagnosis confirming second opinions from doctors who aren't employed directly by teams, including Jonathan Vilma of the Saints.

Just saying....

[membengal]

Thanks hair. That's the kind of anecdotal stuff I was referencing earlier in response to Willy's list of lingering Bengal injuries. I suspect this kind of thing is common to all team, more so than we realize, as steeped in almost solely Bengals news as we are. Again, I think it an off-shoot of the violence of the sport being played and the injuries that occur as a result of that violence.

[HoosierCat]

Look, just because you can almost find someone willing to make a homer defense it isn't sufficient reason to assume the opposite viewpoint. As fans we're never going to have the information or expertise needed to judge a medical diagnosis or rehab.....so it's just as pointless to defend actions we have no real knowledge of as it is to embrace yet another Bengal related conspiracy theory. As a result I traditionally limit my involvement in these types of debate to contract matters or gently mocking anyone who attempts to play doctor on the internet.

Yeah, I know. I'm not a doctor either, and I don't have any interest in playing one, even on TV. But I don't think year after year of this issue lurching out of its grave can be dismissed as simply as "yet another Bengals related conspiracy theory" either.

No, I don't buy the self-refuting silliness of guys like Daugherty when they write that Mike Brown handed $8 million to Bryant but refused to spend a grand on an MRi because he's cheap. But it's quite possible that what's going on with the Bengals just reflects the caliber of care one can find in a place like Cincinnati.

If you are a top-caliber knee surgeon, for example, I'm going to bet you'll be chasing the money to LA or NY or Boston or Dallas or Chicago or anywhere else you can pay off those big med school loans the fastest. Saying that the Bengal have the best docs in Cincinnati is saying...what? How does the best doc in Cincy stack up to the best doc in New York?

It's telling to me that the top players, like Carson Palmer, routinely go out-of-market for that coveted second opinion. It might behoove the Bengals to step up to the plate, at least in cases like Bryant's where they are about to lay down huge dollars on a guy coming off a big knee injury, to call in the best in the nation, not the best in Cincinnati. They might spend a few grand extra, but look at what they may have saved.

[Sea Ray]

Thanks hair. That's the kind of anecdotal stuff I was referencing earlier in response to Willy's list of lingering Bengal injuries. I suspect this kind of thing is common to all team, more so than we realize, as steeped in almost solely Bengals news as we are. Again, I think it an off-shoot of the violence of the sport being played and the injuries that occur as a result of that violence.

I don't know that 3 teams equates to "common".

I've lost enough confidence in the Bengals medical staff that when I hear Andre Caldwell is out with an abdominal strain, I can't say I'd be surprised if it turns out to be a sports hernia needing surgery. Their history has put doubt in my mind

[Sea Ray]

Yeah, I know. I'm not a doctor either, and I don't have any interest in playing one, even on TV. But I don't think year after year of this issue lurching out of its grave can be dismissed as simply as "yet another Bengals related conspiracy theory" either.

No, I don't buy the self-refuting silliness of guys like Daugherty when they write that Mike Brown handed $8 million to Bryant but refused to spend a grand on an MRi because he's cheap. But it's quite possible that what's going on with the Bengals just reflects the caliber of care one can find in a place like Cincinnati.

If you are a top-caliber knee surgeon, for example, I'm going to bet you'll be chasing the money to LA or NY or Boston or Dallas or Chicago or anywhere else you can pay off those big med school loans the fastest. Saying that the Bengal have the best docs in Cincinnati is saying...what? How does the best doc in Cincy stack up to the best doc in New York?

It's telling to me that the top players, like Carson Palmer, routinely go out-of-market for that coveted second opinion. It might behoove the Bengals to step up to the plate, at least in cases like Bryant's where they are about to lay down huge dollars on a guy coming off a big knee injury, to call in the best in the nation, not the best in Cincinnati. They might spend a few grand extra, but look at what they may have saved.

Reds surgeon Dr Tim Kremchek has an outstanding reputation. So much so that athletes from other teams routinely come to him to get their surgeries done. Gregg Zaun, Cristian Guzman and Jason Marquis just to name a few.

I don't think Cincinnati as a city has anything to do with it. In fact I think we're lucky to have Dr Kremchek

[HoosierCat]

Reds surgeon Dr Tim Kremchek has an outstanding reputation. So much so that athletes from other teams routinely come to him to get their surgeries done. Gregg Zaun, Cristian Guzman and Jason Marquis just to name a few.

I don't think Cincinnati as a city has anything to do with it. In fact I think we're lucky to have Dr Kremchek

I'm sure he is and I'm sure you are. But how many Kremchek's are there in Cincy vs. Los Angeles? Gonna bet on LA myself.

[Sea Ray]

Arguably Dr James Andrews is the most sought after sports surgeon and he is in Birmingham, AL.

My point is simply the Bengals could find expert Doctors in Cincinnati if they tried harder.

[HairOnFire]

But I don't think year after year of this issue lurching out of its grave can be dismissed as simply as "yet another Bengals related conspiracy theory" either.

So what would you call it? As for me, I'll call it normal in the sense that I doubt you'd see much difference if you were watching other teams as closely as you watch the Bengals. Furthermore, the example of a free agent making millions of guaranteed dollars without ever playing a snap for the team is pretty rare stuff, isn't it? Hardly the type of thing that lurches out of the grave year after year.

Saying that the Bengal have the best docs in Cincinnati is saying...what?

It says the Bengals have a medical staff competent enough, at the very least, to stabilize your injury until you can see whatever specialist you choose. To be fair, I'm guessing the Bengals medical staff is much better than that, but that'll do for now.

How does the best doc in Cincy stack up to the best doc in New York?

Why does it matter if a player can request a 2nd opinion from the doctor in New York that the Bengals will pay for?

It's telling to me that the top players, like Carson Palmer, routinely go out-of-market for that coveted second opinion.

Well, what exactly does that tell you? That players who actively manage their own health care have at their disposal the very best access to expert opinion that money can buy, right?

It might behoove the Bengals to step up to the plate, at least in cases like Bryant's where they are about to lay down huge dollars on a guy coming off a big knee injury, to call in the best in the nation, not the best in Cincinnati. They might spend a few grand extra, but look at what they may have saved.

No argument. That the Bengals erred in the Bryant example is beyond arguing even though the final chapter probably hasn't been written. But for the Bengals, what happens now is up to the guy who paid dearly for a mistaken medical opinion. If he's angry about that then let him act upon that anger, right?

But all of the above is a completely different issue than what so much of what threads like these are about. Instead, we routinely find ourselves using scraps of information discussing how players are presumably maimed by incompetent medical care rather than the violent collision that injured them in the first place. How their careers are shortened due to incorrect medical diagnosis rather than the bone that broke or the flesh that tore. How many of them are callously tossed aside by a presumably uncaring front office. How the Bengals will foolishly squander millions of dollars precisely because they refuse to spend pennies.

And there's the rub because I'm not seeing any of that stuff. Instead, I see a seemingly endless stream of fans and hack writers indulging their fictional medical degrees.

[HairOnFire]

Thanks hair. That's the kind of anecdotal stuff I was referencing earlier in response to Willy's list of lingering Bengal injuries.

I considered including the numerous examples of players who were just waived from injured lists as well, but documenting the normal and commonplace isn't all that rewarding. Suffice to say that todays headlines will feature new names and new teams and few of us will give a fig unless the Bengals are directly involved.

I suspect this kind of thing is common to all team, more so than we realize, as steeped in almost solely Bengals news as we are.

Yup. I especially liked the mention of the vaunted Miami Dolphin medical staff being unable to diagnose the actual location of Channing Crowder's injury. Shades of Chris Perry, right? Or how about the accusation that the Redskins misdiagnosed Malcolm Kelly's injury, and made things worse by clearing him to practice and play? Last, amongst the numerous mentions of players seeking medical 2nd opinions was a blurb about how Jonathan Vilma only waited two weeks before seeking confirmation of the teams findings.

[HairOnFire]

Arguably Dr James Andrews is the most sought after sports surgeon and he is in Birmingham, AL.

My point is simply the Bengals could find expert Doctors in Cincinnati if they tried harder.

Why bother when the Bengals already have a prolonged working relationship with Andrews? Besides, all players can request 2nd opinions from any expert of their choosing, at no cost to the player, and they can later pick their own methods of rehab.

[COB]

I'm sorry to see guys get hurt. I'm glad to see the Bengals acting in a Parcellian, cutthroat manner. That being; get the injured guys out, get guys who can help NOW in.

The days of Chris Perry type players seem to be over, and I'm cheering.

"Okay...that was a little strange. When you were in that coma, did you feel your brain being damaged?" - Dr. Nick Riviera

[membengal]

Thanks hair. That's the kind of anecdotal stuff I was referencing earlier in response to Willy's list of lingering Bengal injuries. I suspect this kind of thing is common to all team, more so than we realize, as steeped in almost solely Bengals news as we are. Again, I think it an off-shoot of the violence of the sport being played and the injuries that occur as a result of that violence.

I don't know that 3 teams equates to "common".

I've lost enough confidence in the Bengals medical staff that when I hear Andre Caldwell is out with an abdominal strain, I can't say I'd be surprised if it turns out to be a sports hernia needing surgery. Their history has put doubt in my mind

Sigh.

I am saying that I bet you find what was outlined there for ALL nfl teams. And would know about it if you followed those teams. There, without scracthing too hard, are several other teams dealing with that kind of charge vis a vis the medical staff.

[HairOnFire]

I don't know that 3 teams equates to "common".

It's three teams currently.

Right now at this frozen moment in time.

Tomorrow it might be two teams or four.

And it might be even more immediately after the next round of cuts.

Regardless, it's proof enough we aren't all that unique. Because the big city Washington Redskins, owned by the richest guy in the NFL, currently have just as many injured players making accusation storylines as the Bengals. And there's another one featuring the medical staff in big city Miami. That's right, the very same staff that recommended Jeanty have major surgery the Bengals didn't think was needed....(harumph!)....is currently unable to diagnose the actual location of Channing Crowder's injury. Might be leg, might be hip, might be groin, might be lower abdomen.

Sound familiar?

I've lost enough confidence in the Bengals medical staff that when I hear Andre Caldwell is out with an abdominal strain, I can't say I'd be surprised if it turns out to be a sports hernia needing surgery. Their history has put doubt in my mind

Shades of Channing Crowder, right?

[Sea Ray]

Why bother when the Bengals already have a prolonged working relationship with Andrews? Besides, all players can request 2nd opinions from any expert of their choosing, at no cost to the player, and they can later pick their own methods of rehab.

Well that's fine and good for the players but what about the team? Are you suggesting next time Mike Brown is thinking about signing a free agent he ought to get a 2nd opinion after getting an "OK" from doctors on his payroll?

[Sea Ray]

I don't know that 3 teams equates to "common".

It's three teams currently.

Right now at this frozen moment in time.

Tomorrow it might be two teams or four.

And it might be even more immediately after the next round of cuts.

Regardless, it's proof enough we aren't all that unique. Because the big city Washington Redskins, owned by the richest guy in the NFL, currently have just as many injured players making accusation storylines as the Bengals. And there's another one featuring the medical staff in big city Miami. That's right, the very same staff that recommended Jeanty have major surgery the Bengals didn't think was needed....(harumph!)....is currently unable to diagnose the actual location of Channing Crowder's injury. Might be leg, might be hip, might be groin, might be lower abdomen.

Sound familiar?

I've lost enough confidence in the Bengals medical staff that when I hear Andre Caldwell is out with an abdominal strain, I can't say I'd be surprised if it turns out to be a sports hernia needing surgery. Their history has put doubt in my mind

Shades of Channing Crowder, right?

So you're thinking that Caldwell out to get on Dr Andrews' schedule to evaluate his abdominal strain?

[HairOnFire]

So you're thinking that Caldwell out to get on Dr Andrews' schedule to evaluate his abdominal strain?

I'm not bothering to form an opinion one way or another. Because again, I don't have enough information to form an educated opinion, and anything less seems like a waste of time. But if Caldwell feels uncertain about the treatment he's currently getting all he has to do is request an appointment with the specialist of his choosing. The Bengals pick up the tab. Conversely, if he fails to take advanatage of outside resources that player is either guilty of mismanaging his own health OR he's satisfied with the level of care he receives from team doctors. Either way the choice and the responsibility are his primarily.

[HoosierCat]

Conversely, if he fails to take advanatage of outside resources that player is either guilty of mismanaging his own health OR he's satisfied with the level of care he receives from team doctors

OR he doesn't want to antagonize his employer. Yes, players technically have the right to a team-paid second opinion, but teams frown on players who insist on exercising that right. And they dislike even more intensely players who follow that by acting on a contrary second opinion. If you are a key, big-bucks guy like Palmer, you can get away with this (as Carson did in ignoring the team's desire to have him undergo Tommy John surgery in 2008) but if you're a Caldwell or a Jeanty, challenging the official medical position of the team is asking to get cut.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Not at all. In fact, it's far more accurate to say that the Bryant signing was just one of a dozen moves made to strengthen the Bengals passing game, and further proof of the Bengals remarkable and sometimes foolish commitment to throwing the ball around the yard at all costs.

Nice try, but it was the only move of the dozen that cost $7M/yr. Make no mistake, he was to be the centerpiece of their offseason. And that move was, to use our word of the week, fuggin' RETARDED.

I couldn't imagine why a sane person wouldn't rather sign Boldin at $8M vs Bryant at $7M, and I said that before it was clear that Bryant's knee was hamburger. We know now that the Bengals docs got punked on this one, but where were the football guys - it wasn't a great move even if he was healthy. Also, let's not forget that this is two straight years that the Bengals paid $7M/yr for a WR who can't play professional football. Coincidence, or did they re-hire Dave Shula to WR coach when I wasn't looking?

I realize that Mikey could drown a bag of puppies and you'd be able to spin it, but the Bryant fiasco has to be on the top 10 Mikey screwups. Make no mistake, it's dumb luck that the only downside of that crapfest is $8M lit on fire. Thankfully, we didn't need Bryant anyway.

On an unrelated note, I turned up this gem. How much would we have to chip in to hire Dave Shula to speak at a season kickoff keg party?
/>http://www.fivestarspeakers.com/espeakers/8346/David-Shula.html

[HairOnFire]

Conversely, if he fails to take advanatage of outside resources that player is either guilty of mismanaging his own health OR he's satisfied with the level of care he receives from team doctors

OR he doesn't want to antagonize his employer. Yes, players technically have the right to a team-paid second opinion, but teams frown on players who insist on exercising that right. And they dislike even more intensely players who follow that by acting on a contrary second opinion. If you are a key, big-bucks guy like Palmer, you can get away with this (as Carson did in ignoring the team's desire to have him undergo Tommy John surgery in 2008) but if you're a Caldwell or a Jeanty, challenging the official medical position of the team is asking to get cut.

Antagonize? Frown upon? Dislike intensely? Just asking to be cut?

Sheesh, not only do you insist on offering unqualified and uninformed medical opnions...you're now waxing poetically about the teams emotional state. All things considered you're a bit like Dr Phil, but without his wildly successful career.

[COB]

I realize that Mikey could drown a bag of puppies

You know, you say that like it's a bad thing. With the incredible overpopulation of dogs and cats, animal rights groups would actually promote such a drowning. Fewer unwanted pets means better quality of life for the ones that are left.

So why don't more people commit puppycide? Mainly because they're selfish. They worry about their own feelings, how sad they'll be if they do such a thing. They let their local dog pound do it, hidden from view. Think about the animals, not yourself.

If Mike were to have the insight to recognize what a desirable thing it is to drown puppies, then had the unselfish courage to go ahead and do it (or even just throw the bag down in his driveway and back the Lumina over it), you're damn right I'd applaud him for it. The word "hero" comes to mind.

Humane Society recommends euthenasia that will "cause a rapid loss of consciousness and that cause minimal pain, distress, and suffering"

[HairOnFire]

Make no mistake, he was to be the centerpiece of their offseason.

No, he wasn't. From the moment he was signed Bryant stepped into the role of lesser sidekick, and long beore being released he had openly embraced the role of third wheel after Owens was signed. Not to mention how the Bengals were said to have completely overhauled their offensive playbook around changes to the TE position and the new TE they selected in the 1st round. So make no mistake about it, Bryant was signed to be the new Coles....and that ain't no centerpiece. Rather, it's a complimentary position.

...it wasn't a great move even if he was healthy.

I was wondering when we'd get around to someone claiming Bryant wouldn't have worked out even if his injury healed. Because there's nothing like a bold sounding claim that can't be contested, right? In fact, that sort of thing has almost become a DC Bengal fan trademark, hasn't it?

I realize that Mikey could drown a bag of puppies and you'd be able to spin it....

Actually, I like puppies, especially when stuffed with peanut butter and deep fried, and I'd be very angry if you had proof Mike Brown was drowning them for no good reason. Eat what you kill, right? That said, all you have proof of is him wasting his money on yet another WR in a year when there's no salary cap. And as bad as that may sound you do have to consider how quickly Brown moved to replace Bryant.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

So make no mistake about it, Bryant was signed to be the new Coles....and that ain't no centerpiece. Rather, it's a complimentary position.

He was their centerpiece FA signing. The dollars dictate that. If your argument is that his status and ability were not commensurate with what he was paid, you're simply proving my point. You're right about one thing - Bryant became the new Coles. $7M lit on fire.

I was wondering when we'd get around to someone claiming Bryant wouldn't have worked out even if his injury healed. Because there's nothing like a bold sounding claim that can't be contested, right? In fact, that sort of thing has almost become a DC Bengal fan trademark, hasn't it?

You have it backward, because you are (in trademark Hair fashion) trying to win a debate by forcing your opponent into proving a negative. I mean, you can't *prove* I wouldn't be an elite WR either. The relevant question is 'what evidence points to him actually being that good?' He's been incredibly inconsistent over his career and known to have a reasonably crappy attitude. Compare that to Boldin, and..actually, there is no comparison. Please, make a case as to why you'd rather have Bryant over Boldin for comparable money. Just because I'm generous, let's even pretend Bryant's not injured.

And as bad as that may sound you do have to consider how quickly Brown moved to replace Bryant.

Sure, I'm always magnanimous enough to give every retard his day. Mikey realized that this is Our Year and busted out the checkbook. A very good decision, sarcasm turned off. My beef with him isn't that he's unwilling to spend on salaries. Rather, it's the penny-wise/pound-foolish schtick he's famous for. Like, you know, skimping on medical and talent evaluation personnel that lead to fiascos like this. To say nothing of skimping on facilities, but since I'm not a bubble backer I'll let somebody else lead that charge.