6th Round: Dezmon Briscoe

[HairOnFire]

Caldwell hasn't had a chance to play?

Simpson, a 2nd round pick, has gotten no playing time at all, and Caldwell, a 3rd round pick, has never competed for playing time as anything but a 3rd or 4th WR. Furthermore, I read where you applauded the addition of Shipley precisely because it further reduces Caldwell's role.....meaning the Bengals will net almost nothing from the previous orgy of draft picks wasted several years ago on 3 wideouts and a TE. And yet, I'm reminded again how you once defended all of those picks loudly, just as you're doing now.

And when the Bengals were racked by injury at WR last season, who got the call over Simpson. Yeah, a guy from the practice squad. What does that tell you?

That the selection of Simpson was a luxury this team couldn't afford, an opinion you once disagreed with strongly, but now hold up as the primary reason even more early picks need to be wasted on part-time role players.

As to the status of starting positions when they were drafted in 2008, well, let's look back: Chad was in the middle of a trade-me campaign, skipping the offseason, and refusing to get his ankle cleaned out, putting his ability to start the season into question.

So you're now changing your previous stance about how Chad's meltdown and further threat to tank the season, which he promptly did, wasn't the sole reason for Simpson being selected?

No, there were no needs at all at WR.

Isn't it funny how the above statement represents the only opinion you'll never change?

[HoosierCat]

Simpson, a 2nd round pick, has gotten no playing time at all,

Let's not change the subject: Simpson may not have played much, but he has very much had that "chance to play" you claim he hasn't had. Between Henry's suspensions and demise, TJ's departure, and Chad's uneven play, he had plenty of chances to get on the field. Simpson's problem isn't a lack of opportunity, it's a lack of ability.

and Caldwell, a 3rd round pick, has never competed for playing time as anything but a 3rd or 4th WR.

But he has had plenty of opportunity, right? 23 games.

That the selection of Simpson was a luxury this team couldn't afford, an opinion you once disagreed with strongly

And still do. Fixing the WR position has been a major challenge for the Bengals since the end of 2007 season. You can argue about how they went about it, for example, via the draft versus giving big-bucks contracts to Chad and TJ (and that assumes the latter would have signed one, which given his behavior in 2008-09 is far from clear) but doing nothing was not an option.

So you're now changing your previous stance about how Chad's meltdown and further threat to tank the season, which he promptly did, wasn't the sole reason for Simpson being selected?

Of course it wasn't the sole reason; TJ's impending free agency and the fact they had just cut Henry drove the pick as well. The selection was driven by multiple needs at the position -- and certainly, it qualifies as an obvious example of why reaching for need is usually a huge mistake -- not by any desire to "churn" wide receivers.

[HairOnFire]

Let's not change the subject...

I'm not. Because the subject is wasted picks, past and present.

Simpson may not have played much, but he has very much had that "chance to play" you claim he hasn't had.

That's complete crap, and you know it. But I guess you have to claim otherwise because you welcomed Chad's return for the tank corp, and once that happened the role Simpson was drafted to play all but evaporated. Worse, it was reduced further still when the Bengals brought Henry back.

Simpson's problem isn't a lack of opportunity, it's a lack of ability.

What would you know about his ability? You haven't seen him play anymore than anyone else has. All you seem to know is there's supposedly a great pressing need for new wideouts every year despite there being absolutely no open starting positions. And despite all of this, you actually advocated taking a 1st round WR this year. But not the one considered a Top 5 talent, but rather....the raw guy who doesn't know how to run a route tree, and doesn't even play the slot....the only role even remotely unsettled.

...doing nothing was not an option.

And neither was developing the players already drafted, apparently. Not when it's so easy to draft 'em early, often, and late. And not when so many fans accept churning and burning without getting anything in return.

The [simpson] selection was driven by multiple needs at the position -- and certainly, it qualifies as an obvious example of why reaching for need is usually a huge mistake.....

If it's so obvious in hindsight, and it is, why do you continue advocating a strategy that usually results in huge mistakes?

[Ickey44]

Hair, just out of curiosity, how do you propose we get pass catchers if not draft them? I really didn't see the need to draft two new receivers either, but I'm just curious how you would get receivers if you don't draft them? You can't always rely on free agency. At some point, you will have to draft a receiver.

[HairOnFire]

Hair, just out of curiosity, how do you propose we get pass catchers if not draft them?

Doesn't free agency count? And prior to the draft didn't the Bengals lock up the only unsettled starting job at WR?

I really didn't see the need to draft two new receivers either...

Actually, it was three.

At some point, you will have to draft a receiver.

And at some point you have to stop.

[Ickey44]

Doesn't free agency count? And prior to the draft didn't the Bengals lock up the only unsettled starting job at WR?

Yes it does, but as seen by last years pick up, it can be just as unpredictable as drafting someone.

And at some point you have to stop.

Again, I agree completely that those picks (other than Gresham) should have been used on other positions, I'm just trying to see what your approach would be to rebuild a passing game that was ranked near the bottom of the league. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're saying that we should quit drafting WR's completely. So when Chad's gone and Bryant is too, where do you propose we get their replacements from?

[ArmyBengal]

Just to add a little to the conversation, Todd McShay (who I don't care for) has his 2011 mock draft up for ESPN insiders and guess who he has the Bengals taking ??

Julio Jones, WR, Alabama

[HoosierCat]

Simpson may not have played much, but he has very much had that "chance to play" you claim he hasn't had.

That's complete crap, and you know it.

No, it isn't. If there were no opportunities to play, how have Caldwell, Cosby, even Mo Purify gotten on the field in the last two years, but not Simpson. The coaching staff has had endless opportunities to get Simpson into the game...yet they continually refused to do so. Much to the complaint of many a Bengal fan, I might add.

What would you know about his ability?

See above. What does it tell you that they'd rather bring a guy up from the PS than play Jerome?

All you seem to know is there's supposedly a great pressing need for new wideouts every year despite there being absolutely no open starting positions.

So two of the three top wide receiver slots didn't open up during the past two seasons?

[HairOnFire]

Doesn't free agency count? And prior to the draft didn't the Bengals lock up the only unsettled starting job at WR?

Yes it does, but as seen by last years pick up, it can be just as unpredictable as drafting someone.

I don't think that's true as veteran free agents have a history of NFL work that can be evaluated. WR draft picks, even productive ones, typically have a history of only playing in spread offenses against the soft zone coverages so common in the college game.

Again, I agree completely that those picks (other than Gresham) should have been used on other positions.....

Let's stop there for a moment. Because it simply isn't a matter of picks like the 3rd rounder that was burned on Shipley being better used elsewhere. You also have to consider the things you're not getting when you repeatedly use valuable picks on players who even if they pan out will never play more than a part-time role. Furthermore, teams who haven't gotten what they needed early in the draft often find themselves reaching late in the draft, as the Bengals did twice.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're saying that we should quit drafting WR's completely. So when Chad's gone and Bryant is too, where do you propose we get their replacements from?

Didn't I repeatedly say I would have been fine with the selection of Dez Bryant in the 1st round? And wasn't that because his selection would not only have been better value than Gresham, but would have added a WR why might actually develope into a true #1? Instead, they added a 1st round TE when cheaper options were plentiful, and then added two more wideouts targeted for part-time roles. And there's the rub because none of the moves made fill the needs you mention, and guys like Hoosier are still going to plead for next years 1st round pick to be burned on a replacement for Chad....who he'll still want to keep.

[HairOnFire]

Simpson may not have played much, but he has very much had that "chance to play" you claim he hasn't had.

That's complete crap, and you know it.

No, it isn't. If there were no opportunities to play, how have Caldwell, Cosby, even Mo Purify gotten on the field in the last two years, but not Simpson.

By playing the slot or special teams....the same role Shipley was just drafted to fill. (Churn and burn)

The coaching staff has had endless opportunities to get Simpson into the game...yet they continually refused to do so. Much to the complaint of many a Bengal fan, I might add.

I'm reminded that some Bengals fans like yourself complain loudly everytime it's suggested Simpson be given his first real opportunity to play.

What does it tell you that they'd rather bring a guy up from the PS than play Jerome?

That they valued special team skills over other considerations, and did so because no matter who they activated that player wasn't going to get meaningful snaps with the offense. Which I remind you is exactly what happened.

So two of the three top wide receiver slots didn't open up during the past two seasons?

Not for the young guys. Because as you pointed out during one of your more lucid moments, the #2 role was deemed far too important to be left in the hands of an inexperienced receiver. Which sort of begs the question of why so many young wideouts were drafted in the first place, doesn't it?

And with that we come full circle.

[HairOnFire]

Just to add a little to the conversation, Todd McShay (who I don't care for) has his 2011 mock draft up for ESPN insiders and guess who he has the Bengals taking ??

Julio Jones, WR, Alabama

Did he also happen to say which wideouts the Bengals will be drafting next year in the 2nd and 3rd and 6th rounds?

[BengalPimp]

I would say the only two "safe" WRs are Chad and Bryant

I agree with this 100%. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Caldwell gets cut. They're going to continue to send a message that screwing up at the end of games will not be tolerated (see Shayne Graham). And who can forget about Caldwell's costly fumbles at the end of games? Granted, he did score the go ahead touchdown at Baltimore iirc, but I see Shipley taking his spot in the slot, so his only contribution would be as the fourth or fifth wideout or on special teams. And there's no way Caldwell will be on special teams returning kickoffs again, so he'll have to beat out Simpson, Briscoe, Cosby, Purify, etc. for those last few receiver spots, without the advantage of being a special teams contributor. I could be wrong, but I don't see it happening.

I understand the irrational post-draft exuberance, but I fully expect Caldwell to be the #3 WR this season. I think the fanbase generally is letting a few bad plays near the end of the season eclipse what was a fairly solid season for Caldwell. Simply put, I don't think he's nearly as bad a WR or as close to the bubble as most on this board seem to think. Just my opinion, but I'm gonna say there's no way a 3rd year receiver with at least decent production gets outright cut in favor of a rookie slot receiver.

I actually found myself cursing Caldwell more than Coles at season's end. That's Bad. Should he be cut? Probably not. Should he be our #3 WR? Definitely not!

Well if you hate Shipley and you dont want caldwell to be our 3# who is then Matt Jones?

I never said I hated Shipley. I just said, I don't know how his game will translate to the NFL, and made the P-Dub comparisons, when everyone else was calling him Wes Welker.

Again, he was a highly productive college WR, but that doesn't guarantee anything in the NFL.

I hope he does well, and I will say that I like our picks this year (Shipley,Briscoe) a lot more than '08 (Simpson,Caldwell), as I think they have more "Potential".

[TJJackson]

Did he also happen to say which wideouts the Bengals will be drafting next year in the 2nd and 3rd and 6th rounds?

POST

OF

THE

WEEK

*laughing uncontrollably*

[BengalPimp]

Just to add a little to the conversation, Todd McShay (who I don't care for) has his 2011 mock draft up for ESPN insiders and guess who he has the Bengals taking ??

Julio Jones, WR, Alabama

Peter Schrager (fox sports) has Julio Jones going #2 overall to Tampa Bay....of course he's an Idiot since he has WR being the #1 (A.J. Green to Rams) and #2 (Jones) picks....Never EVER will we see WR's go #1 and #2.

Mock Drafts a year ahead of time is kind of like playing lottery with the lucky numbers in a fortune cookie. If you get even 1 # right, it's just dumb luck.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/lists/2011-NFL-mock-draft-042710#sport=NFL&photo=11166935

[HairOnFire]

Pouncey in 2010.

Pouncey in 2011?

[ArmyBengal]

2011 ??

Yeah, safety is a priority with both Roy and Crocker a year older.

O-line ?? Sure enough

RB ?? Yep, that to

Go ahead and pencil in a WR as well, because you just know it's going to happen.

[HoosierCat]

Which sort of begs the question of why so many young wideouts were drafted in the first place, doesn't it?

Not at all. The Np. 3 spot is open right now, and the No. 1 may be come this time next year.

[HairOnFire]

The Np. 3 spot is open right now...

Still open? Even after the Bengals churned and burned their fourth 3rd round pick in 8 years on this complimentary part-time position? Meanwhile, Caldwell had 51 receptions last year...15 more than the so-called key to everything, Chris Henry, managed to grab in his best season. And before anyone mentions it, Caldwell scored more TD's last year than Henry managed to produce in any of his last three seasons.

...and the No. 1 may be come this time next year.

So the position may finally open up two years after Chad's replacement has been replaced? Well call me crazy but that doesn't sound like good timing to me.

[HoosierCat]

Still open? Even after the Bengals churned and burned their fourth 3rd round pick in 8 years on this complimentary part-time position?

Now we're going all the way back to Kelly Washington? Sheesh, even if he was still here, he'd would be among the candidates for replacement soon, right? And regardless, considering he's done as little since he left as he did here, it's hard to see him as an example of one who got away. The next guy, Henry is, sadly, dead. On paper, Caldwell has the size and speed to replace him, and will likely get the opportunity to show he can (or can't) this year. Shipley isn't a replacement for Henry, but for TJ.

So the position may finally open up two years after Chad's replacement has been replaced? Well call me crazy but that doesn't sound like good timing to me.

It isn't -- which IMO is a big part of the reason they signed Bryant. If he does show the No. 1 skills some here believe he's got, he gives them options in 2011, when they'd have to hand $5 million to Chad to keep him -- and both of us know how Chad's likely to react to staying on a one-year deal, especially one he's sure to feel is below his station.

[Kazkal]

Still open? Even after the Bengals churned and burned their fourth 3rd round pick in 8 years on this complimentary part-time position? Meanwhile, Caldwell had 51 receptions last year...15 more than the so-called key to everything, Chris Henry, managed to grab in his best season. And before anyone mentions it, Caldwell scored more TD's last year than Henry managed to produce in any of his last three seasons.

I have nothing against Caldwell hence why I'd like to see him get more time on outside where people so anal about having someone who can be a 1 or 2,Wont here arguement from about Chris vs Caldwell because all last preseason Isaid there was a reason Caldwell was 3# ahead of chris...Now theres a reason they picked up Shipley maybe it's so Caldwell get more time on the outside "shrug" wont know until season starts.

[ArmyBengal]

Wont know until season starts.

Yeah, but it's fun to speculate and argue about...

[HairOnFire]

Now we're going all the way back to Kelly Washington?

Should I add him to the ever growing list of wasted assets that you refuse to consider simply because they don't help your rant?

Sheesh, even if he was still here, he'd would be among the candidates for replacement soon, right?

I'd say the more relevant point has to do with the Bengals habit of drafting 3rd round WR's only to replace them two years later. Because they've done it three times already, and Shipley would make four.

Shipley isn't a replacement for Henry, but for TJ.

The skill sets are different, but Housh was the #2 starter....a role Antonio Bryant now fills even though you refuse to acknowledge it. Shipley, like the lengthening parade of burned picks that came before, is yet another part-timer who'll probably never challenge for either starting position.

If he [brayant] does show the No. 1 skills some here believe he's got, he gives them options in 2011, when they'd have to hand $5 million to Chad to keep him...

And again, why wouldn't the Bengals do that?

....and both of us know how Chad's likely to react to staying on a one-year deal, especially one he's sure to feel is below his station.

So you're worried about Chad feeling so underpaid he tanks another season? So remind me again why I'm supposed to forgive Chad, or at the very least stop criticizing his antics, when you admit the threat to tank ANOTHER season is realistic?

Finally, and I can't believe I'm writing this, the Bengals likely represent Chad's best hope for another multi-year contract and the signing bonus that comes with it.

[COB]

Finally, and I can't believe I'm writing this, the Bengals likely represent Chad's best hope for another multi-year contract and the signing bonus that comes with it.

Which part of my skull do I have to drill into to grind out the part of my brain that remembers reading the above? Because I'll do it.

Chad won't get another contract, because he'll show up for camp this year slowed by chlamydia, gonorrhea, syphilis, and whatever else the VHI skanks he swaps fluids with on his man-whore show care to infect him with. His 4 children by 3 different baby-mamas prove he's too stupid to wrap it up.

[HoosierCat]

Now we're going all the way back to Kelly Washington?

Should I add him to the ever growing list of wasted assets that you refuse to consider simply because they don't help your rant?

He doesn't do much for your rant, either. Back in '03, we had one young stud (Chad) and a bust (Warrick). TJ was a bit player who would miss all of '03 and not emerge for another year.

I'd say the more relevant point has to do with the Bengals habit of drafting 3rd round WR's only to replace them two years later. Because they've done it three times already, and Shipley would make four.

That's what happens when guys don't pan out. Go argue the strategy with that guy who coaches up in New England if you want.

The skill sets are different, but Housh was the #2 starter....a role Antonio Bryant now fills even though you refuse to acknowledge it. Shipley, like the lengthening parade of burned picks that came before, is yet another part-timer who'll probably never challenge for either starting position.

Well, we're going to find out, aren't we?

And again, why wouldn't the Bengals do that?

For the same reason you went on in your very next sentence to call for giving him a new long-term deal.

[HairOnFire]

He [Kdub] doesn't do much for your rant, either.

You mean besides the way he helps flesh out the pattern of drafting a WR in the 3rd round, only to draft his replacement two years later? Because the Bengals are now guilty of doing that very thing four times in eight years. And again, that's only one way assets are being wasted. There's also the annual waste of at least one late round pick on a WR targeted for the practice squad, and finally....repeated examples of 1st and 2nd round picks being burned on backup or complimentary offensive skill positions. And here's the rub. You defend and support continuing the above strategy precisely because it hasn't produced a thing.

That's what happens when guys don't pan out.

If you repeatedly attempt to hit the nail on the head, but each time you hit your finger instead...shouldn't you put the hammer down?