Marvin Wants change

[Kazkal]

Sounds like Marvin wants to Rangle more power from Mr Brown...good to hear imo he should get final say on his staff

Marvin Lewis hints at "things" holding up contract extension

Posted by Michael David Smith on February 26, 2010 2:05 PM ET

Cincinnati Bengals coach Marvin Lewis went on at some length when asked at the NFL scouting combine about the status of talks to extend his contract. But he offered little more than vague hints about certain "things" that need to get done before he'll re-sign with the team.

Lewis, who was named Associated Press coach of the year in 2009, has just one year left on his contract. He suggested when meeting with reporters that the issues he wants resolved before he'll sign a new deal have more to do with the structure of the team than how much money he'll make.

"There's a lot of things that go into that. In the direction of things that we're doing and how we're doing things that are important to me," Lewis said, per Joe Reedy of the Cincinnati Enquirer. "There were things when I started in this job in 2003 that were important and we can't change those. They have to stay on track and I have to make sure we're continuing to progress that way. Those are the things that are more important to me as anything.

"I'm talking about structure, decision and how we do things and how I have the ability to do things that give us an opportunity to win football games."

Lewis wouldn't name any of those "things" in particular, but the "things" presumably involve making sure Lewis will have the autonomy to make the decisions he wants on matters related to personnel and his coaching staff. Whatever the "things" are, Lewis says he's not stressing the final year of his contract.

"I can't worry, I'm not going to," Lewis said. "The most important thing is what we do on the field in 2010. That's the most important thing for those 53 guys we end up with and the most important thing for those 53 guys we end up with and those coaches I have. Not whether I have a contract or not."

[HairOnFire]

No worries.

[HoosierCat]

I'm sure that there are a lot of things. I'm also sure that those things can be expressed as dollars and cents.

Same as it ever was.

[BengalszoneBilly]

No worries.

None? Not one?

Personally I have quite a few, and they mostly reside on the offensive side of the ball. Carson Palmer faltered as did the entire passing game down the stretch. This was the very facet of the Bengals game that put them in playoff position to begin with by sweeping the division.

What happened? Was it the pass protection? Possibly, but it seemed just as fierce as in the games when he made those throws.

Was it the play calling? This I'm more likely to believe, but I witnessed him audible out of strong coverage to throw out of such situations early in the season.

Maybe you know something I don't, but if you do, please share Hair.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

We'll see where this leads. Marvin-speak is usually silly media-safe gibberish like this, that you have to interpret, but is unusual for him to elaborate to that extent. It's all relative, but this sounds like it's about more than $.

He may have options after next year.

[SupaBran]

We'll see where this leads. Marvin-speak is usually silly media-safe gibberish like this, that you have to interpret, but is unusual for him to elaborate to that extent. It's all relative, but this sounds like it's about more than $.

He may have options after next year.

I agree...I think this has nothing to do with money. I think Marvin wants to be successful and knows how to do it and Mike Brown also knows exactly how to f**k it up. Marvin doesn't want to commit to a situation where Mike Brown cares more about power than being successful like Al Davis.

I'm worried Mike Brown won't give up power and Marvin will leave and we'll go back to being s**tty with no direction.

[Stripes]

How long has it been since Mike Brown made a decision (known to the whining public) that was clearly and undeniably an error and contributed heavily to losing football games?

[Whur CHad At?]

Why re-sign a coach who cant win in the playoffs? Or even get the team ready for the playoffs(resting your players with no playoff expierence doesn't work). He didnt deserve coach of the year and if I were him I would be looking for a job as a posistion coach next year somewhere else.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

How long has it been since Mike Brown made a decision (known to the whining public) that was clearly and undeniably an error and contributed heavily to losing football games?

I doubt that you're that naive.

[kingwilly]

How long has it been since Mike Brown made a decision (known to the whining public) that was clearly and undeniably an error and contributed heavily to losing football games?

Are you kidding with this?

[Kazkal]

agreed about it not being about money but simply doesn't want things forced jim like an OC cough cough

[HAPPYJAQ]

Marvin simply wants full control over roster decisions that are made, and he should. After all, it's the head coaches livelihood that is at stake if they don't win football games.

It's clear that Marvin and Mike have different ideas on how to build the best possible football team, from a personnel standpoint. I think Mike has relented some over the past year or two, but it's still not enough to satisfy Marvin.

I remember a point during "Hard Knocks", when they questioned Marvin on that exact issue, and he acknowledged the decision-making process on players, and Marvin basically said that Mike Brown makes all the final decisions.

The downer is that as the son of the great Paul Brown, Mike will never allow for someone else to make football decisions without Mike's input and the ability/option to override his own coaches' decisions on player personnel. Same reason we've never had a GM.

I'll be surprised if a coach as talented as Marvin Lewis will re-sign here without the ability to get his own players, or the players he thinks gives him the best chance to win on Sundays, without the threat of veto by the Owner.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

How long has it been since Mike Brown made a decision (known to the whining public) that was clearly and undeniably an error and contributed heavily to losing football games?

TDB, I'd like you to meet Laverneus Coles. Laverneus, TDB.

[Kazkal]

How long has it been since Mike Brown made a decision (known to the whining public) that was clearly and undeniably an error and contributed heavily to losing football games?

I'd put money down that we would see change on the offensive coaching staff

[Stripes]

How long has it been since Mike Brown made a decision (known to the whining public) that was clearly and undeniably an error and contributed heavily to losing football games?

TDB, I'd like you to meet Laverneus Coles. Laverneus, TDB.

When faced with that response, all I can do is shrug. I certainly understand why you'd call that signing an error, and I'd be inclined to agree. I might even agree that it contributed heavily to our seven losses in 2009/10, but not without hesitation.

Still, isn't that one we can quickly forgive? We needed a quick replacement for Houshmandzadeh, and everyone demanded a free agent signing to fill the hole... so we signed one of the biggest names on the market. Error or not, it was a move quite unlike those Brown has made in the past that have caused him such a foul reputation. It was a move that We the Idiot Fans applauded, and surely other owners and GMs would have attempted to make the same error had we not done so first.

So, if anyone is keeping score, we have one potential error in Coles.

What others were there? What else did Mikey do to ruin our playoff football team recently?

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

It was a move that We the Idiot Fans applauded

I didn't. They paid almost as much money as TJ for a guy who was, even before the signing, clearly on his last legs. That's where scouts would come in handy. Or, hell, even reading Jets message boards - they were clearly glad to see the ass of him. And yes, the guy absolutely killed us last year.

What others were there? What else did Mikey do to ruin our playoff football team recently?

Screwing up the Rogers deal. One can claim that he might not have been necessary anyway, but losing out on a FA because you botch the cap rules screams "amateur hour". Again, you can argue that two stupids cancelled each other out there (attempting to sign him, then losing out), but it's still laughable.

Also, I think the nature of your premise misses the point. I would argue that the damage is still done primarily in a lack of scouting, which means he's still relegated to rolling the dice on high-risk guys (Benson, Tank, Matt Jones, Andre the Hut). He's even taken a look at PacMan and Vick Sometimes those pan out, sometimes they don't. He's on a hot streak lately, which worries me - seriously, between the dirtbags we have and the ones we've brought in, we've got them all except Leonard Little.

But in the end, what's your argument - that at his advanced age, Mikey's had a career renaissance and figured out the trick to running a team? That pumpkin's the prodigy we always hoped she'd be? To tie this back into the thread, if things are better now, it's because he's given Marvin more leeway in running the team. I'd say maintaining that trend is the best thing he could do. Unfortunately, the nature of Marvin's comments is worrying, because it sounds like Mike's hot streak has him wanting to take back some control. If it happens, I don't see it ending well.

[derekshank]

It was a move that We the Idiot Fans applauded

I didn't. They paid almost as much money as TJ for a guy who was, even before the signing, clearly on his last legs. That's where scouts would come in handy. Or, hell, even reading Jets message boards - they were clearly glad to see the ass of him. And yes, the guy absolutely killed us last year.

What others were there? What else did Mikey do to ruin our playoff football team recently?

Screwing up the Rogers deal. One can claim that he might not have been necessary anyway, but losing out on a FA because you botch the cap rules screams "amateur hour". Again, you can argue that two stupids cancelled each other out there (attempting to sign him, then losing out), but it's still laughable.

Also, I think the nature of your premise misses the point. I would argue that the damage is still done primarily in a lack of scouting, which means he's still relegated to rolling the dice on high-risk guys (Benson, Tank, Matt Jones, Andre the Hut). He's even taken a look at PacMan and Vick Sometimes those pan out, sometimes they don't. He's on a hot streak lately, which worries me - seriously, between the dirtbags we have and the ones we've brought in, we've got them all except Leonard Little.

But in the end, what's your argument - that at his advanced age, Mikey's had a career renaissance and figured out the trick to running a team? That pumpkin's the prodigy we always hoped she'd be? To tie this back into the thread, if things are better now, it's because he's given Marvin more leeway in running the team. I'd say maintaining that trend is the best thing he could do. Unfortunately, the nature of Marvin's comments is worrying, because it sounds like Mike's hot streak has him wanting to take back some control. If it happens, I don't see it ending well.

I'm assuming his point is that people bitch about Mike Brown more out of habit than anything else.

I'm inclined to agree. Marvin and Brown built a playoff team in '05, watched it age and die, and then in incredibly quick fashion rebuild another playoff team with a great draft and necessary free agents... free agents of the kind everyone bitches that Brown never gets.

And after a turnaround from a laughingstock to a playoff team, people are still making the same complaints.

Being a Bengal fan has given me plenty of reasons to wallow in pity... but none more than the fact that I'm surrounded by a fanbase that continues to live in the 90's despite the fact that the team has moved on.

[ct_bengal]

Mike Brown is undeniably the problem. And as much as I like Zimmer, letting Marvin walk would be a huge mistake

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'm inclined to agree. Marvin and Brown built a playoff team in '05, watched it age and die, and then in incredibly quick fashion rebuild another playoff team with a great draft and necessary free agents... free agents of the kind everyone bitches that Brown never gets.

I give Marvin more of the credit for that, in terms of building a professional organization. Mike rolled the dice on some high-risk guys, and he's gotten some to pay off. Good for him. My point is that keeping Marvin's involvement high is the best case scenario. If Marvin's comments indicate a reversion to how business was conducted in the 90s, then I'm definitely concerned that similar results will return.

And after a turnaround from a laughingstock to a playoff team, people are still making the same complaints.

That's missing the point - the current story is based on an assumption that, buoyed by some recent success, Mike might be reverting to 90s Mike. My point is simple, and largely overlaps with what you're saying - what we have now is working better than it has in 20 years, so DON'T SCREW IT UP. My fear is that Mikey is contemplating expanding his role at the expense of Marvin's, and that isn't a real good idea.

[derekshank]

I'm inclined to agree. Marvin and Brown built a playoff team in '05, watched it age and die, and then in incredibly quick fashion rebuild another playoff team with a great draft and necessary free agents... free agents of the kind everyone bitches that Brown never gets.

I give Marvin more of the credit for that, in terms of building a professional organization. Mike rolled the dice on some high-risk guys, and he's gotten some to pay off. Good for him. My point is that keeping Marvin's involvement high is the best case scenario. If Marvin's comments indicate a reversion to how business was conducted in the 90s, then I'm definitely concerned that similar results will return.

And after a turnaround from a laughingstock to a playoff team, people are still making the same complaints.

That's missing the point - the current story is based on an assumption that, buoyed by some recent success, Mike might be reverting to 90s Mike. My point is simple, and largely overlaps with what you're saying - what we have now is working better than it has in 20 years, so DON'T SCREW IT UP. My fear is that Mikey is contemplating expanding his role at the expense of Marvin's, and that isn't a real good idea.

Mike rolled the dice on some high-risk guys? Yep. How is that different from what he's always done? It's not.

Is that all Mike Brown did this offseason? How about the draft class he brought in, that even Marvin Lewis is quick to admit was more Mike Brown than himself. Or how about the number of free agents he signed to short term contracts. Guys that other teams wanted to lowball to long term contracts, but that Mike Brown was willing to pay them in a way that would benefit both parties. Mike Brown was the one who found a way to attract free agents to a team that no one thought would be competitive.

And you're fear that Mike Brown will "SCREW IT UP" is the same s**t I'm talking about. It's not the 90's anymore. Quit living in the past.

You want to give Marvin all the credit and Mike Brown none of it? Fine. Guess who brought him to Cincinnati, and gave him an extension even when things didn't seem to be going so great?

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

And you're fear that Mike Brown will "SCREW IT UP" is the same s**t I'm talking about. It's not the 90's anymore. Quit living in the past.

Why wouldn't I fear that he'd screw it up? If the only difference between 2003-2009 is Marvin, then I want Marvin as much in charge as possible. Again, what's your alternate theory, that Mikey turned into an NFL personnel Rain Man at age 60? Unlikely. Since things turned around when Marvin arrived and only when Marvin arrived, the simplest answer is that Marvin's responsible. Rocket science this ain't.

You want to give Marvin all the credit and Mike Brown none of it? Fine. Guess who brought him to Cincinnati, and gave him an extension even when things didn't seem to be going so great?

Which is, in a nutshell, my point. Bringing Marvin to Cincinnati was the single best decision Mikey's ever made. So what better idea than to step aside and let the man do his job, as opposed to reverting to a way of business that was a spectacular failure? If Marvin says Marvin needs some change out of Mikey, do I believe him? You betcha. And since Marvin's the only one of the two who has credibility as a winner in the NFL, you should believe him too.

[HairOnFire]

No worries.

None? Not one?

Not one.

At least not in regards to Marvin and Mikey eventually working "things" out before agreeing to a new multi-year contract extension.

Things WILL get done.

In fact, I think Marvin and Mike have a very strong personal relationship and have been involved in fewer public conflicts in their business partnership than any owner and head coach you might care to mention.

So what might those vague "things" Marvin mentioned be?

Well, my first guess would be related to Marvin asking for more money. What's a coach of the year award worth? My second guess would relate to where the Bengals might be headed in regards to long term spending strategies in todays uncertain economy and an NFL operating without a CBA. Lewis needs to be onboard with where this team is headed in regards to total spending in a future that may not have a spending ceiling or floor. Last, there have been rumors dating back to the day Marvin was hired about him desiring a front office role in Cincy after he retires from coaching. If there's any truth to those rumors they would have to be dealt with now, before Lewis signs a 2nd long-term contract.

And yeah, he will do just that.

No worries.

[walzav29]

This is a real big deal. We need Marvin. Thats as good as Mike Brown is going to get. Any of you that don't like Marv must have missed the 90's. What he's done is miraculous.

[Kazkal]

I don't think coles was a bad move when we did it and like you said most teams would done same thing after losing TJ...Plus I Wouldn't doubt if COles was a guy Marvin wanted after getting rid of TJ who had been one of the real douchebags...

But I'd like to see Marvin be able to have his say on The Offensive couching Staff,When he came here he was Forced to keep Alexander as his Assistant Head Coach / Brat as a OC and do you think if it was up to Marvin Brat would still be here? he wouldn't want to pick his own guy by now?

[Stripes]

But in the end, what's your argument - that at his advanced age, Mikey's had a career renaissance and figured out the trick to running a team?

Nah. I simply think he was never quite the slobbery-lipped feet-dragger that Bengaldom has always assumed him to be. He's changed a bit since the '90s, but only a bit.

My argument is that the line between failure and success as an NFL owner is terribly thin, and the influence of chance on just about everything in football is far too often ignored. Whining fans prefer to assign specific blame on someone or something, even when it is utterly silly.

As for Marvin's comments? Not surprisingly I think they're being taken a bit too seriously here, because as I read it he is stating the obvious: Things aren't perfect here. Let's try and get better. I want to keep my options open. If he's referring to anything deeper, I'd be inclined to accept Hair's moderate theory a few posts above before I'd accept the far more predictable and loud theories all over the thread regarding Mike Brown's competence.