Any chance Andre Smith is signed...ever?

[ArmyBengal]

Just saw the little blurb in the Watson article about Andre being moved to 3rd on the depth chart.

Obviously that can and probably will change, but it's was just something I noticed...

[BengalByTheBay]

Perfect example of why it's very hard to maintain any sort of real optimism as a fan of this team. I try though, really I do.

Child please!

[Ickey44]

Well, that's where he should be right now. He's missed a week of practice. He can't just be thrown in as the starter just cause he signs a contract. He's going to have to earn it.

[Clackwoods]

Well, that's where he should be right now. He's missed a week of practice. He can't just be thrown in as the starter just cause he signs a contract. He's going to have to earn it.

There was a report on ESPn that they are 7 million dollars apart. I don't know about you, but I count on him being out until at least the third preseason game!

[derekshank]

Well, that's where he should be right now. He's missed a week of practice. He can't just be thrown in as the starter just cause he signs a contract. He's going to have to earn it.

There was a report on ESPn that they are 7 million dollars apart. I don't know about you, but I count on him being out until at least the third preseason game!

Yeah. And the report I heard said the Bengals latest offer is still less than Heyward Bey's. I understand the Oakland screwed the system up here, but if I'm Smith, I see no reason to sign that deal.

[membengal]

There isn't, which is why he won't be in anytime soon. Eventually, the Bengals will grudgingly come off the "principle" of the matter, and there will be reports of real "movement" toward a deal. That should be by the end of this week/early next if history is a guide. Then, there will be the inevitable hold-up over incentives, and the Bengals insistence they be meaningful, Smith's agent will dig in, and a few more weeks will pass.

Then, again, after pre-season week 3, there will be a mini-cave from Smith's agent, the Bengals will get their incentive goals by and large, but kick in a bit more money at the end in guarantees.

The bigger question for me, since this is the same song and dance every single year, is why both sides can't be real about this inevitable process and cut out the four week delay...

[Kazkal]

Well, that's where he should be right now. He's missed a week of practice. He can't just be thrown in as the starter just cause he signs a contract. He's going to have to earn it.

There was a report on ESPn that they are 7 million dollars apart. I don't know about you, but I count on him being out until at least the third preseason game!

Yeah. And the report I heard said the Bengals latest offer is still less than Heyward Bey's. I understand the Oakland screwed the system up here, but if I'm Smith, I see no reason to sign that deal.

The Bengals Gambled waiting to be slotted,Yes Oakland screwed the deal but it's how system works even if it's messed up....

[HairOnFire]

Given that Reedy's report said that the Bengals and Team Smith hadn't spoken since Monday the 3rd, and that DHB was signed July 30, my bet is that the $33 million represents an offer made in late July prior to the DHB deal.

Exactly. The numbers leaked are obviously from an offer that was made before DHB signed, and while said to be a so-called lowball offer are actually higher than the #6 slot settled for last year. So the entire lowball rant is mostly crap....as the offer WAS very respectable, especially if it was an opening bid.

At this point, I'm guessing that the Bengals know they'll have to give Smith more than DHB....

Exactly. They know they'll have to pay more and I'm betting they're willing to pay more than DHB got without much hesitation, making the whole argument about them attempting to ignore the slotting system...mostly crap. But this is how the story will be written UNTIL there's an actual agreement in place with new numbers to poke and prod.

So Mikey keeps his money in the bank, earning interest for him and not Smith, for a few more weeks.

That's almost too silly to respond to.....so this is all you get.

[Bearcat1975]

The benefit of the doubt some of you give the Bengals Front Office is unbelievable.

Especially when they do the same thing year after year.

Lowball the hell out of their first rounder, then play the waiting game. Sometimes the agents cave, most of the time they don't.

Sometimes it honestly seems like sabotage. Either sabotage or complete incompetence. Just because everyone could see this coming a mile away doesn't make it any less irritating as a Bengals fan.

There is no reasonable logic to not paying a guy what his slot is worth. Another year, another lowball.

Now here is the truly sad part. The Bengals think they have the cards because they have Collins and Whit at the bookends. Now watch one of them go down, then look who their backups are:

On the offensive line, Augustus Parrish is the backup left tackle and Dennis Roland is backing up Anthony Collins at right tackle.

Pretty lame strategy, Mike Brown. As usual.

[ArmyBengal]

Just because everyone could see this coming a mile away doesn't make it any less irritating as a Bengals fan.

I actually agree with another poster that made the comment about some of your posts being less irritating than the norm and I haven't engaged in the rants with you because of that, but YOU are one of the ones going on and on the most about being able to see this coming and here we are going through it and you act suprised coupled with additional outrages about what everyone already knows is going on. I also never suggested you not be irritated by what has become somewhat the norm, but to go on and on just seems a bit over the top when you knew it was coming all along.

Also Hair and others have already had the conversation about when the initial offer was placed, so the talk of lowballing is really out the door.

Has anyone else heard anything about the Bengals thinking they are holding all the cards because they have Whit and Collins at the ends ?? I haven't seen anything of that nature, but if you have, I would actually like to read it.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Exactly. The numbers leaked are obviously from an offer that was made before DHB signed

All this is, of course, contingent on the timing of the offer relative to Heyward-Bay's contract. If it was from before DHB's, then I give them credit for trying to get ahead of the curve before The Cryptkeeper blew it. But surely they'd have modified their offer upon DHB's contract being announced? That's why I'm not so sure. I think they might have the gall to make such a pointless offer even after DHB's deal.

and while said to be a so-called lowball offer are actually higher than the #6 slot settled for last year. So the entire lowball rant is mostly crap....as the offer WAS very respectable, especially if it was an opening bid.

Come on, that's weak and you know it. They made an offer nearly identical to last year's #6...when the standard bump this year is on the order of 15%+. An offer that was below this year's #7. So yeah, lowball. Absolutely. I'm pretty sure you don't suck at math, so don't carry Mikey's water for him - he's got Hobson for that (sorry, couldn't resist).

Absent the discussions about the Bengals' tortured and soft-brained negotiating practices, this is clearly not a real offer. As we've discussed, they're using time and their exclusive negotiating rights to wear down the player and agent, even though the net result is worse for everybody. Doesn't make sense if your goal is to maximize W's.

[HairOnFire]

The benefit of the doubt some of you give the Bengals Front Office is unbelievable.

Be specific. Or do what you usually do....direct vague insults towards unknown posters who apparently said disturbing things you can't be bothered with repeating.

There is no reasonable logic to not paying a guy what his slot is worth.

And there's no reasonable logic in debating negotiating tactics when your dumbass doesn't know what those tactics are. In fact, all you know is what little information has been leaked, probably by one of the parties attempting to put public pressure on the other side.

Another year, another lowball.

It wasn't a lowball offer. In fact, when the offer was made it was 500k better than last years final slot price. Granted, that offer is obsolete now, but since it's all you know it's all you've got to complain about.

Now here is the truly sad part. The Bengals think they have the cards because they have Collins and Whit at the bookends.

Bulls**t. In fact, all you're doing now is quoting one dumb guys opinion as if it were your own.

Now watch one of them go down, then look who their backups are....

The worst case scenario has always been the saving grace of pinheads like you. First you bitch and moan about everything, and then if the worst case scenario pans out you look slightly less stupid because you can always argue a player would have been available if only the Bengals would have done what you wanted all along. But you never attempt to explain what you want in detail so it boils down to little more than...."Do it now or I'll whine some more."

But there's the rub because you were going to whine anyways....

[ArmyBengal]

John Thornton's take on this situation:

Bengals OT Andre Smith is in between a rock and a hard place. He wants to be in camp, but he cannot accept the rumored $33 million dollar deal that the Bengals are offering. The Bengals are feeling squeezed as well. They are not going to give Andre a 23% increase like the Raiders gave the WR Darrius Hayward-Bey at the 7 spot. Who’s to blame? I blame both parties. We all thought that there was no way that Andre Smith would be in camp on time. I wrote about this before the draft. In fact, that was one of the reasons I didn’t want the team to draft Andre. It is easier for another position to come in and play after a long holdout than it is for an OL, especially one that is changing positions. So if we knew this, why didn’t the team and agent know this? If I were the Bengals, I would have flipped out as soon as I found out that Al Davis and the Raiders were picking behind me. Al Davis doesn’t care about pay scales. He will even give guys more money than they are worth, just to screw up everyone else. The Raiders overpay free agents and the they overpay draft picks. That being said, the Bengals should have gotten the deal early. Maybe give Andre more than you were willing to give initially, but know that he will be in camp on time, and you won’t have to compete with the Raiders.

Andre’s agent Alvin Keels should have known that he was dealing with the Bengals. Playing hardball will not work. Owner Mike Brown will dig his feet in the ground and will not budge. One agent told me yesterday, “Alvin is in way over his head.” That wasn’t a knock on Alvin, just saying that the Bengals are tricky to deal with. And it takes an agent who can be creative and make the Bengals feel good about the deal, if he wants to get a major deal done. But Alvin probably feels that there is no way he is letting his client go to camp if he is not getting paid more than the guy drafted directed behind him. And Andre is sitting at home wondering what the heck is going on. I’m sure he is communicating with the Bengals, staying up on the play book. The coaches may even be trying to put pressure on Andre to accept the deal. Who knows? Something or someone has to give. The stage is set for the contract. Everyone else in the bottom of the top 10 are going to wait for this deal to get in.

/>http://www.allproblogger.com/2009/08/10/andre-smith-in-tough-spot/#more-2434

[Ickey44]

John Thornton's take on this situation:

Bengals OT Andre Smith is in between a rock and a hard place. He wants to be in camp, but he cannot accept the rumored $33 million dollar deal that the Bengals are offering. The Bengals are feeling squeezed as well. They are not going to give Andre a 23% increase like the Raiders gave the WR Darrius Hayward-Bey at the 7 spot. Who’s to blame? I blame both parties. We all thought that there was no way that Andre Smith would be in camp on time. I wrote about this before the draft. In fact, that was one of the reasons I didn’t want the team to draft Andre. It is easier for another position to come in and play after a long holdout than it is for an OL, especially one that is changing positions. So if we knew this, why didn’t the team and agent know this? If I were the Bengals, I would have flipped out as soon as I found out that Al Davis and the Raiders were picking behind me. Al Davis doesn’t care about pay scales. He will even give guys more money than they are worth, just to screw up everyone else. The Raiders overpay free agents and the they overpay draft picks. That being said, the Bengals should have gotten the deal early. Maybe give Andre more than you were willing to give initially, but know that he will be in camp on time, and you won’t have to compete with the Raiders.

Andre’s agent Alvin Keels should have known that he was dealing with the Bengals. Playing hardball will not work. Owner Mike Brown will dig his feet in the ground and will not budge. One agent told me yesterday, “Alvin is in way over his head.” That wasn’t a knock on Alvin, just saying that the Bengals are tricky to deal with. And it takes an agent who can be creative and make the Bengals feel good about the deal, if he wants to get a major deal done. But Alvin probably feels that there is no way he is letting his client go to camp if he is not getting paid more than the guy drafted directed behind him. And Andre is sitting at home wondering what the heck is going on. I’m sure he is communicating with the Bengals, staying up on the play book. The coaches may even be trying to put pressure on Andre to accept the deal. Who knows? Something or someone has to give. The stage is set for the contract. Everyone else in the bottom of the top 10 are going to wait for this deal to get in.

/>http://www.allproblogger.com/2009/08/10/andre-smith-in-tough-spot/#more-2434

I think the most disturbing thing is that neither side is communicating with the other. It's like nobody cares if he gets signed. I'm still not too worried about it, because I think Collins will do fine, but if they don't get him signed soon they just wasted their first round draft pick for this year.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

There isn't, which is why he won't be in anytime soon. Eventually, the Bengals will grudgingly come off the "principle" of the matter, and there will be reports of real "movement" toward a deal. That should be by the end of this week/early next if history is a guide. Then, there will be the inevitable hold-up over incentives, and the Bengals insistence they be meaningful, Smith's agent will dig in, and a few more weeks will pass.

Then, again, after pre-season week 3, there will be a mini-cave from Smith's agent, the Bengals will get their incentive goals by and large, but kick in a bit more money at the end in guarantees.

The bigger question for me, since this is the same song and dance every single year, is why both sides can't be real about this inevitable process and cut out the four week delay...

As far as I've seen/heard, and I agree with you on this annual process we all know too well, the Bengals haven't changed their initial offer yet, which is ridiculous. They need to get the ball rolling again, the agent has no incentive to accept what's out there. The Bengals show no sense of urgency, and it may come back to ruin their season when some scrub is protecting their $100mm franchise QB, and he gets hurt...again.

All I know is everyone around him is signed, but he is not. That's all I care about, not excuses.

[Ickey44]

All I know is everyone around him is signed, but he is not. That's all I care about, not excuses.

Well, that's the problem. There's not really any reason to try to negotiate total money. They only thing that they can haggle over is incentives, and the Bengals WILL haggle over that. Brown (normally) will not pay money to players who aren't producing.

It's still very telling that they haven't even communicated in over a week. The fault there is on both parties. Even if the Bengals are being stubborn that's no reason for Keels not to be on the phone every day trying to work something out and vice versa.

[ArmyBengal]

The incentives thing has always been the bigger of the two concerns in my opinion and I've stated so many occasions, but I figured one or more won't hurt. Anyway, I would like to see any article that someone can find that says the last time the two sides have sat down to discuss this. I'm not trying to bust someone out, rather, I really want to read it as I haven't been able to find anything.

[Ickey44]

The incentives thing has always been the bigger of the two concerns in my opinion and I've stated so many occasions, but I figured one or more won't hurt. Anyway, I would like to see any article that someone can find that says the last time the two sides have sat down to discuss this. I'm not trying to bust someone out, rather, I really want to read it as I haven't been able to find anything.

I read it somewhere. I think PFT or the dot com.

[COB]

All I know is everyone around him is signed, but he is not. That's all I care about, not excuses.

Is this true? I was under the impression that the 4 or 5 picks after Smith haven't signed either, all the negotiations being fouled by Al Davis' stupidity.

[Kazkal]

All I know is everyone around him is signed, but he is not. That's all I care about, not excuses.

Is this true? I was under the impression that the 4 or 5 picks after Smith haven't signed either, all the negotiations being fouled by Al Davis' stupidity.

Well part Al Davis Crazy Part Crabtree crazy.....But had Al Davis signed Crab Tree and gave him same contract as DHB maybe life would be abit easier.

[ArmyBengal]

All I know is everyone around him is signed, but he is not. That's all I care about, not excuses.

Is this true? I was under the impression that the 4 or 5 picks after Smith haven't signed either, all the negotiations being fouled by Al Davis' stupidity.

Well part Al Davis Crazy Part Crabtree crazy.....But had Al Davis signed Crab Tree and gave him same contract as DHB maybe life would be abit easier.

Then again, maybe not because then Crabtree's agent would still be trying to get him top 3 money since he sort of promised Crabtree he would go in the top 3. That's his agents stupidity that many teams are now paying for. That and the contract may have been bigger than the one DHB signed creating even more problems for the Bengals who aren't coming off of their price range at this point in time. Who knows though ??

[Ickey44]

All I know is everyone around him is signed, but he is not. That's all I care about, not excuses.

Is this true? I was under the impression that the 4 or 5 picks after Smith haven't signed either, all the negotiations being fouled by Al Davis' stupidity.

Well part Al Davis Crazy Part Crabtree crazy.....But had Al Davis signed Crab Tree and gave him same contract as DHB maybe life would be abit easier.

Then again, maybe not because then Crabtree's agent would still be trying to get him top 3 money since he sort of promised Crabtree he would go in the top 3. That's his agents stupidity that many teams are now paying for. That and the contract may have been bigger than the one DHB signed creating even more problems for the Bengals who aren't coming off of their price range at this point in time. Who knows though ??

I just don't understand the logic in letting other teams dictate your contracts. If you know this is how it is, get ahead of the game and get your guy signed before anyone else (see Davis, Al) can screw it up. Oh, well......he'll get here eventually I guess.

[Baraka]

the most troubling thing in all of this is not that he has not been signed (well maybe it is), but the two sides don't even seem to be talking. hopefully they are doing it so lowkey that not even hob has caught a whiff.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I just don't understand the logic in letting other teams dictate your contracts. If you know this is how it is, get ahead of the game and get your guy signed before anyone else (see Davis, Al) can screw it up. Oh, well......he'll get here eventually I guess.

Problem is, it takes two to tango. If I'm an agent (or anyone else who's watched football in the last 30 years), what I know is that Al Davis has a chubby for speedy wide receivers.

If my client is drafted at #6, and #7 is a speedy WR drafted by Al Davis, I'm not negotiating for real until Davis gives the WR a massive pile of cash. The team would have to seriously overwhelm me to get me to consider any offer until the WR behind me signs.

As we all know that's not Mikey's style. He's a wear-em-down, grind-it-out sort, wait-until-they're-desperate kind of guy. Kind of makes you wonder what the courtship process with Mrs. Brown was like. On second thought, I think I just ruined lunch.

[Kazkal]

All I know is everyone around him is signed, but he is not. That's all I care about, not excuses.

Is this true? I was under the impression that the 4 or 5 picks after Smith haven't signed either, all the negotiations being fouled by Al Davis' stupidity.

Well part Al Davis Crazy Part Crabtree crazy.....But had Al Davis signed Crab Tree and gave him same contract as DHB maybe life would be abit easier.

Then again, maybe not because then Crabtree's agent would still be trying to get him top 3 money since he sort of promised Crabtree he would go in the top 3. That's his agents stupidity that many teams are now paying for. That and the contract may have been bigger than the one DHB signed creating even more problems for the Bengals who aren't coming off of their price range at this point in time. Who knows though ??

I just don't understand the logic in letting other teams dictate your contracts. If you know this is how it is, get ahead of the game and get your guy signed before anyone else (see Davis, Al) can screw it up. Oh, well......he'll get here eventually I guess.

They took a gamble and loss,Now rather then paying up making everyone else suffer

the most troubling thing in all of this is not that he has not been signed (well maybe it is), but the two sides don't even seem to be talking. hopefully they are doing it so lowkey that not even hob has caught a whiff.

Indeed,Alvin Keels is the one twitter page I check out once a day simply in hope that he's atleast talking to the team.