Any chance Andre Smith is signed...ever?

[TJJackson]

from: http://twitter.com/ALVINKEELS

Leaving Cinci. Not any closer on a deal for Andre Smith. Mike Brown says "the ship has sailed on the slotting system".

[ShulaSteakhouse]

So "the ship has sailed on the slotting system" because one owner over-paid their guy?

Why do the Bengals' bother drafting troublesome top 10 picks like this? They are the last team that should be doing so. I figure they'll end up caving on both ends after this week, possibly, but it seems so pointless and counter-productive.

[walzav29]

I'm starting to hope he just sits out the season and re-enters the draft. Brown is getting waaaay carried away with these 1st rnd negotiations maybe if he loses one he could realize that it's not the best way to conduct a football team.

[Ickey44]

I'm starting to hope he just sits out the season and re-enters the draft. Brown is getting waaaay carried away with these 1st rnd negotiations maybe if he loses one he could realize that it's not the best way to conduct a football team.

Smith will also lose millions. There's no way he gets drafted this high next year if he sits.

[derekshank]

With the Pollack holdout, Marvin negotiated through the media and actually did a good job of making Pollack appear like the unreasonable one. In fact... I rarely heard an analyst blame anyone but Pollack for the holdout.

The opposite is occuring with Keels using his Twitter while Mike Brown says nothing. I'm wondering how much Mike Brown is hoping to use Hard Knocks this week to try to appear like the reasonable one. So far, the Bengals look really bad as a front office. I'm wondering if we'll see any of the negotiations aired this week... and how Brown might try to use it for damage control.

[Baraka]

it's kind of ironic that mike brown says "the ship has sailed on the slotting system", after using that same system as leverage to be the last guy to sign their pick every damn year. as soon as it's not beneficial to be told what to pay your guy it's abandoned.

[volcom69]

I still wanna know they drafted a guy at 6 when they new they were going to have to pay him big money. If they werent ready to pay then they should have never drafted here. Sometimes i swear this is the most embarressing team in the league

[Ickey44]

I would sort of argue that in the reverse - he did so little to prepare for the last combine, I'll give you odds that his "in shorts" measurables are a lot better next year. Doesn't have those pesky classes at Alabama to get in the way (OK, almost said that with a straight face), and he won't make the same mistakes again.

He can't go to the combine next year. If he sits, the Bengals hold his rights right up until draft day next year. Smith can't work the combine unless the Bengals let him and I seriously doubt that will happen.

[jjakq27]

So "the ship has sailed on the slotting system" because one owner over-paid their guy?

Why do the Bengals' bother drafting troublesome top 10 picks like this? They are the last team that should be doing so. I figure they'll end up caving on both ends after this week, possibly, but it seems so pointless and counter-productive.

I agree. Is it worth drafting a guy that can't help you immediately? How many times has that happened?

Why not trade down and get two good, solid picks that can be signed and help out right away rather than one that may not see the field this year? If there are no game changers like a great running back or a QB like Palmer, then I would abandon ship, to coin another nautical phrase, and trade down into the lower 1st round. I think risk-reward at these kind of numbers is just not worth it.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Has Mikey or Katie claimed the banner of Crusader Against Rookie Wealth, or is that a frustrated accusation from Bengaldom without realistic basis? I don't like the way negotiations have gone at all, and I do fault the Bengals for ignoring the slotting system made necessary by majority participation. I don't think anyone is trying to make a philosophical statement though.

It's hard to read, since the only thing that Katie bleats is "It's a lot of money, Alvin". Not sure exactly what that means, but when you're ignoring the slotting system, you seem to be making a stand of some kind. Unless they've just decided they have buyers' remorse.

Actually, here's my new theory: the way Katie keeps repeating the same statement ("it's a lot of money"), I think she's finally gone crazy and decided she's a Jedi. She's trying to "mind trick" poor Alvin Keels. So far, it seems not to be working.

[Ickey44]

Not sure exactly what that means, but when you're ignoring the slotting system, you seem to be making a stand of some kind.

Precisely. When you say that "that ship has sailed" and you are ignoring the system, then you're pretty much taking a stand against whether you mean to or not.

[Pidge]

Indeed but we'll have a Morale victory because Mike Brown showed that he's not gonna take any gruff from 1st round picks!!!

Cheers. Hopefully the rarely witnessed doesn't happen then or what a frigging waste of an opportunity. Pay him and trade down next time you dips**ts!

[Kazkal]

Indeed but we'll have a Morale victory because Mike Brown showed that he's not gonna take any gruff from 1st round picks!!!

Cheers. Hopefully the rarely witnessed doesn't happen then or what a frigging waste of an opportunity. Pay him and trade down next time you dips**ts!

True that...Glad to see Marvin least gave atidbit about Andre would make us a better team if he was on the field :| vs Mike Browns stratagy of oh we have below average starter we'll be fine!Running back's don't need holes

[Pidge]

I know Mike is meant to be a pretty smart guy (although a couple of my friend are lawyers and I know them to be utter retards, bless their little cotton socks) but he doesn't act like it. Shrewd negotiator?

Best bet, he signs a contract more to the Bengals' liking. For 4 yrs. Which is pointless and negates the, hopefully, long term stability a top 10 pick brings to the organisation.

Mikey, take a stand with a 4th rnd pick next time mmkay? It'll help my heartburn.

[Kazkal]

Best bet, he signs a contract more to the Bengals' liking. For 4 yrs. Which is pointless and negates the, hopefully, long term stability a top 10 pick brings to the organisation.

Don't think it's too bad by the 5th year you know if hes a franchise tackle and give him a contract he's worth which by this point mikey's loyalty should kick in....Worst case franchise if he deserves it

[Pidge]

Best bet, he signs a contract more to the Bengals' liking. For 4 yrs. Which is pointless and negates the, hopefully, long term stability a top 10 pick brings to the organisation.

Don't think it's too bad by the 5th year you know if hes a franchise tackle and give him a contract he's worth which by this point mikey's loyalty should kick in....Worst case franchise if he deserves it

Good point. Hell, even if he sucks in 4 yrs time he'll probably get the phat loyalty contract after all.

[TJJackson]

Owner: Brown family wont sign him for anything close to 7th pick money

Agent: Keels can't take less or he'll never get a client again, also probably won't if his client sits out til next year

Player: Looking at signing next year for millions less

Solution: Player fires Agent, signs 4 year contract for last year's pick 6 money + 1% or thereabouts

Why this solution works for all parties:

Owner saves money - Brown family does not care as much about player development as they do player pay

Agent saves face - no client of his signed a lower than market value contract

Player earns more than he would have if he sat out a year and re-enters 2010 draft, can (and will, angrily) leave the team that underpaid him after 4 years as a FA (assuming the CBA is reupped) or sign for 2 more years and is a free agent at 6 years (in his prime) if the CBA is not re-upped

[HoosierCat]

Player earns more than he would have if he sat out a year and re-enters 2010 draft, can (and will, angrily) leave the team that underpaid him after 4 years as a FA (

And therein lies the rub. Mikey is working his damndest to create an instantly disgruntled player, thus guaranteeing that the Bengals don't get Smith's best effort, whether it's on the field, watching his weight, or growing up. So Brown "saves" a few million, but at the same time greatly increases the likelihood that Smith busts.

I think that's a pretty good definition of the old cliche about being penny wise and pound foolish.

[agreen_112]

I'm not a fan of this side of the game.. I don't know anything about the salary cap or anything related to signing rookies or free agents. I just don't get into it. I don't care enough about it to understand it. But this is frusterating.

So, can someone, in short form, please explain to me what both sides argument is? What's the deal with this "slotting" thing?

[TJJackson]

*wrong thread, admins please remove this post*

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'm not a fan of this side of the game.. I don't know anything about the salary cap or anything related to signing rookies or free agents. I just don't get into it. I don't care enough about it to understand it. But this is frusterating.

So, can someone, in short form, please explain to me what both sides argument is? What's the deal with this "slotting" thing?

So there are 32 picks in the first round, right? Generally, you'd expect to make a bit less than the guy picked before you, and a little more than the pick after you. One thing that causes signings to drag on is because it's easier to figure out what you're worth when both the guy in front of you and behind you are signed. That's called "slotted" - you're in a slot between two contracts. Some teams and most agents want to wait until their pick is slotted (though obviously, not everybody can).

Once a guy is slotted, it *should* be easy to figure out what a guy's worth - roughly split the difference between the guy in front and behind you. In this case, split the #5 and #7 contracts to get Andre signed at #6.

Couple problems with that - the #5 pick was a New York quarterback, and the #7 was given a big contract by a senile owner (Raiders). So the Bengals really, really don't like their slot. That would be understandable to an extent, but they're taking it beyond that - they're offering Andre about the same as last year's #6 pick, when the average pick is seeing about a 20% increase this year (meaning this year's #10 pick is getting about 20% more than last year's #10 pick). So Andre should figure on about 20% more than last year's #6. In this case, the Bengals are offering (supposedly) about the same as last year's #6. Some have claimed they're even offering less than this year's #8 pick.

People are frustrated with the Bengals because, as much as agents and owners haggle over money, both sides generally respect the slotting process, meaning that they fight a little for better incentives and try to push *within* the slot, but nobody in the business tries to offer less or demand more than the pick next to them (unless there's a QB involved, they generally get better deals). That's why it's a big deal that Mike Brown is "busting" the slotting process. On the other side, Michael Crabtree is demanding *more* money than the #7 pick, claiming that he's top-5 talent. People are frustrated with him too.

Without some sort of system, deals won't get done, because no agent wants to be the one who didn't get everything he could for his client. That's why this is such an important issue - the slotting system, even though it's not official, is the only thing that allows deals to get done. Count on next year being a total clusterfudge thanks to Mike Brown and Michael Crabtree.

[HairOnFire]

And therein lies the rub.

And you all know how much I like the rub....

Mikey is working his damndest to create an instantly disgruntled player.....

Why should Smith be "instantly disgruntled" simply because there's been no contract agreement? Hasn't his agent explained how this thing might go and how it's all just business?

Frankly, I have no real issues with the way Keels and Smith are conducting themselves during these negotiations, but I do think it's a little bit naive for them to assume there's no financial price to pay for the way Smith's career has been handled since...(wait for it)....even before he entered the draft process. And THERE'S the rub, because while the Bengals were placated enough to actually draft Smith, when other teams passed, it's fair to say the Bengals STILL have enough questions about Smith to make them reluctant to pay the type of money Keels is asking for....even if his demands seem justified.

So Brown "saves" a few million, but at the same time greatly increases the likelihood that Smith busts.

I'm betting it more than a few million. For example, Akili Smith's contract included more than 16 million dollars in incentives he didn't earn. Furthermore, due largely to the way their two contracts were structured Smith ended up earning more than 30 million less than fellow draft bust Tim Couch managed to squeeze out of Cleveland.

[HoosierCat]

Why should Smith be "instantly disgruntled" simply because there's been no contract agreement?

I didn't say he would be. That was in response to TJ's solution in which Smith eventually signs a deal he's not happy with and looks to leave at first opportunity.

[Sea Ray]

OK, so how is this all going to turn out?

First thing is Andre Smith has a lot more to lose here than Mike Brown. If he sits out he'll lose out on an entire year and his draft status is sure to drop, likely out of the first round. This would cost him tens of millions. All Mike Brown has to lose are a few games and we know full well that doesn't bother him.

I'd say he'll sign right around the Denver game. So what will the numbers look like? Anyone see Mike Brown caving? Not a chance. It'll be an incentive laden deal and Andre will have a difficult time earning the early incentives because he'll have a hard time getting on the field this year. The guaranteed money will pale in comparison with those taken around him.

So if that's the case then who's the idiot here? Andre Smith is mainly hurting himself by holding out. Unless he gets MB to raise his offer, there's little reason to continue to holdout.

So let's revisit this in a couple weeks and really see who gained by protracting this thing out.

[HoosierCat]

Breaking: Bengals bump off to Smith by $500 worth of Ohio lottery tickets.