How much Is Carson Palmer being overlooked??

[HAPPYJAQ]

Everyone is excited over the Bengals draft, and rightfully so. From top to bottom, I think it's easily the best draft in 10 years, if not longer. In looking around, I've noticed that nobody is really talking a lot about a certain Franchise QB (one of the very few in the NFL, I might add) who is coming back from a season-ending injury.

I know that record and market are a factor in the fact that Carson has been mentioned this offseason much less than, say, Tom Brady, but I think he's just as important to the Bengals success next season as Tom is to the Pats.

I kind of think this might be a blessing in disguise and could launch Palmer into a career-type year with a better running game, improved offensive line and deeper receiving corp than when he last played in '08. Even without Ocho (possibly), he's been working with our 3rd, 4th and 5th receivers extensively in Henry, Caldwell and Simpson, which is something he hasn't a chance to do with those specific receivers in years past. In shouldn't take him long to mesh with Coles and we still have the camps and the Summer practices/exhibiitions to go.

If he comes back even close to his '05-'07 form, it's better than having the #1 overall pick in the draft. I know a lot of people are concerned with the WR situation, but I believe Carson can make an average receiver good, and an above-average receiver great. If you want proof of this, compare T.J. between '01-03 against '04-now. Even look at Henry's stats over the duration of his career versus last season. I won't even mention "the other guy" again.

There might be threads out there regarding this, but with the draft we've had, I think this just might be the year that the Bengals truly surprise some people. In my mind, it'll all be because of what Palmer brings to the offense in his 7th year, after an agonizing year with Fitzpatrick at the helm.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Everyone is excited over the Bengals draft, and rightfully so. From top to bottom, I think it's easily the best draft in 10 years, if not longer. In looking around, I've noticed that nobody is really talking a lot about a certain Franchise QB (one of the very few in the NFL, I might add) who is coming back from a season-ending injury.

I know that record and market are a factor in the fact that Carson has been mentioned this offseason much less than, say, Tom Brady, but I think he's just as important to the Bengals success next season as Tom is to the Pats.

I kind of think this might be a blessing in disguise and could launch Palmer into a career-type year with a better running game, improved offensive line and deeper receiving corp than when he last played in '08. Even without Ocho (possibly), he's been working with our 3rd, 4th and 5th receivers extensively in Henry, Caldwell and Simpson, which is something he hasn't a chance to do with those specific receivers in years past. In shouldn't take him long to mesh with Coles and we still have the camps and the Summer practices/exhibiitions to go.

If he comes back even close to his '05-'07 form, it's better than having the #1 overall pick in the draft. I know a lot of people are concerned with the WR situation, but I believe Carson can make an average receiver good, and an above-average receiver great. If you want proof of this, compare T.J. between '01-03 against '04-now. Even look at Henry's stats over the duration of his career versus last season. I won't even mention "the other guy" again.

There might be threads out there regarding this, but with the draft we've had, I think this just might be the year that the Bengals truly surprise some people. In my mind, it'll all be because of what Palmer brings to the offense in his 7th year, after an agonizing year with Fitzpatrick at the helm.

The key word I see in your post about Carson Palmer is "If', and IMHO if that "If" is to happen, it's totally up to the offensive line. Their play has to improve from last season. If not, expect to see #9 on the injured list again.

[walzav29]

Pat Kirwan told me yesterday that Palmer is all set. I can't wait and this is going to be his best season.

[ArmyBengal]

I've heard many analysts during the draft make the comment about if the Bengals could protect Carson that he could have a great year. I've also heard it mentioned more than a handful of times since the draft. I really don't think that would come as a suprise to anyone to tell you the truth. If Carson is back 100% and the o-line gives him the time he needs, he's back to being one of the elite QB's in the game with a top 5 offense. If he's not healthy and the o-line blows, I expect more pictures of blood oozing from various body parts.

As Billy has already mentioned, it's all based on "IF's" at this point, but those "IF's" are better this year than last...

[gregstephens]

I've heard many analysts during the draft make the comment about if the Bengals could protect Carson that he could have a great year. I've also heard it mentioned more than a handful of times since the draft. I really don't think that would come as a suprise to anyone to tell you the truth. If Carson is back 100% and the o-line gives him the time he needs, he's back to being one of the elite QB's in the game with a top 5 offense. If he's not healthy and the o-line blows, I expect more pictures of blood oozing from various body parts.

As Billy has already mentioned, it's all based on "IF's" at this point, but those "IF's" are better this year than last...

Let's tack on a couple more big 'ifs', shall we? First, IF Fredo can get his gold-grilled, orange mohawked head out of his tail end, quit being a distraction, quit blowing routes, quit showing up your QB on tv, quit DROPPING THE FLIPPIN' BALL, then...

IF someone can stand up as a clear third receiver that's a dependable third down/slot option, then...

IF Jeremi Johnson doesn't try to eat his weight in cheeseburgers and picks up what was once a decent FB form, then...

IF JJ DOES try to eat his weight in cheeseburgers then, IF another suitable FB option surfaces, then...

IF one of our TEs emerge as both a decent blocking and receiving option, then...

These are all going to be key ingredients as to Palmer's success. It's not an simple as the health of his elbow, unfortunately, or even the (hopeful) improvement of the o-line.

[ArmyBengal]

Agree that there are a bunch of "IF's" in regards to the success of both Carson and the team, but it would seem to me regardless of all the other "IF's", if his health and o-line aren't fixed, the rest is a mute point. I'm just saying those two would be at the top of the "IF" list...

[walzav29]

It's going to happen. The Bengals will win the division. Just look at last season. Everyone just reshuffles the teams from the playoffs and make a prediction.

Pats

Jags

Cowboys

Redskins

Seattle

Tampa Bay

All these guys didn't return to the playoffs in 08 that were in 07. I'm not just going to say a Steelers/Ravens vs Cardinals/Eagles for next years Superbowl. It just doesn't happen.

[gregstephens]

Agree that there are a bunch of "IF's" in regards to the success of both Carson and the team, but it would seem to me regardless of all the other "IF's", if his health and o-line aren't fixed, the rest is a mute point. I'm just saying those two would be at the top of the "IF" list...

Oh, I agree completely on the ranking of the ifs. If that elbow is still broke, all else is lost. If the o-line become ole-line again, ditto.

However, I wouldn't put this offense back in the top five, or in the playoffs, if the other ifs aren't addressed.

[ArmyBengal]

So we agree to agree huh ??

[gregstephens]

It's going to happen. The Bengals will win the division. Just look at last season. Everyone just reshuffles the teams from the playoffs and make a prediction.

Pats

Jags

Cowboys

Redskins

Seattle

Tampa Bay

All these guys didn't return to the playoffs in 08 that were in 07. I'm not just going to say a Steelers/Ravens vs Cardinals/Eagles for next years Superbowl. It just doesn't happen.

Your argument actually works against you, however. The Pats didn't make the playoffs, but they still won eleven games. Not saying that's going to happen this year, but not saying it won't either. This isn't the NFC or the AFC West where you can win eight or nine games and guarantee a playoff spot. Being in the AFC North, the team has to win at least nine, probably ten to have a shot at the playoffs, not guarantee a slot.

This Bengals team will not win the division. I'd love it if they did, but they won't. It's a rebuilding year. They got a shot at second in the division if everyone stays healthy and pans out, but they still need that year to gel as a unit before they can unseat Pittsburgh and edge out the Rat-pidgeons.

[gregstephens]

So we agree to agree huh ??

Well, yeah, but, I...what?

Yeah, I guess we do.

But look at it this way. That's actually a rarity on this board. Most people like to pick each other apart...just b'cuz.

[ArmyBengal]

If there was going to be a year where we were to move solidly into 2nd within the division, this would be the year.

The Ravens lost some key players from their defense as well as coaches and the Browns just seem to be in total disarray.

Carson will only help this if the "IF's" come to fruition !!!

[Wraith]

I have pretty good confidence that somewhere between, Henry, Caldwell, Simpson, Urrutia, Purify, Cosby, and Brown we can find a decent third WR option, there is simply too much talent for everyone to be a waste (notice we are not depending on Cheech to be that option).

I have NO confidence that JJ can regain his form, I do however believe between Pressley and Fui Vakapuna that we can come up with a good FB option

I think it is reasonable that Utecht can rebound from last year to give us a receiving/blocking TE and if not we have Coffman and Sherry battling out at that position (I think Coates is a goner).

WE have a pretty decent four man rotation at DT and DE (when was the last time you can say that about a Bengals defense) Tank, Peko, Sims, Shirley/Harris/Macdonald at DT Odom, Geathers, M. Johnson, Fanene/Macdonald at DE. We have depth and talent at LBer with B. Johnson, Jeanty, Maualuga, Rivers, Jones, and Blackstock (each has started in the NFL and been productive except Maualuga) Jones is the only one over 28 years old in the front seven even two deep, how impressive is that? I believe before all is said and done, Roy Williams will be a Bengal and we will have Crocker, Lynch, Hebert, White, Williams, NDukwe as safety options that has to be the deepest best pool of safeties in the league. Corner we have depth problems (with just David Jones, Trent as backups) but Hall and Joseph are just coming into their own and have a ton of talent. Not only do we have a talent core of starters who are all VERY young, we also have depth at 10 of the 11 positions (David Jones) without a whole lot of downside. With the strides the defense made last year under Zimmer there is no reason we shouldn't expect a top ten defnse out of this unit (maybe top 5) so the offense doesn't have to carry all the burden.

If our offense could return to even 2007 levels and our defense achieves top ten status, we should win 10-12 games and compete for a division championship.

[Bearcat1975]

Carson is damaged as a QB. If not physically, then clearly psychologically. The only question is, can the 2009 incarnation of the oline restore Palmer's confidence.

Palmer is still relatively young. And he was born to be a QB. But he has taken a shellacking here with really only one good year to show for it.

This year is quite a crossroads for Palmer. I don't think he can take another year of beatdowns. But I also don't think he has been fully "Klinglerized" yet either. This year will make or break Palmer.

[ArmyBengal]

Do I want to see Carson take a beating back there this year ?? Of course not, but what if he does ?? Does that spell the end of Carson and make us start looking at drafting a QB next year ?? I don't think so. I don't think it is that obvious to be able to predict something like that. If Carson does get banged up, it will suck, but I hardly believe it will be the end of him.

[Wraith]

I think the "really only one good year" is a bunch of horsesh!t...pardon my language.

2008 Cincinnati Bengals 4 129 75 58.1 32.2 731 5.7 182.8 3 2.3 4 3.1 36 7 0 11 67 69.0

2007 Cincinnati Bengals 16 575 373 64.9 35.9 4,131 7.2 258.2 26 4.5 20 3.5 70T 51 8 17 119 86.7

2006 Cincinnati Bengals 16 520 324 62.3 32.5 4,035 7.8 252.2 28 5.4 13 2.5 74T 52 15 36 233 93.9

2005 Cincinnati Bengals 16 509 345 67.8 31.8 3,836 7.5 239.8 32 6.3 12 2.4 70T 43 9 19 105 101.1

2004 Cincinnati Bengals 13 432 263 60.9 33.2 2,897 6.7 222.8 18 4.2 18 4.2 76T 34 8 25 178 77.3

He is averaging 240 yards per game for his career with 107 touchdowns to 76 interceptions while racking up a career QB rating of 88.9. 2007 was a down year but a down year with 4100 yards 26 touchdowns and a QB Rating of 86.7 and a Completion % of 64.9 I will take. For the last three years the man has been healthy he has averaged better than 28 TDs and only 15 INTs. Um those career averages will land him in the hall of fame if he plays at that level for the next 8 years.

2005 AND 2006 were the best years a Bengal QB has EVER had. Oh and 2006 was AFTER his injury!

Last year he played in 4 games, two of them he was injured AND he played the following defenses with their overall defensive rankings. Balitmore (2nd ranked defense game played in a hurricane in Baltimore), Tennesee (7th ranked defense also in a hurricane, Ivan in Cincinnati), New York Giants (5th ranked defense was injured in the third quarter ALMOST won the game on the road took team to overtime), Dallas Cowboys (8th ranked defense, injured the entire game ALSO ALMOST won the game on the road). 3 out of the 4 teams he played against were in the playoffs, 3 out of 4 were also on the road.

So to review, 2005 and 2006 he made the Pro Bowl and had the two best seasons statisticly a Bengal QB has ever had. 2007 he had a down year where he ONLY threw the ball for 4131 yards, 26 TDs, had a 64.9 % completion rate and a 86.6 QB Rating. 2004 was his first season playing football in the NFL and last year he only played in 4 games, two were in a hurricane and 2 were played while injured on the road at the two best teams in the NFC going into the season. You have the gall to say he only had one good year! Seriously? by what definition do you categorize one good year, I would like to know.

[Bearcat1975]

I think the "really only one good year" is a bunch of horsesh!t...pardon my language.

2008 Cincinnati Bengals 4 129 75 58.1 32.2 731 5.7 182.8 3 2.3 4 3.1 36 7 0 11 67 69.0

2007 Cincinnati Bengals 16 575 373 64.9 35.9 4,131 7.2 258.2 26 4.5 20 3.5 70T 51 8 17 119 86.7

2006 Cincinnati Bengals 16 520 324 62.3 32.5 4,035 7.8 252.2 28 5.4 13 2.5 74T 52 15 36 233 93.9

2005 Cincinnati Bengals 16 509 345 67.8 31.8 3,836 7.5 239.8 32 6.3 12 2.4 70T 43 9 19 105 101.1

2004 Cincinnati Bengals 13 432 263 60.9 33.2 2,897 6.7 222.8 18 4.2 18 4.2 76T 34 8 25 178 77.3

He is averaging 240 yards per game for his career with 107 touchdowns to 76 interceptions while racking up a career QB rating of 88.9. 2007 was a down year but a down year with 4100 yards 26 touchdowns and a QB Rating of 86.7 and a Completion % of 64.9 I will take.

He is a good QB. But you are not taking into account the "Kitna Factor" I like to call it. Its when we are being blown out and our QB ends up throwing for 250-300 yards against prevent. Palmer stats are pretty impressive though, for any QB. But stats only tell part of the story. 2005 and MAYBE 2006 are the only Palmer years I would call good years. And you know what, I'd bet even Palmer would agree.

For the last three years the man has been healthy he has averaged better than 28 TDs and only 15 INTs. Um those career averages will land him in the hall of fame if he plays at that level for the next 8 years.

Not without some playoff appearances it won't.

2005 AND 2006 were the best years a Bengal QB has EVER had. Oh and 2006 was AFTER his injury!

After his first injury, you mean. I agree though, those were a good 2 years for Palmer.

[HoosierCat]

I've been on the fence about Carson for a while now.

There's no doubt he's by far the best QB the Bengals have had since Boomer...but then, that's not saying a whole hell of a lot.

The guy he reminds me more and more of with each passing year is Drew Bledsoe. Who was a pretty good QB, but not a name you hear when discussing the all-time greats.

[Clackwoods]

Getting back to the purpose of this thread I would like to add the following:

Carson Palmer

Andre Smith

Rey Magualuga

Keith Rivers

That is four first round talent guys that we are adding to our team. Two of those guys are FRANCHISE players on offense and the other two are cornerstones for any defense in the league.

I am pretty damn sure we will be greatly improved this year.

[Bearcat1975]

Getting back to the purpose of this thread I would like to add the following:

Carson Palmer

Andre Smith

Rey Magualuga

Keith Rivers

That is four first round talent guys that we are adding to our team. Two of those guys are FRANCHISE players on offense and the other two are cornerstones for any defense in the league.

I am pretty damn sure we will be greatly improved this year.

2 of those guys have yet to take a snap in the NFL. 1 of them isn't even signed yet. "Cornerstone and Franchise" is a pretty bold statement.

[gregstephens]

But I also don't think he has been fully "Klinglerized" yet either.

Ok, I'm throwing the flag on this one. Unsportsmanlike conduct, fifteen yards, loss of down.

You can never, EVER, lump Carson Palmer into the same category/conversation/galaxy as David 'Don't call me Maxwell Q.' Klingler.

There was nothing to 'Klinglerize' either. Klingler was a bust from day one. If Palmer breaks both legs tomorrow and you have to shoot him on the track, you can't ever put these two together.

[walzav29]

I'm sure all of you knew in 2005 the Bengals had a shot, because Pitt finished 15-1 and the Ravens were 9-7 in 2004. Pitt won the SB in 05, but as we all know not the division. I understand we're all scarred from Bengal beatings, but Marvin had to rebuild this team on the fly. You'll see.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2004/

[Bearcat1975]

There was nothing to 'Klinglerize' either. Klingler was a bust from day one. If Palmer breaks both legs tomorrow and you have to shoot him on the track, you can't ever put these two together.

Disagree here. He was never given a supporting cast, then came the concussions, then he was a bust. Was Akili Smith a bust from day 1? I'd agree with that.

But Klingler? He never had a chance here. Peyton Manning would have busted under those circumstances.

When I say Klingerized, I mean when a QB has taken one blow to the head too many. And again, I don't think Palmer is there yet. But this season is huge for Palmer.

[Wraith]

Quick name one QB that has had success in the NFL running a run and shoot system in college (note: Warren Moon ran a traditional offense in college at Washington). Point is, Klingler's skills in college would have never translated in the NFL, see Andre Ware, David Carr, Colt Brennan, Graham Harrell ect.

[Bearcat1975]

Quick name one QB that has had success in the NFL running a run and shoot system in college (note: Warren Moon ran a traditional offense in college at Washington). Point is, Klingler's skills in college would have never translated in the NFL, see Andre Ware, David Carr, Colt Brennan, Graham Harrell ect.

I remember this knock on Klingler even early on. And there may be some merit to it, I admit.

But coming out of college, one thing that couldn't be argued was that Klingler was like a surgeon with the football. Accuracy was off the charts and always the first thing mentioned by the draftniks at the time.

So it is a given to say that Klingler had many of the raw talents you like to see as a QB. I believe if Klingler had been given the Carson Palmer treatment (sit him the first year to learn, give him a good mentor, give him a supporting cast, then ease him in), then we as Bengals fans may have seen a very different David Klingler.

As a matter of fact, I suspect the disaster that was David Klingler is the very reason why Carson Palmer got the "Carson Palmer Treatment" in the first place.

But to say that Klingler was a deadly accurate, Heisman Trophy winning inevitable bust from day 1? Have to disagree there.