Do you have faith in Carson ??

[Whur CHad At?]

To answer the question: Yes.

[Walrus]

Yes, I still have faith in Carson. It's easy to pick out flaws in a player but I see Carson's flaws as far more difficult to pinpoint than most. I guess injury would be the biggest. It's probably the homer in me, but I dismiss that to circumstance -- the injuries he's dealt with would've happened to anyone.

As for other perceived flaws, the team is so rarely in a situation where Carson can lead them to last-minute win (since they're usually down by more than 1 score) that it's hard for me to call him "not clutch".

His leadership is sometimes questioned but everyone here knows he'd have to be a "ringleader" to win with the clowns surrounding him. Can anybody think of a QB who would've had the personality to handle the distraction parade of Ocho, TJ, Henry, Levi, etc?

For the past 2-3 seasons the running game has been in a downward spiral, coincidentally aligning with the decline of the O-Line. I'm on board with those who say it doesn't matter much if the receivers are "elite" -- if there's a legit threat in the running game and the pass pro is solid Palmer will shine again and all the doubters will forget they ever had any second thoughts.

[COB]

This thread made me think of a video I saw a few months ago.

In the middle of a colts game, Jeff Saturday must have questioned the play calling in the huddle or something. As soon as they came off the field, Manning gave Saturday a very loud vocal beat down. Told him to block and leave the play calling to others. It got so heated some of the other linemen had to step in to calm things down.

Carson is not that kind of leader, so someone else needs to step up and keep everyone in line. Willie tried. But for some reason he didn't get the backing of the coaches or the front office, and our lunatic fringe was allowed to flourish, and do and say whatever they wanted.

End result - we sucked. Truly what ails the Bengals is lack of leadership. Nothing being quantified at the combine can fix us.

All Carson needs to be a truly elite quarterback is an offensive lineman with a Ray Lewis personality. Complement Carson's physical skills with that type of leadership and we'll be competitive. Until then, forget it.

[rwalling]

This thread made me think of a video I saw a few months ago.

In the middle of a colts game, Jeff Saturday must have questioned the play calling in the huddle or something. As soon as they came off the field, Manning gave Saturday a very loud vocal beat down. Told him to block and leave the play calling to others. It got so heated some of the other linemen had to step in to calm things down.

Carson is not that kind of leader, so someone else needs to step up and keep everyone in line. Willie tried. But for some reason he didn't get the backing of the coaches or the front office, and our lunatic fringe was allowed to flourish, and do and say whatever they wanted.

End result - we sucked. Truly what ails the Bengals is lack of leadership. Nothing being quantified at the combine can fix us.

All Carson needs to be a truly elite quarterback is an offensive lineman with a Ray Lewis personality. Complement Carson's physical skills with that type of leadership and we'll be competitive. Until then, forget it.

Great post. Whit's the natural leader. Smart enough to be a coach now, big as a house and just enough of a mean streak to demand respect. He's your guy and Carson will back him.

[ArmyBengal]

I will simply say that most people have bashed or at least doubted Carson's leadership since his days at USC and I for one will simply say that I absolutely disagree. He's handled the situation here in Cincinnati better than anyone could possibly hope for. He takes responsibility for the play of the entire offense, even when it appearant that it wasn't his fault. It has been mentioned many times about how early on when Chad tried to do things "his" way and run a different route than the one Carson called that Carson grabbed him by the face mask and told him not to do that sh*t again.

Could it be that he's just had more than a handful of douchebags to deal with and some people just don't listen ??

[BengalByTheBay]

This thread made me think of a video I saw a few months ago.

In the middle of a colts game, Jeff Saturday must have questioned the play calling in the huddle or something. As soon as they came off the field, Manning gave Saturday a very loud vocal beat down. Told him to block and leave the play calling to others. It got so heated some of the other linemen had to step in to calm things down.

Carson is not that kind of leader, so someone else needs to step up and keep everyone in line. Willie tried. But for some reason he didn't get the backing of the coaches or the front office, and our lunatic fringe was allowed to flourish, and do and say whatever they wanted.

End result - we sucked. Truly what ails the Bengals is lack of leadership. Nothing being quantified at the combine can fix us.

All Carson needs to be a truly elite quarterback is an offensive lineman with a Ray Lewis personality. Complement Carson's physical skills with that type of leadership and we'll be competitive. Until then, forget it.

My first reaction to this post is to ask when the game was. If it was this season, I'd say that another way to look at the situation is that perhaps Manning was frustrated and handling it not so well. Manning's play wasn't exactly "Manning-like" for much of the year. Getting in a screaming match with one of your key linemen may not be the best idea. While I suppose there are many examples of leadership, most often I see the "whoever yells the loudest" type of leader pointed out as the best. I'm not sure that's always the case. I could see, for example, a veteran C getting a little pissed that his QB thinks he knows everything just because he's football royalty when, sometimes, he could be completely wrong. In any event, I believe few attributes are as overplayed as "leadership." It means different things to different people and works differently on different teams. I think Palmer actually has asserted leadership in the style you suggest (on Monday Night Football for example) and it's viewed by people watching the Bengals as "disarray" rather than an example of leadership.

[Esiason#7]

I have absolute faith in Carson Palmer.

[COB]

I think Palmer actually has asserted leadership in the style you suggest (on Monday Night Football for example) and it's viewed by people watching the Bengals as "disarray" rather than an example of leadership.

I remember that game. And you are right about the interpretation. When a winning team does it, it's called good leadership. Let them lose the game and it's disarray. I remember Carson asserting himself some. I think he needs to do it more. The more subdued type of leadership works and works well. But my belief is that the '05 through '08 Bengals were uniquely situated to require the more vocal, in-your-face type of leadership. By that I mean we had too many immature jackasses.

I believe some of those issues have been fixed. Carson should be about perfect for the team they're putting together now. And I like what I just read about Whitworth in the post above. When John Henderson was looking for a fight last year, Whitworth stood up to him (and almost got his eyes gouged out when Henderson employed 11-year-old girl fighting tactics). It was good to see someone on the Bengals refuse to be bullied. In the Darwinian world of the NFL, that qualifies as great leadership.

[HairOnFire]

As soon as they came off the field, Manning gave Saturday a very loud vocal beat down. Told him to block and leave the play calling to others. It got so heated some of the other linemen had to step in to calm things down.

Carson is not that kind of leader.....

Isn't he? Did I imagine the blowup with Chad during the Patriot game? And what was that little shouting match about? Play calling and route running, right?

Willie tried. But for some reason he didn't get the backing of the coaches or the front office, and our lunatic fringe was allowed to flourish, and do and say whatever they wanted.

I'd put it differently. Willie never played shy whenever there was a microphone in the vicinity but that's not the type of fiery "this is MY team" leadership you're talking about, is it?

[COB]

My first reaction to this post is to ask when the game was.

Sorry Bay, I can't remember when it happened. I assumed it was last season because that's when I saw it, but it could have been a prior year. I'll see if I can find it.

[BengalByTheBay]

My first reaction to this post is to ask when the game was.

Sorry Bay, I can't remember when it happened. I assumed it was last season because that's when I saw it, but it could have been a prior year. I'll see if I can find it.

Not a big deal -- my only point was that if it works and you win a Super Bowl that's one thing, but if it's during a season ending loss, that's another. Agree about Whit though -- it's nice to see a Bengal doing something other than getting run over or blocked into the hospital by Hines Ward. There's no doubt that "toughness" is something that hasn't been abundant for us.

[ArmyBengal]

A key to leadership is knowing your personnel. If you don't know what type of personality you are working with, it's hard to determine what leadership style to take. Some people only know how to get things done if they have someone yelling at them with an "In your face" type of leadership. Other people would fall apart if you were to handle them in that manner, but if you were to just explain what you want in a calm manner, you'd get the results you desire. You have to know your audience in order to motivate and lead them.

I think Carson knows the players on this team and how to motivate them. The problem I see is that you can't lead a turd and all Carson can do at that point is hope the light comes on for some of them.

[Bearcat1975]

To answer the question, if they give him protection, this team has zero worries at the qb spot. If they protect like last year, not even a hoss like Roeth would be standing by week 6.

Actually, the Steelers oline gave up more sacks then the Bengals oline.

But Ben is more durable, more elusive, and is not a pure pocket passer.

[Jet23]

Can anyone on this board think of one specific game where Palmer has done that?

The Broncos game when St. f**kface couldn't do the one single thing he's paid a stupid amount on money to do properly. But I guess that Carson's fault maybe - for not being enough of a leader.

Put Brady on this team back in 2001 - he does sweet FA in his career. Good players are good players (and Brady is one of the best ever) but they only ever see success when they're in the right environment.

And don't forget the 2006 Steelers game when Carson drove them down the field for a bunny field goal that was missed by our latest franchise player.

[HairOnFire]

And don't forget the 2006 Steelers game when Carson drove them down the field for a bunny field goal that was missed by our latest franchise player.

Well played, sir. Well played indeed.

[gregstephens]

Can anyone on this board think of one specific game where Palmer has done that?

The Broncos game when St. f**kface couldn't do the one single thing he's paid a stupid amount on money to do properly. But I guess that Carson's fault maybe - for not being enough of a leader.

Put Brady on this team back in 2001 - he does sweet FA in his career. Good players are good players (and Brady is one of the best ever) but they only ever see success when they're in the right environment.

And don't forget the 2006 Steelers game when Carson drove them down the field for a bunny field goal that was missed by our latest franchise player.

Terrific...there's two. I can think of four off the top of my head he marched the Bengals into enemy territory in the last two minutes with a chance to catch up and himself blew it...three by pick, one by fumble. So there's 2-4 in clutch situations? Yeah, that's Manning and Brady territory right there.

[HairOnFire]

Yeah, that's Manning and Brady territory right there.

If you're attempting to prove Carson Palmer doesn't measure up against two first ballot Hall of Famers I'd say you're there.

Decide for yourself if that's a point worth making.

[COB]

I'd put it differently. Willie never played shy whenever there was a microphone in the vicinity but that's not the type of fiery "this is MY team" leadership you're talking about, is it?

Now that you mention it, my opinion on Willie's leadership is all based on things he said to the press. I never saw him grab ahold of Chad on the sideline and straighten him out. Another prayer unanswered. I think the coaching staff needed to push someone to be that kind of leader, to take control of the team by force. They didn't, and Chad took control of it by force of his personality.

I recall the times you folks have mentioned Carson asserting himself during games, and I confess that I had forgotten those things. But even though he tried, he apparently didn't try enough. Because the team that should be his team has been an emotional basket case for the last three seasons.

[Pidge]

My first reaction to this post is to ask when the game was.

Sorry Bay, I can't remember when it happened. I assumed it was last season because that's when I saw it, but it could have been a prior year. I'll see if I can find it.

It was 2006, their SB yr. I only know this because I watched that America's Game thingy.

[James_Brooks21]

I have been quiet for the last year but I had to respond on this subject, Carson Palmer is average at best now. I have seen since the injury Carson overthrow wide open receivers on a normal basis, set people up with bad throws and just collapse and fall when he is touched in the pocket. That's just stupid to me for people to debate if he is better then Big Ben, how many playoff games have Big Ben won compared to Carson? Stop drinking that Carson Palmer kool aid, even Fitzpatrick gave us something at the quarterback position that Carson will never give us and that is the ability to make something out of nothing with his ability to get away from the rush and turn it into positive yards. I give the Bengals two years before they are looking at a new quarterback, Palmer is one of the problems to me with all those throws bouncing off of the ground. Somebody had the nerves to say that he makes average wide receivers good and good receivers excellent are you kidding me, you need to watch game film or something. I'm hoping that Carson proves me wrong and makes me look like a fool and is relevant once again as a NFL Quarterback and they are mentioning him with the top tier quarterbacks. I'm hoping this Jerome Simpson situation turns out good because to me that's a fireable offense drafting him in the second round. I don't know who scouted him but if he does not do anyting this year they need to be called on the carpet.

[membengal]

That's plain ignorant.

Was Roeth's knee caved in during his first playoff game? On his first throw? Was Roeth saddled with an inconsistent running game during those years? A sieve-like defense?

No?

Then shut the f**k up with the comparison. Roeth is a wonderful quarterback, and any team would be glad to have him, but there is no f**king way its fair to Palmer, given all that has worked against him since the great knee cave in of playoffs following '05 and conclude that he is "average at best". And use Roeth as an apples to apples comparison.

f**king stupid.

[HairOnFire]

Now that you mention it, my opinion on Willie's leadership is all based on things he said to the press. I never saw him grab ahold of Chad on the sideline and straighten him out.

Let's face it, on the field of play Willie Anderson was no more emotional or fiery than Brian "Quiet Storm" Simmons. Steady lead by example types to be sure, but Andersons willingness to be a spokesperson to the press shouldn't be mistaken for the type of lockerroom leadership you're talking about.

I recall the times you folks have mentioned Carson asserting himself during games, and I confess that I had forgotten those things. But even though he tried, he apparently didn't try enough.

You can always argue a player should do more but look at the tightrope he was forced to walk. Chad was an established star player when Palmer was drafted, and from day one Palmer embraced the task of bonding with Chad and his emerging sidekick TJ. Everybody clicks and Palmer becomes the franchise QB everyone hoped for. And remarkably, his relationship with his star receiver seems remarkbly normal, all things considered.

Then along comes Kimo and everything changes. Palmer does come back and quickly produces remarkable numbers, but somehow he doesn't look like the same player he'd been. Meanwhile, Chad stops being a football player and becomes a performer. Almost overnight he quickly becomes a parody of himself. Over the top instantly becomes over the line. And just as the circus comes to town and won't leave Palmer goes down again...thereby negating his ability to lead in the only way he's comfortable. By example. He becomes a wounded spectator who can do no more than watch as his fellow stars fall all over themselves attempting to cash in by cashing out.

[Walrus]

Now that you mention it, my opinion on Willie's leadership is all based on things he said to the press. I never saw him grab ahold of Chad on the sideline and straighten him out.

Let's face it, on the field of play Willie Anderson was no more emotional or fiery than Brian "Quiet Storm" Simmons. Steady lead by example types to be sure, but Andersons willingness to be a spokesperson to the press shouldn't be mistaken for the type of lockerroom leadership you're talking about.

I just want to chime in on the Willie thing. I never heard any knock on Willie's leadership style/abilities until now. This past season the players on Baltimore's O-line couldn't say enough good things about what Willie brought to the table as a leader -- teaching them in the film room and on the field. I'm confident he was the same kind of leader for the o-line here.

That said, it seems like you guys think he might've had some room to lead guys like Chad when they acted up on the field and to that I say you're simply off-target. That's a coaches job or Carson's job. Off the field, I'm pretty sure Willie reached out to guys outside of his position group, but on the field I doubt that would've been well-received. So to speak.

[HairOnFire]

I just want to chime in on the Willie thing. I never heard any knock on Willie's leadership style/abilities until now. This past season the players on Baltimore's O-line couldn't say enough good things about what Willie brought to the table as a leader -- teaching them in the film room and on the field. I'm confident he was the same kind of leader for the o-line here.

I don't think it's knocking the guy so much as pointing out how Willie Anderson falls into a rather large group of players who prefer to lead by example rather than with demonstrative displays of passion. In it's own right it's actually an admirable quality and I agree it is indeed a form of leadership, but many will argue on a leaderless team you can't have a roster filled with nothing but quiet lead by example players. Because somebody is going to step into the vacated spotlight and assume the role, and they'll do so if for no other reason than the financial opportunities that come with the attention.

And like COB mentioned, if a bad actor steps into the role the Bengals lockerrrom has historically lacked the type of fiery behind-the-scenes enforcer who can hold players like Chad accountable.

[James_Brooks21]

That's plain ignorant.

Was Roeth's knee caved in during his first playoff game? On his first throw? Was Roeth saddled with an inconsistent running game during those years? A sieve-like defense?

No?

Then shut the f**k up with the comparison. Roeth is a wonderful quarterback, and any team would be glad to have him, but there is no f**king way its fair to Palmer, given all that has worked against him since the great knee cave in of playoffs following '05 and conclude that he is "average at best". And use Roeth as an apples to apples comparison.

f**king stupid.

Here we go with another case of a keyboard tough guy, enough with all of the curse words because I can guarantee if you saw me not one of those curse words would come out of your mouth directed at me. Second of all ignorant is when you can't make a point without cursing that's ignorant. Second of all if you read about five of the previous threads comparing Big Ben to Carson and Brady to Carson you would comprehend what I was addressing keyboard tough guy. Pittsburgh had an inconsistent run game this year, they were saddled by injuries to Parker and Mendenhall so what are you talking about. Plus Big Ben offensive line was not that good this year keyboard tough guy. Big Ben knee might not have been hit but he was almost killed on a motorcycle with broken bones in his face plus I have seen him take some vicious hits that have knocked him out of multiple games. But hold on just wait you will have a million excuses for Carson just waiting when he comes out this year looking like the garbage that he is.