John Thorton's blog

[Bearcat1975]

Inside the NFL

The other day I talked about what NFL teams do after they return from the Senior Bowl. I have never been inside of a front office meeting so I was just speaking from what I would see or hear. So I decided to ask a member of an NFL front office that same question. I called Charles Fisher to find out what is going on right now. You may know him as former Bengal Charles Fisher. He was the 33rd pick of the 1999 Draft. My college roommate for four years and best friend.(that sounds like high school right?) Still lives here in Cincinnati. Currently he is the Northeast scout for the Seattle Seahawks. I think he would be a great Director of College Scouting, Director of Pro Personnel, someday GM. Anyway, I asked him a few questions....

JT: What are most NFL teams doing right now? Seems like a dead period.

CF: Before the Senior Bowl, we met and put our player board together. All the work that us scouts did all year was compiled and we put grades on all the players. We look at the juniors coming out and all of the seniors. We look at character and talent and put a grade on guys. Then we go to Senior Bowl and watch those guys. We go in with an open mind of course. But we try to see if our grade matches up with how these guys perform. Then we go back and see if our grade matched up or if we need to go back and look at their college tape again if something else popped out at us. Our grades never change though. We just add to it. This is the last time we see these guys in pads.

[JT: What if you have a guy who plays average all year and balls out at the Senior Bowl? What do you guys think then?

CF: Well, there's always some truth to their performance. That happens all the time. Guys will play OK all year then come in and have a great Senior Bowl. It makes us go back and study them again. See if we missed something. If we didn't miss anything, then we try to look further into it. It happened this year with ya boy B.J. Raji. He was probably a low 1st rd pick coming in. Had a great week, now TV people are putting him in the Top 10. I don't know. He's probably somewhere in between, but teams may just take his Senior Bowl performance and ride with that. That's just an example, it happens the other way too. Some WR's we think are good, go to Senior Bowl with a high grade and then they drop a lot of balls. So we go back and look at tape and look a little closer. Then you might see him double catching balls, or he is just better than everyone and gets easy catches.

JT: So does the Senior Bowl hurt or help?

CF: We just learn more. The kid could have been a bad system, on a bad team, or he is an individual. His college coaches could have sucked and he didn't get proper coaching but he's a good athlete. Guys do come here and have their stock drops though. The tape doesn't lie. You better be ready.

JT: So what about the combine? How important is that?

CF: Very. Mostly for health reasons. We get to see em in shorts and they get physicals. Of course we wanna see them work out. But again, this all adds to our grade that we have on these players already. Gotta stay true to your grade. Good workouts will separate two guys with the same grade. But football players will always shine, bad workout or not. It's our job to sift through the BS.

JT: So good Senior Bowl and good combine is good for the player right?

CF: Yes. But if we look at your college tape after all of that and you didn't dominate in college, uh oh. Are you fooling us or not? So it get dicey. But most times you can tell by then.

JT: Do you guys look at mock drafts?

CF: Yes. All the time. But only after we set our own board. We use the mocks to go through different scenarios. Cincinnati needs OT's right? Everyone knows that. But they could trade up or down and get a different guy so it changes. Or they get one in free agency and draft some other position.

JT: What do you mean?

CF: We know what each team needs already. So we will just look at the different names that will be gone or still there when we pick. We also know which mock drafts are true. Some NFL teams can't keep their damn mouths shut and they leak info to these experts every year. That's why you see teams get jumped right before they pick.

JT: You think teams follow mock drafts and make their picks off of them?

CF: Not sure. Can't speak for everyone. The Ohio State kid last year was prime example. Kiper had him #5 and the Jets pick him #6. Good looking kid. He may turn out to be great but if you watched five of his games last year at OSU, he didn't make any plays. So teams get caught up in hype sometimes.

JT: Not the Seahawks though right? You guys don't make bad picks.(Joke)

CF: Ha ha. Yea we do. We all get fooled, but if you do all the work you can to scout a guy and still get fooled, what can you do?

JT: What about character guys?

CF: Come on man, you know how I feel about that.

JT: What?

CF: Anybody can get in trouble. Doesn't mean he's a bad guy. But don't take a bad guy and think he is gonna change. I don't care how good he is. You see it all around the league.

JT: Alright, I'm getting sleepy. I'm going to hit you up every week for some draft talk. This blogging is hard work. See you in Vegas. Safe flight.

CF: Alright man. Get some sleep. Safe flight. Don't misquote me because you are sleepy.

JT: You know I will.

http://bengalscentral.typepad.com/my_weblo...e-nfl.html#more

[HoosierCat]

Good read. Seeing as how the Bengals always seem to get jumped, I wonder if they are one of those teams that can't keep their yaps closed...?

[ArmyBengal]

I made the same point in another thread about either shutting up about what you are going to do or go over board talking about how bad you want someone you have no intention of taking. I think it was a good read as well. I honestly wonder where the Bengals staff falls in that description of things ??

(please refrain from the easy joke there)

I'm curious which mock drafts they look at the most or put the most stock in ?? Funny they look at them though.

[HairOnFire]

Nice update on our boy Fisher. I can't recall a high Bengal draft choice who disappeared as completly as Fisher seemed to. Then again, his NFL career lasted less than 30 snaps, and there was never the slightest hope for a recovery.

Odd comment about how a prospects grade never changes from day one. Yes they add information. Yes they sometimes go back and review game film if they see something that doesn't match their initial grade. And yes players rise and fall all the time. But a prospects initial grade is NEVER changed?

I did like his remarks about character though. Don't judge too harshly because everybody, especially young people, can find themselves in trouble. But don't expect anyone to change.

[HairOnFire]

Good read. Seeing as how the Bengals always seem to get jumped, I wonder if they are one of those teams that can't keep their yaps closed...?

Always seem to get jumped?

[HAPPYJAQ]

Good read.

I always wondered what happed to Charles. He seemed like a good prospect. The 2nd round has always been boom or bust for the Bengals. I think the Bengals disguise their true intentions all the time with players. I never thought they were high as it appeared on Ellis last year and he looks like he might be a bust. The marijuana arrest wouldn't have gone well in Cincy. I am more than happy with Rivers, at this point.

[ArmyBengal]

I was thinking they really wanted Ellis as well, but also figured he would be gone as New Orleans wanted him FAR more than the Bengals did. I made the comment that the Bengals were going to just sit and see what happens knowing Rivers would be sitting there and sure enough, there he was. Rivers was also my mock draft pick in the first last year. I think it was the smart pick, still like it, and if we can get another LB this year, it will be great...

[HairOnFire]

I never thought they were high as it appeared on Ellis last year and he looks like he might be a bust.

I was extremly high on Ellis, as were many Bengal fans, but you're right....the Bengals never showed the same interest. In fact, they made it very clear from the start they had little or no interest in moving up regardless of how inexpensive the actual cost of such a move turned out to be. Furthermore, after the draft Lewis made several remarks about Ellis not being the best fit or for that matter the highest rated player on their board. Lewis stated flatly they had Rivers higher on their board and hinted about several others as well.

As for this year, I'm in favor of a move down if a trading partner can be found, but I have zero desire to move up even if it results in another highly debated yet decidely non-tragic jumping.

[ArmyBengal]

Yep, I want nothing to do with moving up in the draft. #6 is a good position for us. We will get an impact player that should immediately help this team.

Trading down ?? Yeah, all over that one !!!

That being said, this will be the year they decide to move up in the draft and piss all of us off to no end !!!

[COB]

I never thought they were high as it appeared on Ellis last year and he looks like he might be a bust. The marijuana arrest wouldn't have gone well in Cincy.

I wanted them to trade up to get Ellis. I hardly saw him this year down in NO. He got busted for marijuana? I can hardly think of an activity that serves an NFL player more poorly than smoking marijuana. The apathy, the sapping of your motivation, listening to crappy stoner music. It all adds up to getting your ass handed to you on the field. Maybe that's what's wrong with Ellis.

[ArmyBengal]

I to would have been more than happy trading up to get either Dorsey or Ellis. Funny how sims had a better rookie season.

Here's to hoping he has continued improvement and becomes a force in the middle of our D-line !!!

[BengalszoneBilly]

Inside the NFL

The other day I talked about what NFL teams do after they return from the Senior Bowl. I have never been inside of a front office meeting so I was just speaking from what I would see or hear. So I decided to ask a member of an NFL front office that same question. I called Charles Fisher to find out what is going on right now. You may know him as former Bengal Charles Fisher. He was the 33rd pick of the 1999 Draft. My college roommate for four years and best friend.(that sounds like high school right?) Still lives here in Cincinnati. Currently he is the Northeast scout for the Seattle Seahawks. I think he would be a great Director of College Scouting, Director of Pro Personnel, someday GM. Anyway, I asked him a few questions....

JT: What are most NFL teams doing right now? Seems like a dead period.

CF: Before the Senior Bowl, we met and put our player board together. All the work that us scouts did all year was compiled and we put grades on all the players. We look at the juniors coming out and all of the seniors. We look at character and talent and put a grade on guys. Then we go to Senior Bowl and watch those guys. We go in with an open mind of course. But we try to see if our grade matches up with how these guys perform. Then we go back and see if our grade matched up or if we need to go back and look at their college tape again if something else popped out at us. Our grades never change though. We just add to it. This is the last time we see these guys in pads.

[JT: What if you have a guy who plays average all year and balls out at the Senior Bowl? What do you guys think then?

CF: Well, there's always some truth to their performance. That happens all the time. Guys will play OK all year then come in and have a great Senior Bowl. It makes us go back and study them again. See if we missed something. If we didn't miss anything, then we try to look further into it. It happened this year with ya boy B.J. Raji. He was probably a low 1st rd pick coming in. Had a great week, now TV people are putting him in the Top 10. I don't know. He's probably somewhere in between, but teams may just take his Senior Bowl performance and ride with that. That's just an example, it happens the other way too. Some WR's we think are good, go to Senior Bowl with a high grade and then they drop a lot of balls. So we go back and look at tape and look a little closer. Then you might see him double catching balls, or he is just better than everyone and gets easy catches.

JT: So does the Senior Bowl hurt or help?

CF: We just learn more. The kid could have been a bad system, on a bad team, or he is an individual. His college coaches could have sucked and he didn't get proper coaching but he's a good athlete. Guys do come here and have their stock drops though. The tape doesn't lie. You better be ready.

JT: So what about the combine? How important is that?

CF: Very. Mostly for health reasons. We get to see em in shorts and they get physicals. Of course we wanna see them work out. But again, this all adds to our grade that we have on these players already. Gotta stay true to your grade. Good workouts will separate two guys with the same grade. But football players will always shine, bad workout or not. It's our job to sift through the BS.

JT: So good Senior Bowl and good combine is good for the player right?

CF: Yes. But if we look at your college tape after all of that and you didn't dominate in college, uh oh. Are you fooling us or not? So it get dicey. But most times you can tell by then.

JT: Do you guys look at mock drafts?

CF: Yes. All the time. But only after we set our own board. We use the mocks to go through different scenarios. Cincinnati needs OT's right? Everyone knows that. But they could trade up or down and get a different guy so it changes. Or they get one in free agency and draft some other position.

JT: What do you mean?

CF: We know what each team needs already. So we will just look at the different names that will be gone or still there when we pick. We also know which mock drafts are true. Some NFL teams can't keep their damn mouths shut and they leak info to these experts every year. That's why you see teams get jumped right before they pick.

JT: You think teams follow mock drafts and make their picks off of them?

CF: Not sure. Can't speak for everyone. The Ohio State kid last year was prime example. Kiper had him #5 and the Jets pick him #6. Good looking kid. He may turn out to be great but if you watched five of his games last year at OSU, he didn't make any plays. So teams get caught up in hype sometimes.

JT: Not the Seahawks though right? You guys don't make bad picks.(Joke)

CF: Ha ha. Yea we do. We all get fooled, but if you do all the work you can to scout a guy and still get fooled, what can you do?

JT: What about character guys?

CF: Come on man, you know how I feel about that.

JT: What?

CF: Anybody can get in trouble. Doesn't mean he's a bad guy. But don't take a bad guy and think he is gonna change. I don't care how good he is. You see it all around the league.

JT: Alright, I'm getting sleepy. I'm going to hit you up every week for some draft talk. This blogging is hard work. See you in Vegas. Safe flight.

CF: Alright man. Get some sleep. Safe flight. Don't misquote me because you are sleepy.

JT: You know I will.

http://bengalscentral.typepad.com/my_weblo...e-nfl.html#more

Well it's apparent to me he blogs much better than he plays.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I can hardly think of an activity that serves an NFL player more poorly than smoking marijuana. The apathy, the sapping of your motivation, listening to crappy stoner music. It all adds up to getting your ass handed to you on the field. Maybe that's what's wrong with Ellis.

Really! It may be worse for your long-term health, but I'd certainly rather *my* players were snorting a bowl of coke before the game. Ricky Williams or LT? You decide.

[HairOnFire]

I'm picturing Michael Phelps on a Wheaties box.